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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
Registered: 6-4-2015
Location: Germany / Leipzig
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Oud handmade german style
Hey guys !!
I'm new to this forum and want to say hello 
I built/restored some instruments before, so I have some experience. The oud is my next personal challenge.
I found a very detailed instruction (in german  !!) and of course I'm
building an oud right now.
It would be very cool if some of you guys could give me feedback on my thoughts.
Basically it will be a classic arabic oud construction with a few elements of european luthiery. My target will be to use as less as possible electric
mashines.
The oud will come with 19 walnut ribs, spruce top/braces, tineo blocks, walnut neck & palisander peg box/fingerboard.
Some parts are already finished so I will upload some images soon.
Thanks for your attention
bye
Hibari
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abc123xyz
Oud Junkie
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Hello! Welcome to the forum.
Would that instruction happen to be online? If so, could you provide the link?
Quote: Originally posted by Hibari-San  | | The oud will come with 19 walnut ribs, spruce top/braces, tineo blocks, walnut neck & palisander peg box/fingerboard. |
Is tineo the plant described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weinmannia_trichosperma ?
This is my first time ever hearing of tineo. I'm curious how you came across its wood, and what made you decide to use it, if you don't mind telling
:·)
David
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
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Hi David,
are you from germany or able to read german ? (I thought about translating this instruction)
Anyway heres the link
http://www.oudinfo.de/Uberblick/Oudbauen_als_Hobby/oudbauen.htm
Yes thats it ! I think its sometimes called indian apple tree, too. Tineo was my choice for a japanese shamisen that I built some time ago.
I wanted hardness about 1000 lbs (janka) and something exotic. So I ended up with it and it was a pleasure working with it 
So my good experiences with it and the fact that I have few pieces laying arround for some years, made me use it for the blocks. (already done)
Maybe its a bit heavy though. 
Thanks for your interest
Nice day
Hibari
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
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So here are some images like promised.
The blocks are not sanded and i will not smooth em anymore because the glue will stick better.
I made a mistake by placing the screws at the wrong place, so there are 2 holes after screwing back.
But I dont think that this will make any problems. 
I decided to use machine heads on a traditional peg box so the proportions are adapted.
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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abc123xyz
Oud Junkie
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Not me personally, but my family left the Kingdom of Württemberg over a century ago to move to Texas, and I have relatives in München, so I can just
barely make out written German.
It was your description of the site as "very detailed" that made me willing to brave the German though, as I'm always eager to dig up any extra nugget
of information, no matter where I have to go for it, lol.
I'm sure that would be widely appreciated, as it is a very nice site.
That would be my only concern; they usually make the blocks out of lighter stuff.
Your oud's pegbox has a beautiful curve, by the way.
David
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
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I'm pretty sure there will be be a few frowning on my peg box, but I like it though. I'm still wondering why I ve never seen anything like that,
except Mr Naor's.
Anyway I started to build up the body and have glued my very first two ribs 
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
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The body is growing very well. Only 7 ribs remaining.
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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SamirCanada
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you are doing very well!
those tuning pegs are as you say controversial. The main drawback is that people find them much heavier and they can throw off the balance of the oud.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Geared pegs also take longer to tune than friction pegs (due to requiring more turns), though the improvement in stability may make it worthwhile in
some cases. Well-fitted friction pegs work very well once you are used to them. There is a much greater learning curve in getting the hang of the
pegs . . . which newcomers often consider as an intrinsic flaw rather than just having to learn a new skill.
Nice work overall. I wouldn't want those pegs on my oud, but at least your approach looks fairly unobtrusive. As Samir said, I would be concerned
about the weight, though honestly I just have a gut aesthetic reaction as well.
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
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thank you guys for your honest answers !!
Yeah your both right with the extra weight, I realized that quickly after assembling the box.
So I hope at the end it will be balanced due to the heavy blocks, even if the complete Oud will be a bit heavy weight.
By the way I'm totally familiar with the traditional friction pegs, I get used to it on jap. shamisen and chinese erhu ( which are with 3/2 pegs)
and I have to tune them everytime before I play and sometimes during a session.
So my thought was to be able to play 2 days on one tuning (like my guitar) & I think I can reach that target with those machine heads.
 Can't wait to get it done !
Oh and the next oud will definitely be with traditional pegs.
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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stos
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hello!
just to add that it is possible to play two days without tuning again an oud. 
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
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oh really !? that would be very nice because I like the look of the traditional pegs.
I mean if someone could assure me that the pegs have almost the same stability like machine heads,
I would instantly build another peg box for this oud.
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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SamirCanada
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As long as the oud in tune with itself...
I mean after the strings have settled on my oud I can sometimes pick it up after 2-3 weeks of not having played and it will still be in tune.
It may not be in tune to play along with other instruments but it will be in tune with itself and that's good enough for me these days.
but yes, I find sometimes up to 4-5 days without tuning is not impossible even when playing along a recording or with a band.
yes the standard oud pegs are actually wonderful when they are properly fitted.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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The stability of the traditional wooden tapered pegs depends a lot on how well seasoned both peg and pegbox woods are as well as their quality and
suitability for the application - strong, hard, close grained, straight grained woods (such as fruit woods like plum) being best for the pegs. Boxwood
can be good for pegs but it takes forever to season properly.
The pegs must be uniformly smooth and well fitted i.e. with a tighter fit at the larger shank diameter side of the pegbox than at the smaller end.
With shallow tapered shanks (30:1) pegs are less likely to 'pop out' with humidity changes than steeper tapered shanks often used by oud makers (16:1
say). Smaller diameter peg shanks allow for finer tuning.
Besides most luthiers can (or should be able to) make their own wooden pegs and so ensure tight quality control over manufacture.
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
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Thank very much guys for the detailed explanations !!
I admit I didn't knew about oud pegs being so stable, although I'd be able to produce oud pegs I prefer to buy them.
I will build a new peg box & neck.
So thanks again !!
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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It is perhaps worth noting also that the wood of the sides of the pegbox should be a bit softer than the wood of the pegs so that it will yield
slightly under compression to afford a tighter, smoother grip on a peg once the peg has been 'bedded in'. This is also the basic principle applied to
engineering plain journal bearings where a hard steel shaft runs in a softer bronze bearing.
Lubrication (dry soap) of the peg bearing surfaces may also help smooth peg action if required.
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
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Alright thank you so much Mr Downing, but its just illustrated reversed in my instruction.
It says the peg box itself, has to be as hard as the pegs or harder to avoid the pegs to "scuff" into the wood. (sry for my engl.)
So now I have both made of palisander the box and the pegs.
I hope I dont have to build a third peg box for this one oud. 
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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jdowning
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Good luck!
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
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Thanks !
Can somebody please tell me why the oud does not come with a clasp at the bowl end nowadays ?
I almost finished the bowl (last 2 ribs) and its time to plan the mirror, but then I stumbled over the clasp bowl end in Mr Downings "Old Oud-New
Project" - oud.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8488&pa...
I'm also familiar with this part on mandolines & lutes, but wondering if there would be some disadvantage
if built on an oud bowl end.
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
Registered: 6-4-2015
Location: Germany / Leipzig
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Hey guys,
the body of the oud is finished and the clasp is attached.
Due to my failure of not correctly following the molds markings the body turned out larger than it should be.
At the widest section it measures about 43 cm !!!!
It gets even worse the high quality spruce top I wanted to build in,
doesn't fit that gargantic body.
So I'm forced to use lesser quality one which I have laying around.
After all this oud turns more and more "controversial" so I decided to use the
controversial peg box as well.
(after finishing the proper peg box) 
Hopefully the next oud will get more traditional.
Images to follow...
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
Registered: 6-4-2015
Location: Germany / Leipzig
Member Is Offline
Mood: contented
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Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Non conformance with the mold is a common problem for first time oud/lute bowl builders (I call it 'ballooning' - a cumulative error due to the ribs
not being fitted in contact with the mold profile as work proceeds resulting in a wider bowl than planned).
If you want to make use of that high quality spruce top you could always glue strips of extra material to the edge of the blank cut from your lesser
quality sound board material ('cheeks'). Widening a sound board in this manner is common traditional practice found on both lutes and ouds. Indeed
sound boards made up from multiple strips (up to 6 in some cases) are found on some of the old high quality ouds. Two piece sound boards is a
relatively modern concept promoted by the luthier supply industry.
The clasp looks a bit on the heavy side to me so should be tapered towards the extreme ends so that it blends with the ribs and does not create a step
in the sound board profile.
Nice precise workmanship.
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
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Ah thank you Mr Downing !! I'm relieved to hear that "ballooning" is nothing new.
Yes, the problem why I still cannot use the selected top is that they're different types of wood. The high grade is sitka (AAA) and the lower one is
engelmann (A) spruce which is much brighter than the other. But I'm almost done with the engelmann top, the other one has to wait for the next oud.
Multiple sound boards sounds plausible for old ouds, I think it was hard enough to get slow growing spruce wood back then. Especially in the oriental
regions.
I will follow your advice for the clasp, besides I now found an earlier thread from theodoropoulos where you explained how to proceed.
Thank's again for taking the time and helping me out !
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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There was never a problem for early European luthiers, be they lute or violin makers, to obtain the highest quality sound board woods. The woods cut
in the Alpine districts were selected during the winter period when the logs were being slid down the mountains in ice chutes. The best logs were
identified as they would 'sing' due to friction induced vibration as they moved and were marked for distribution the luthier trade. The manufacture of
instruments such as lutes and violins was big business by the 16th and 17th C. Such timbers would also have been exported from Europe via the
established Mediterranean trade routes if not otherwise available within the forests of the Ottoman Empire.
So the multiple piece sound board was unlikely to be due to a shortage of high quality wood in earlier times but must have been a deliberate action by
the great luthiers (such as the Nahats) to create sound boards with better acoustic properties than is possible with a one or two piece soundboard
(wood can vary a lot even within the same tree cross section).
Today - unlike in the pre-industrialised eras - high quality sound board material is increasingly difficult to obtain due to over harvesting of the
old forests and much, I suspect, is now sold sawn from logs without concern for avoiding grain 'runout' (due to spiral tree growth) and then graded
mostly on cosmetic appearance. A good time to reintroduce multiple piece sound boards perhaps?
Note that the sound boards of early lutes were not made from spruce (particularly North American Sitka spruce!) but from species of true fir. I am not
sure but the early ouds may have had cedar sound boards (not North American Western Red!) - species such as Cedar of Lebanon once available as high
quality wood in those days before the ultimate devastation brought about by centuries of overharvesting and consequent disease.
The early luthiers are to be envied for their choice of woods!
Your oud should sound just fine with its spruce sound board.
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
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Oh wow ! Thats quite a lesson in luthier history.
I heard about luthiers/builders behavior is the same like gold diggers, if they find a source of affordable, high grade sound board material, they
keep a close secret.
So I should be lucky to live in germany/austria, we have extra slow growing spruce tree in the cold mountains, which provides one of the best woods
for sound boards
in world. Although I only used american spruce till now, because I want to increase my skills first.
Btw today I attached the neck to the bowl. Seems working nicely.
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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