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DavidJE
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New Oud Website
I thought I'd mention that I published a new website on the oud recently. It's a relatively small site. I didn't want to duplicate too much of
what's already on other oud sites, but thought it could be fun and useful to share a couple of insights related to tuning, notation, and makam music
in general. If any of you have any suggestions or comments I'd be happy to hear them. I'm sure I'll add to the site in the future. Here it is:
http://www.daviderath.com/oud/
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Jody Stecher
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Your site is well organized and easy on the eye with the words presented so as to be easy to read. Well done! I found 3 small errors. I can mention
them here or u2u if you prefer.
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Brian Prunka
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These aren't really 'errors' but I found the way that you wrote the neck diagram and note names to look backwards.
For a few reasons, I think it makes more sense to reverse the way you wrote it, so that the first, highest pitched string is at the top of the
diagram:
1) Music is written that way
2) if you are looking at the oud from a playing position, that is where the string is in your view
3) given the "closed" and "open" ends of your diagram, the natural implication is that the "closed" end is the nut, in which case the strings are
reversed regardless of the orientation of the viewer. If you wanted to keep the highest string on the bottom, you should do a left-to-right mirror
image so that it looks as if you are looking at an oud that someone is playing.
Hopefully that makes some sense. Obviously, someone who is familiar with the oud will understand your meaning, but since you are aiming this at
beginners it might be confusing the way you have it.
It is (maybe) worth pointing out since you are discussing "Kiz" tuning, that if you combine "kiz" and "Arabic" tuning, then you can simply read
ottoman scores down an octave. I actually do this frequently with a nay player I know.
Nice work, this site will undoubtedly be a good resource and helpful to many. Can't have too many oud sites!
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Gocauo
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What he said!
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Jody Stecher
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I hadn't seen the diagrams when I wrote my previous comment. Oh, my goodness! yes you must reverse the diagrams. You've got it backwards from how the
rest of the world makes fingerboard diagrams. What you've got can lead to broken strings and broken ouds!!
the three errors I found were about facts, not presentation.
I have now found another fact error (not the fingerboard diagrams)
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DavidJE
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Jody...you can certainly mention any errors here. Please do. 
Brian...thanks for your thoughts on the diagrams. For me, I always think of the base string at the top, as that's how I see it when I look down at my
oud...base string first...since I don't actually bend completely over and look at it with my head upside down. And, as a viewer, I would also see the
base string at the top. That's why in the diagram I have a single string at the top but the doubles going down. Anyway, I will do something to make
it clearer...
And, good point on the Kiz tuning thing...I had realized that a while back myself.
Thanks guys!
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DavidJE
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Jody...I didn't see your post. Ok, I didn't realize there was a standard convention I was going against! I've changed it.
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Jody Stecher
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Well alright then. Here's what caught my eye so far:
There is controversy about whether Çeçen Kızı is a folk tune or Cemil Bey’s composition. Read about it here
http://www.bu.edu/pdme/59-2/
If it is a folk tune, it may be Greek, or Kurdish, but not from Chechnya, despite the title, and possibly not Turkish. And if it is a folk song, it
must have words, otherwise it cannot by definition be a song. A song means sung words. So Cecen Kizi is a hüseyni oyun havası but not a folk
song. Unless of course you can provide words. You’d be on much safer ground calling it “hüseyni oyun havası attributed to Cemil Bey.”
or “folk style melody attributed to Cemil Bey.
Lower frequencies are spelled “bass” not “base”. This is universal. The two lower courses on a six course oud are the bass strings not the
base strings. It matters because “base” has a different meaning.
Cins/Djins/Jins, however one chooses to spell it, is singular. The plural in Arabic is Ajnas. I don’t know what it is in Turkish. You are using
cins for both plural and singular. Ending with s does not indicate plural here.
Turkish and Arabic music is virtually never written in the same key. The *fingering* on oud may be the same but the key means what is indicated on the
page to the left of first measure.
Turkish music is not written a fourth above what is played. It is written a fourth above what is heard. this matters especially to someone used to
reading music for arabic oud. G is written. D is heard. But C is what is fingered.
From this point of view one does not find a note written as a C and played as a G. One finds a note written as C played as F and heard as G! Whew it
sure seems complicated when reading and writing this. I think it's worth getting right though.
On your oud gallery page you show an oud of Theodorakis yet on the resources page you do not list him as a maker.
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DavidJE
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Thanks Jody!
I've read the page you linked to about Çeçen Kızı before. Since it's somewhat controversial I debated with myself on what to call it.
Perhaps I'll just call it an Oyun Havası in the makam Hüseyni. I know it's often attributed to Cemil Bey, but it seems unlikely that he
actually wrote it, based on that article.
I'll fix the bass/base and Cins issues. (EDIT: It seems that "cins" is used for both singular and plural in whatever Turkish music sources I have
seen.)
I'm not sure I follow that last bit regarding Turkish notation. "G is written. D is heard." I agree. But if D is heard than D is what is fingered.
On an Arabic oud the same POSITION would be a C. But for a Turkish player reading Turkish notation a D would be fingered. Also, if turkish music is
written a fourth above what is heard, it is also necessarily written a fourth above what is played. What is played is what is heard, is it not?
I need to add Theodorakis to the resources section...among others!
Thanks again.
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DavidJE
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And...regarding the key...what I meant is that in both Turkish and Arabic music particular makams are nearly always, or always, written in the same
key. So in Turkish notation Rast is always written in the key of G, and in Arabic notation it is always written in the key of C.
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abc123xyz
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Congratulations! It's a beautiful site, well laid out, and I even like the color scheme you've chosen. ¦·)
However I have to quibble with the statement that the oud "is pictured in ancient hieroglyphs and 5,000 year old Syrian artwork".
What are actually pictured there are instruments belonging to the lute family, that is to say chordophones with their strings running in a
plane parallel to the soundboard, with a distinct neck and body, etc., but not ouds in any useful sense of the word.
Those lutes had soundtables of hide, stick necks that passed almost all the way through the soundbox passing through slits cut in the hide, and
strings attached at their bottom end directly to the end of that same stick. The majority of the earliest lutes of this type were
long-necked lutes, unlike the short-necked oud, and seldom had more than three strings, which where adjusted with tuning thongs, pegs not yet
having been invented. In short, organologically, they belong to a branch of the lute family quite distinct from that of the oud. Not only do we have
artistic representations of this class of instruments, but a well preserved example from c. 1490 B.C.E. was found in the tomb of the musician
Har-Moshe, descriptions and photos of which are available online.
Now there do indeed appear in some ancient-egyptian depictions, besides this long-necked type of lute, a short-necked one which shares with it all
features except for its long neck, and which has, on that basis alone, sometimes been claimed as the ancestor of the oud. However, even if
we were to concede that it was distantly ancestral to the oud, which I'm not sure we should, it would still be inaccurate to call it an oud itself.
It's also true that this class of ancient lutes is supposed to be ancestral to all instruments of the lute family, which does include the oud, but
which includes no less the guitar, banjo, pandoura, kobza, viola, sitar, rabab, chitarrone, strumstick, bouzouki, pipa, balalaika, cittern, mandolin,
etc., but which instruments are never claimed to date back to pharaonic times, and, properly speaking, we can't place the oud that far back either.
In fact nothing we can properly call an oud appears until well into the common era.
David
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hans
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Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  |
G is written. D is heard. But C is what is fingered.
From this point of view one does not find a note written as a C and played as a G. One finds a note written as C played as F and heard as G!
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This is why i resist my teacher's pressure to learn reading notes. I can't even get it clear what's what.
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread :-)
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Jody Stecher
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Hans, it's very straightforward with written Arabic music. You read a C, it's also called "do", you put your finger on the C place on the
fingerboard. You sound the string with your risha and what is heard is C. This is Rast position.
In Turkish music you read a G, ( it's called do, not sol) you put your finger where you would for C on an Arabic oud (still Rast) and the sound
comes out D. not so simple.
And this, David JE , is what I was getting at in my previous post.
but if you just think of the pitches as Rast and Dugah and Segah/Sikah and so on there is not much confusion.
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journeyman
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Nice looking site David. Good luck with its development. There is another Arabic tuning that is fairly common as well; the F tuning: FAdgcf.
roypatterson.com
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Brian Prunka
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There is another correction: in western music there are 12 chromatic pitches, an octave would be the 13th note in the series. You have this as 11 and
12.
Spellings (not counting double sharps/double flats)
1 A
2 A#/Bb
3 B/Cb
4 B#/C
5 C#/Db
6 D
7 D#/Eb
8 E/Fb
9 E#/F
10 F#/Gb
11 G
12 G#/Ab
(13 A)
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DavidJE
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Thanks abc123xyz. I knew it was a stretch, but you're right. I've fixed it.
Jody...I've always heard G referred to as Sol, and C as Do in Turkish music. My teachers have referred to the notes as what is written on the sheet,
both in the A, B, C convention and in solfege.
Journyman...I may add that tuning soon. Thanks.
Brian...I'm mildly dyslexic (fortunately there is spell check!), and I often screw up the order of letters in any sequence. That's the only reason I
can imagine I left out the E!!! It was troubling me at the time, but I came up with the idea that it must be the repeated note at the octave to make
12. Anyway, thank you.
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Jody Stecher
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| Quote: Originally posted by DavidJE |
Jody...I've always heard G referred to as Sol, and C as Do in Turkish music. My teachers have referred to the notes as what is written on the sheet,
both in the A, B, C convention and in solfege.
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it depends on how you look at it. the pitch sol is called sol. But on the page it looks like do. And the conventional page position for sol is called
Do! and when it is heard it is RE. I can deal with all of this so long as I don't think about it.
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Omar Al-Mufti
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Good job Dave!
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DavidJE
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Jody,
I'm pretty sure I disagree with you, and I think you're making this way more complicated than it is.
Previously you wrote: "G is written. D is heard. But C is what is fingered." That cannot be correct. If D is heard than D was fingered. You can't
finger a C but hear a D. It's just not possible. When you play a C you hear a C. When you play a D you hear a D. I think that's the cause of the
over-complication...suggesting that you can finger a C but hear a D.
The Turks nearly always write music in the same key for each makam. When they write a G/sol on the score they typically play (in Bokahenk
transposition) a concert pitch D/re. But they do not call it "do", and they do not call it "re"...at least not in my experience. They call it as it
is written. So when they write a G/sol they call it a G/sol/rast. The only issue is that they typically PLAY something different...a D/re. But that
difference is only a difference in concert pitch. If you were only playing from Turkish scores with Turkish players using Turkish tuning, you
wouldn't have any problems. I THINK what you are doing is mixing Arabic and Turkish pitch names inappropriately, which is making the whole matter
more confusing than it needs to be.
You wrote: "The conventional page position for sol is called Do! and when it is heard it is RE." I have never seen or heard this. The conventional
page position for sol/G is called sol/G in both Turkish and Arabic music. When it is played by an Arabic musician a concert pitch G is played. When
it is played by a Turkish musician, a concert pitch D/re is played. But the Turks do not call it "do".
Maybe there could be an exception, if people were not playing from a score and they were using relative solfege. But I have never seen or heard this.
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Jody Stecher
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My comment about fingering is from the point of view of someone who played Arabic oud first and whose music reading skills, such as they are (basic)
are in accordance with how the rest of the world uses the treble clef. My difficulty in reading Turkish notation is subjective. It's my personal
reaction.
My comments about the difference between Turkish notation and the rest of the world, including the notation used in Arabic music is objective. I may
have expressed myself inadequately but what I'm describing is How It Is.
When I play the position called Rast on an Arabic oud it is found at exactly the same place on the fingerboard that Rast is gotten on a Turkish oud of
equal scale length. The pitch on the Turkish oud is one tone higher than on the Arabic oud. We agree about this. And this difference of one tone
causes me no trouble at all.
When this pitch is indicated on a page of written Arabic music it is represented by the note C that is directly below the staff. When the pitch Rast
is indicated on a page of Turkish music it is represented by the second line from the bottom of the five line staff. It is the place that the rest of
the world calls "G' or sol. This is the spot used to indicate the pitch called Nawa/Neva in Arabic written music. I am not making this up.
Please ask Mavrothi to explain if this is not clear. I've done the best I can. I like your website. Keep up the good work.
jody
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Brian Prunka
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Transposing instruments are not uncommon. Clarinets, trumpets, horns, English Horn, and nearly all saxophones are written in a different key than is
produced. Guitars, basses, xylophones, piccolo flute are written in a different octave than they sound.
What is unusual is for the pitch system itself to be "transposed", which is the case for Turkish music. However, this makes sense for several
reasons.
1- At the time the notation was adopted, there was no fixed reference pitch. Therefore, no matter what note was chosen for "rast", it would
have been arbitrary and "transposing" relative the the actual performed pitch. This is no less true in Arabic music, which at the time the standard
"C" was adopted, the actual performed pitch would have more likely been somewhere between A and B. This was discussed at the 1932 congress prior to
the standardized adoption of Western notation. The Ottoman delegation decided that minimizing ledger lines and 'centering' the range on the staff
were preferable, while the Arab delegation decided that proximity and similarity to Western music (considering that C is the "home" key of western
notation) was preferable.
2- Turkish music is commonly transposed further by the performer, making the pitch representation on the page further removed from the concert pitch.
It makes sense that the two would be considered separate and musicians would be expected to read "relatively" rather than "absolutely" if
transposition was a common expectation.
At this time, Arabic music is commonly performed at the pitch notated, but this is a case of conforming to a pitch standard to match the music; as it
was originally implemented, the Arabic system was also transposing (and it is still relatively common for Rast to sound a different pitch than C on
recordings/performances).
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DavidJE
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Jody...I'm pretty certain I understand this as I have both Turkish and Arabic tuned ouds, and I read from both Turkish and Arabic scores
(appropriately). Also, I definitely agree with everything you wrote in your last post.
Brian...that's very interesting. I did not realize that there was no fixed reference pitch when the notation was adopted. And, it's interesting to
know why the Turks and the Arabs decided to use the references they did. Thanks for that!
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Jody Stecher
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David: excellent. Let's put the matter to rest.
Brian: You are right. I knew all that but was trying to keep things as simple as possible in my messages.
Anyone: knowing this doesn't help me. It still makes my eyes spin in two different directions when I see (what to me is ) a G, finger (what to me is
) a C and hearing a D. I feel like my poor little head will explode. But if I put the alphabet aside then I am untroubled. The melody goes up and down
as it does and the meaning of the notation is clear. Within one system of music I can read in the key of C for instance and play in D or E flat or
transpose to pretty much any key at all. I do this reflexively focussing on the melodic shape. But when it comes to Turkish oud I am vulnerable to
thinking. And that's when my head starts spinning.
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DavidJE
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Jody,
It's definitely very confusing at first. Probably because it wasn't explained to me correctly from the beginning (before I started with Mavrothi), it
took me a good year just to wrap my head around it! It would be a lot easier if the Turks did just write music the same way as with Arabic/Western
music.
I'm not at your level, and still can't really transpose to any key yet. But eventually I want to be able to do that...just need to make practicing it
a priority among all the other things! I definitely think that is the ultimate point to get to, where it really doesn't matter what key something is
written in. Anyway, thanks for all of your thoughts.
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majnuunNavid
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Fantastic resource David!! I would appreciate any Turkish tuning insights you might have as well.
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