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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
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Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  | | Quote: Originally posted by Mike | Brian,
I believe you misunderstood Greg. First and foremost, Greg replied to Dreamz as a moderator of these forums, which he takes seriously...and for that,
I am beyond grateful. As a moderator he helps maintain standards of communication by members when using the forums. Greg was taking into consideration
Dreamz' possible breach of proper etiquette on public forums, as well as protecting him from possibly being in breach of privacy laws that vary widely
between the many countries where the forums are read. He is also protecting me in this matter as well, as the owner and publisher of these forums. I'm
actually surprised that you are ok with somebody posting actual screenshots of private emails or texts. I think you know better than that. Also, in no
way whatsoever did he ask him to remove the text that he wrote recounting his negative experience. He only asked him to remove the actual screenshots
of "selected" private emails or texts between himself and Faruk or whoever is sending the emails on his behalf. He didn't in any way "censor" his
complaint. He actually wrote that Dreams, and I quote, "...may have a perfectly good reason to be upset."
Thank you Dreamz for removing those screenshots and heeding what Greg asked you to do. Believe me when I tell you that Greg has years and years of
experience (I don't want to say how many years or else I may be in breach of proper etiquette and privacy laws...j/k Gregor) and knowledge of business
ethics, broadcasting and publication law and is a good judge of the standards I have come to expect of forum members. I have actually had the good
fortune to have met him in person, and know this to be absolutely true. By the way, I too am of the belief that you should not have posted images of
private emails or texts. You are free to share your negative experience though, and again, in no way did Greg try to censor your complaint, and I
think you understood that to be true as well.
Finally, in many cases, Greg contacts me to discuss possible problems. That is not always possible due to time differences, and on the occasions where
he has to make a value call without contacting me, he does so as my representative and with my total support. I ask that all members respect that.
Throughout the years there really has not been too many instances where we have had to intervene. That, in my estimation, is a testament to the
quality of character of the active members on these forums.
Mike |
Fair enough, and I understand why you might be concerned about legal ramifications as the owner of the forum. Thank
you.
Please forgive me if I disagree very strongly that Dreamz was guilty of any ethical violation or that customers have any ethical requirement to
refrain from disclosing the contents of official communications from businesses, barring any explicit agreement to that effect. If the business says
"I will give you a discount on the condition that you not disclose that information", or something like that, it is different—the customer has
agreed to conditional privacy. Likewise, it is different if there is a business-to-business communication—there the business is not involved in a
public activity. But when a business interacts with the public, those interactions become public presumptively. You are
forgiven. :-) Just kidding BP. Agree to disagree about the posting of screenshots of actual emails. Everything else you said I for the most part agree
with.
I don't in any way doubt your appeal to Greg's authority in these matters. But to whatever extent the laws vary on this point around the world, it has
no bearing on the underlying ethical question.
Businesses are inherently public entities, and as such, their interactions with members of the public are also public, subject only to the privacy
interests of the customer, not the business. These are not "private emails" from the standpoint of Turunz or his employees, they are only private
from the standpoint of the customer. Again...agree to disagree about the posting of screenshots of private emails on a
privately owned forum where most members (you being an exception) have made up screen names. I’m ok with Mike’s Oud Forums acting like the Yelp
dot com for potential oud customers, but I don’t want screenshots of private emails.
Do you really think that a business has a right to insult and berate their customers without the customer being able to cite such behavior due to the
"privacy" rights of the business? Of course not. It is of course necessary that the customer be permitted to supply
such proof of behavior as is available. Otherwise, the customer has mere assertions, which the business owner can dispute. This serves nobody. So
of course Dreamz's complaint has been censored. That would be true if this were a court of law. It is not. It is a
privately owned messageboard or forum. Perhaps there are good reasons for this, as you say. Yes, most importantly to
CMOA. But it is not right to say that it hasn't been censored. He (apparently) supplied proof of his claims, essential to substantiating his
complaint and was asked to remove it. You put the word “apparently” in parentheses. Honestly Brian, I did not see the
actual screenshots. I know you wrote you didn’t see the screenshots either. Greg did. In his estimation, he was not only protecting me, but also
protecting Dreamz. I trust Greg’s reasoning for that, and that is as much detail as I think is necessary to go into regarding that.
One of the tests of an ethical position is to consider its wider ramifications for society. It seems quite clear to me that the effect of my position
is to encourage businesses to be on their best behavior when interacting with the public. The converse position shields businesses from their
behavior and leaves customers with little recourse when abused or taken advantage of. I agree with you about your position
encouraging businesses to be on their best behavior. That’s not what is being argued. What I don’t know enough about is email privacy laws, and
you may very well know more. I am no expert, but I will tell you this. I would rather not find out the hard way. Nobody wants anybody to be taken
advantage of. Therefore, Dreamz has been allowed to share his experience, just not the screenshots.
If you want to say "due to misguided laws around the world, we need to be on the safe side and refrain from posting screenshots of emails without
explicit permission", that's totally understandable, and I get it. Yes I do. And if Greg has advised you that this
is the case, then I'm sure he is correct and you should trust him.Yes he has, and yes I did.
But I've not seen from you or Greg any ethical argument against disclosing official messages from a business to a member of the public in the course
of their business, just the dubious assertion that these are "private emails"—an assertion that I consider refuted above. You may want to use a better word than dubious bud.
Anyway, this is way off topic at this point. We'll have to agree to disagree. I can agree to that.
As always, I greatly appreciate all you've done in providing this forum for the oud community. I'm sure that the incredibly friendly and polite
atmosphere of this forum is due in large part to your influence. Thanks BP. I appreciate that bud. It's rare that a
forum avoids rancor so assiduously; it seems safe to assume that it's not a coincidence or that oud players are just a naturally friendly bunch (maybe
so, but still). So perhaps it is a wise choice for the health of the forum, I don't know. Did you say wise? Can I have you
speak to my wife? But seriously, I would hope that is the wise way to go. I may have to revisit the board rules and regulations. That would make life
a lot easier. Remember when my only rule was to not talk smack about Farido. The good old days.
Personally, I hold Mr. Turunz in high esteem as a maker based on the ouds of his I have played. He also has made an effort to make more affordable
instruments available, a nice gesture. I am not defending (or opposing) Dreamz's claims in any way, merely defending all of our rights as customers
to relate our experiences with businesses, a right I was disturbed to see challenged here.I totally get that BP, and I'm
sure everybody appreciates you having their back.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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Fair enough—I didn't mean it from a legal standpoint, which I agreed varies widely. From an ethical standpoint, I do think it is dubious, but you
are right to concern yourself with the legal side.
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1061
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hello all
make a long while i hesitated to write my experiences with Mr Faruk. The point he is able to make really great sounding instruments and my experiences
with him also have very positive issues in my oud trajectory.
But reading how he treated our fellow member and how i have been last time i dealt with him i think it deserves a post.
To be fair I will write the 3 experiences I had with Mr Faruk.
First one was just perfect as a customer, and believe me I was really an annoying customer. It was in 2008, Mr Faruk was real gentlemen, a bit rough
if I wrote to much emails but at last he followed my asking. It was my first upgrade instrument so I was uncertain on my choice, he understand that
with patience and I got a perfect instrument.
Business was here of course, our visit to the workshop was on the day he was just finishing to demonstrate me a custom double...What more natural, it
would be stupid to reproach...At least to this point of the experience.
2nd experience was more strange. A turkish tuned oud i ordered in 2009, i received with delayed by dhl after many message, really instance, to sold me
a turkish braced with varnished. I always wondered if it was an instrument he kept on the bench, maybe a customer didn't want. Anyway, not a big deal.
Once the package opened, it was a long fingerboard oud..i asked for a short fingerboard oud. And a buzzing which occured on the 3rd strings NOT from
the fingerboard but I never understood from where it came exactly. It comes and go until nowadays. Not too loud and not so disturbing. I wrote him
about this 2 point...just got a despising answer explaining me i din't know how a turkish oud should sound...i followed also lesson with a turkish
teacher !!
3rd one was more recently around 2012 and turned terrible, really very disappointing. I took directly at his workshop a reduced price instrument i
tried while passing there and which i liked really very much.
Once back in France...Bump ! The soundboard just bumped resulting in a total unplayable instrument higher than the first position. This came from a
very, too much flexible soundboard. 1.3 mm thickness with the usual very thin Turunz bracing. THe oud just cannot stand any degree of humidity higher
than the stable 50% of Istanbul. I made a video to show Mr Faruk, received kind apologize and he promised he would changed it. In the video I was
giving measurement to explain that it was really the soundboard bumping and not a matter of fingerboard thickness. We agreed i make a try with a local
luthier to sand down the fingerboard to try to correct the issue. It doesn't wotk of course but Mr Faruk was still convinced it was a problem that
would be solved by sanding the fingerboard. Just as if he cannot trust another professional of luthery.
We agreed by email on an exchange, I made the trip advising him of my travelling. Once there..No reduced priced oud ready for an exchange. And
wait...What you mean by an exchange ? The oud is dirt and blabla bla...this oud doesn't have any problem (humidity in my area at this period
75%..Istanbul 50%...this sensible oud make Mr Faruk think i was lying ..Check back the video in his office..He didn't even looked at it 30 seconds).
Finally no exchange no refund no repair. Just nothing. I felt i have been duped . He just changed his mind. There come the point of the business
thing. I agree with the one who write before ther is a prepaiement Turunz and a postpaiement Turunz. This was not a matter of finishing and I could
just hang the oud on the wall while returning to France.
Fortunately a friend introduced me to another luthier in Istanbul who accurately assume the job by opening the soundboard and take off some wood to
force concavity to the soundboard. This was needed in addition to the sanding of the fingerboard that had been leveled to the level of the soundboard.
This luthier was also absolutely not surprised by this problem he met several time in his experience. I will not give his name because it's not a
matter of saying this one is better than this one or blabla anything we don't mind in this subject.
That's a pity. This is not the Mr Turunz I met in 2008. The one who was listening the needs of his customers even if sometimes customers may be
annoying and time consuming. Please stop taking them from up as if they didn't even deserve respect. What is this ?
They are not all beginner and even, you will be surprised, some have good notions in luthery. And even if they don't...is this a reason to legitimate
not to treat them well ? And please assume the problems that may, sometimes, appear on an oud or two...Is this so much a big deal with a staff like
yours ?
But all in all, there are some good points in my experience with Mr Faruk. The first oud was my first beautiful sounding oud, and without an
instrument like this maybe i would have not perseverate in oud learning.
Coming to the last experience, it was a main point in my decison to go forward in oud building ..So not a so bad experience all in all 
To conclude I really think Mr Faruk and his staff are more than talented oud makers, but it's so much a pity than all those sollicitation and work
alterate his communication with customers...Come on just take it as part of the job ..Or list it as an extra option ) DOn't take this joke as an attack to your prices, you are free of your price and the
quality deserve price ...But they are some things to change I think
Best to all
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Greg
Administrator
Posts: 926
Registered: 7-22-2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Serene
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Off Topic
I hesitate to add to the already labored subject of the ethics and privacy considerations in publishing what is essentially a private communication
between two people. But as the person who made a value judgment that has come under intense scrutiny and considerable criticism, I feel compelled to
reply.
Much has been written on the privacy and property right protections provided in law to an individual in the sending of a personal email.
I have looked long and hard at such material, but can find no evidence to support the rather remarkable assertion that, “Businesses are inherently public entities, and as such, their interactions with members of the public are also public, subject only to the
privacy interests of the customer, not the business. These are not "private emails" from the standpoint of Turunz or his employees, they are only
private from the standpoint of the customer.”
As far as I can establish, the law does not support such an assertion. It is clearly a strongly held belief of Brian's. Whilst I hold Brian in the
highest of regard as a fine musician, an honest business operator and an intelligent and principled person, it is my belief that his assertion is
absolutely wrong.
The Law School of the University of Kansas has published one of the better papers on the subject of the privacy and property rights attaching to
email.
It can be found at: https://law.ku.edu/sites/law.drupal.ku.edu/files/docs/law_review/v55...
The 74 page document provides much legal opinion on the subject – here is an example:
(Section 516, page 16)
a. Common-Law Prohibition of Email Forwarding Under the recognized common-law definition of publication, an email sender may preclude the recipient
from distributing copies of the email to third parties. A frequent occurrence of such distribution arises in the practice of email forwarding. Email
forwarding is common because it is so effortless: a click of the mouse allows complete duplication and distribution of the sender’s expression. 99
Nevertheless, the fact that forwarding may be performed with ease does not alter the fact that the forwarding deprives the sender of privacy. 100 The
common law would forbid that act, for the expression in an email is as private as the expression in a letter. The ease of copying the expression
should not affect the analysis to determine whether the act in question—forwarding an email—invades the sender’s privacy interest. Common-law
copyright principles condemn email forwarding as a violation of the sender’s
property rights in the electronic expression.101
Every member of Mike’s Oud Forums has agreed to the following terms:
2 - You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use Mike’s Oud Forums to post any material which is knowingly false and/or
defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, or invasive of a person's
privacy. (my emphasis)
4 - You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you. [snip] (my emphasis)
You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to hold Mike’s Oud Forums harmless with respect to any claim based
upon transmission of your message(s).
Ethics is a subjective thing. What one person considers ethical can be considered by another as highly unethical. I personally would never knowingly
distribute copies of another person’s private email to a broad audience. I believe this would be the position of most people and I doubt they would
differentiate between whether or not the email came from a private individual or a business person.
My apologies for the length of this post and I assure members that this will be my one and only contribution to this debate. I made a value call.
Nothing I have read on this subject has led me to believe that I made the wrong call. Mike, the person legally and ethically responsible for what is
published, has agreed that the posting of private emails to the forums is not acceptable.
Thanks for your time.
Greg
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Dreamz
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 12-17-2009
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil | Hello all
make a long while i hesitated to write my experiences with Mr Faruk. The point he is able to make really great sounding instruments and my experiences
with him also have very positive issues in my oud trajectory.
But reading how he treated our fellow member and how i have been last time i dealt with him i think it deserves a post.
To be fair I will write the 3 experiences I had with Mr Faruk.
First one was just perfect as a customer, and believe me I was really an annoying customer. It was in 2008, Mr Faruk was real gentlemen, a bit rough
if I wrote to much emails but at last he followed my asking. It was my first upgrade instrument so I was uncertain on my choice, he understand that
with patience and I got a perfect instrument.
Business was here of course, our visit to the workshop was on the day he was just finishing to demonstrate me a custom double...What more natural, it
would be stupid to reproach...At least to this point of the experience.
2nd experience was more strange. A turkish tuned oud i ordered in 2009, i received with delayed by dhl after many message, really instance, to sold me
a turkish braced with varnished. I always wondered if it was an instrument he kept on the bench, maybe a customer didn't want. Anyway, not a big deal.
Once the package opened, it was a long fretboard oud..i asked for a shortfret board. And a buzzing which occure on the 3rd strings NOT from the
fingerboard but I never understood from where it came exactly. It comes and go until nowadays. Not to loud and not so disturbing. I wrote him about
this 2 point...just got a despising answer explaining me i din't know how a turkish oud should sound...i followed also lesson with a turkish teacher
!!
3rd one was more recently around 2012 and turned terrible, really very disappointing. I took directly at his workshop a reduced price instrument i
tried while passing there and which i liked really very much.
Once back in France...Bump ! The soundboard just bumped resulting in a total unplayable instrument higher than the first position. This came from a
very, too much flexible soundboard. 1.3 mm thickness with the usual very thin Turunz bracing. THe oud just cannot stand any degree of humidity higher
than the stable 50% of Istanbul. I made a video to show Mr Faruk, received kind apologize and he promised he would changed it. In the video I was
giving measurement to explain that it was really the soundboard bumping and not a matter of fingerboard thickness. We agreed i try with a local
luthier to sand down the fingerboard. It doesn't wotk of course but Mr Faruk was still convinced it was a problem that would be solved by sanding the
fingerboard. Just as if he cannot trust another professional of luthery.
We agreed by email on an exchange, I made the trip advising him of my travelling. Once there..No reduced priced oud ready for an exchange. And
wait...What you mean by an exchange ? The oud is dirt and blabla bla...this oud doesn't have any problem (humidity in my area at this period
75%..Istanbul 50%...this sensible oud make Mr Faruk think i was lying ..Check back the video in his office..He didn't even looked at it 30 seconds).
Finally no exchange no refund no repair. Just nothing. I felt i have been duped . He just changed his mind. There come the point of the business
thing. I agree with the one who write before ther is a prepaiement Turunz and a postpaiement Turunz. This was not a matter of finishing and I could
just hang the oud on the wall while returning to France.
Fortunately a friend introduced me to another luthier in Istanbul who accurately assume the job by opening the soundboard and take off some wood to
force concavity to the soundboard. This was needed added to leveled the fingerboard at the level of the soundboard to solve the problem. This luthier
was also absolutely not surprised by this problem he met several time in his experience. I will not give his name because it's not a matter of saying
this one is better than this one or blabla anything we don't mind in this subject.
That's a pity. This is not the Mr Turunz I met in 2008. The one who was listening the needs of his customers even if sometimes customers may be
annoying and time consuming. Please stop taking them from up as if they didn't even deserve respect. What is this ?
They are not all beginner and even, you will be surprised, some have good notions in luthery. And even if they don't...is this a reason to legitimate
not to treat them well ? And please assume the problems that may, sometimes, appear on an oud or two...Is this so much a big deal with a staff like
yours ?
But all in all, there are some good points in my experience with Mr Faruk. The first oud was my first beautiful sounding oud, and without an
instrument like this maybe i would have not perseverate in oud learning.
Coming to the last experience, it was a main point in my decison to go forward in oud building ..So not a so bad experience all in all
To conclude I really think Mr Faruk and his staff are more than talented oud makers, but it's so much a pity than all those sollicitation and work
alterate his communication with customers...Come on just take it as part of the job ..Or list it as an extra option ) DOn't take this joke as an attack to your prices, you are free of your price and the
quality deserve price ...But they are some things to change I think
Best to all
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Hello sir and thank you so much for sharing your experience with us here .. I admit that Usta Faruk Turunz is one of the greatest oud makers in the
world and for this reason I have made three orders from him , but this doesn't give him or his emplyess the right to do what he did .. this is
business and each customer must be completely satisfied with his oud .. if he is not , then there is a problem that should be resolved professionally
in a way that fits FARUK TURUNZ reputation which he spent so many years building it ..
Regards
Dreamz
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Dreamz
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 12-17-2009
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Greg | Off Topic
I hesitate to add to the already labored subject of the ethics and privacy considerations in publishing what is essentially a private communication
between two people. But as the person who made a value judgment that has come under intense scrutiny and considerable criticism, I feel compelled to
reply.
Much has been written on the privacy and property right protections provided in law to an individual in the sending of a personal email.
I have looked long and hard at such material, but can find no evidence to support the rather remarkable assertion that, “Businesses are inherently public entities, and as such, their interactions with members of the public are also public, subject only to the
privacy interests of the customer, not the business. These are not "private emails" from the standpoint of Turunz or his employees, they are only
private from the standpoint of the customer.”
As far as I can establish, the law does not support such an assertion. It is clearly a strongly held belief of Brian's. Whilst I hold Brian in the
highest of regard as a fine musician, an honest business operator and an intelligent and principled person, it is my belief that his assertion is
absolutely wrong.
The Law School of the University of Kansas has published one of the better papers on the subject of the privacy and property rights attaching to
email.
It can be found at: https://law.ku.edu/sites/law.drupal.ku.edu/files/docs/law_review/v55...
The 74 page document provides much legal opinion on the subject – here is an example:
(Section 516, page 16)
a. Common-Law Prohibition of Email Forwarding Under the recognized common-law definition of publication, an email sender may preclude the recipient
from distributing copies of the email to third parties. A frequent occurrence of such distribution arises in the practice of email forwarding. Email
forwarding is common because it is so effortless: a click of the mouse allows complete duplication and distribution of the sender’s expression. 99
Nevertheless, the fact that forwarding may be performed with ease does not alter the fact that the forwarding deprives the sender of privacy. 100 The
common law would forbid that act, for the expression in an email is as private as the expression in a letter. The ease of copying the expression
should not affect the analysis to determine whether the act in question—forwarding an email—invades the sender’s privacy interest. Common-law
copyright principles condemn email forwarding as a violation of the sender’s
property rights in the electronic expression.101
Every member of Mike’s Oud Forums has agreed to the following terms:
2 - You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use Mike’s Oud Forums to post any material which is knowingly false and/or
defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, or invasive of a person's
privacy. (my emphasis)
4 - You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you. [snip] (my emphasis)
You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to hold Mike’s Oud Forums harmless with respect to any claim based
upon transmission of your message(s).
Ethics is a subjective thing. What one person considers ethical can be considered by another as highly unethical. I personally would never knowingly
distribute copies of another person’s private email to a broad audience. I believe this would be the position of most people and I doubt they would
differentiate between whether or not the email came from a private individual or a business person.
My apologies for the length of this post and I assure members that this will be my one and only contribution to this debate. I made a value call.
Nothing I have read on this subject has led me to believe that I made the wrong call. Mike, the person legally and ethically responsible for what is
published, has agreed that the posting of private emails to the forums is not acceptable.
Thanks for your time.
Greg |
Hello Grig,
actually I shall thank you for enlightening my minds of things that I was not aware of .. and sorry if my behavior or action has insulted this forum
in way or another and again I apologize .
Regards
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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Greg, let me assure you that my commentary was not intended as a personal criticism of you, nor of your choice from a legal standpoint. I understand
that it is in everyone's interest to make choices that are legally "safe" and protect Mike and others from the risk of legal action.
Particularly if, in your estimation, the messages out of context could be construed as misleading. I trust your judgment here. I apologize if the
tone of my response implied disrespect—while I disagree in principle, I absolutely respect you and the job that you do as moderator.
I don't wish to continue this debate, which is now a moot point. We've established that we all agree that you and Mike are perfectly reasonable in
your stance with regard the the legal implications for the Mike and the forum, despite a disagreement regarding the underlying ethics.
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Dreamz
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 12-17-2009
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lute | | Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | | We've established that we all agree that you and Mike are perfectly reasonable in your stance with regard the the legal implications for the Mike and
the forum, despite a disagreement regarding the underlying ethics. |
Fair enough.
I hope that Dreamz's concerns would be solved soon by Faruk, and that he would join Faruk's satisfied customers list, when this matter is solved once
and for all!
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Hopefully sir
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Ferahfeza
Oud Lover
Posts: 10
Registered: 9-9-2015
Member Is Offline
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I sent a message to Faruk on Facebook a couple of days ago, telling him that there is a thread on Mike's forum, which concerns him directly, and
suggesting him to reply to this thread. He saw it, but didn't reply to me!
So, at least we can be sure that he knows about this thread. Let's see what happens.
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
Member Is Offline
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As far as I know, the top he has used is Lebanon cedar which is very hard to find a single color one. if you have ordered western red cedar or
Canadian red cedar you have the right to complain.
P. S. the Ghadban oud also has Lebanon cedar top.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
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About a week ago I decided to get involved in the dispute that Dreamz (D) had with Faruk (FT) that you are now all aware of. I emailed both FT and D
to see if they would like me to mediate some sort of resolution, and they were both open to it. I wanted to gather all the facts, consider both
parties best interests, and try to help them come to a fair agreement that both were comfortable with. I did this because I consider FT to be a
friend, and I also felt like D had a legitimate case to be upset about the oud he received and how he may have been treated. I did not like seeing FT
getting crucified on my forums. I also sensed that although D was upset about the oud he received, he was not upset about the quality of the
craftsmanship or the sound of the instrument, but rather how he felt like he was mistreated from a customer service point of view. He seemed like a
reasonable fellow, and that is why I wanted to try and help him resolve this with FT. So a week of emails going back and forth between both parties
has resulted in both sides agreeing to a resolution that they both are comfortable with.
I feel it necessary to recount the facts though, because there was definitely more to this story than we had read in the posts above. I’m not saying
that D was misleading, he was actually quite honest, and FT actually verified some of his claims as well to me. He also refuted some others, or
clarified I should say. FT also did not deny that he may have mishandled the situation with D, but he was also making some valid points for what led
him to lose his patience with him. Even D acknowledged he contacted him a lot during the build, but he was just very excited about the oud. This is
why I consider detailing what led to D’s initial post as being important. That being said, it is common sense to hear both sides of a story before
coming to any conclusions. I am posting this after both FT and D have read and approved this message.
There have been more than 2,300 views of this thread and yet the great majority of members have not felt the need to "chime in" with unhelpful and
inflammatory comment. Most have been sensitive and sensible enough to realize they have no direct involvement and should let those that do sort this
matter out without adding additional pressure. I would also assume most sensible members have avoided making judgments, as they are fully aware there
are always two sides to every story. A couple of people have related similar personal stories, and these posts are relevant to the thread and I
personally welcome them. I request people who have no direct involvement desist from employing the well-worn practice of keeping an unpleasant thread
alive by re-posting and using other "devices" to achieve the same result.
Finally, let me be clear. As mentioned above, others have made claims that they had poor experiences as well; I am only dealing with the transaction
between FT and D. I know nothing about the other cases.
A Summary of what happened this last week.
As far as I could tell, D had the following complaints, and he verified this to me.
1 - He wanted Dark East Indian Rosewood, which he ordered for an upgraded fee.
2 - The White Streaks on the bowl.
3 - The non-uniform color of the cedar soundboard.
4 - The way he was treated and being blocked off by Faruk and his assistant, and this possibly being the most important point for D.
After recounting to FT these complaints, this is what his response was.
Complaint 1 - The oud was in fact East Indian rosewood (dalbergia latifolia). I mentioned this to D, and he did not dispute it, so it
would seem FT did not change the bowl wood from that which was ordered.
Complaint 2 - This wood, like several other species, can produce minute white lines in the grain and these become more noticeable
after the finish is applied. This was actually noted above by Alfaraby. Although it may be unsightly, it was out of FT’s control. That being said, I
told FT that it was a legitimate complaint, and he did not deny it.
Complaint 3 – Apparently FT sent D a pretty good quality video of the oud before shipping it to him. He said there was no attempt
made to disguise the look of the soundboard in the video. When I pointed this out to D, he verified that he did receive the video, but he missed or
just did not notice the non-uniform color. A copy of the video is attached. Click to watch.
Complaint 4 – FT agreed he lost his patience with D, but he told me that D was contacting him excessively, and much more often than
would be considered normal. He was calling him after FT told him he was away on vacation, and sometimes while having dinner with his wife. I explained
to FT that he was possibly just very excited about the custom oud he ordered, and he agreed with me that he could have handled the situation with more
patience.
I then asked D for some more information. I wanted to know the following:
1 – How much he paid for the oud? ($4,000 + shipping and hardcase)
2 – How much he sold the oud for? ($2,500…he told me he tried to recover the full amount but got no interest so he settled for that amount.)
3 - How long did he have the oud before contacting FT telling him that he was unhappy? (As soon as he received the oud. FT also verified this to me as
well.)
After some back and forth emails with D, he initially was asking for an instrument worth about $2,000 to make up for his losses. I in turn told him
that I would approach FT with that proposal, but that in all honesty, not to expect it to happen because it was somewhat unreasonable. I also told him
that by selling the oud, he had limited the possibilities for a solution involving exchanging the oud or changing the soundboard, at the very least. D
understood my point, and then told me that he would be open to a counter offer, such as a discount on another oud.
At this point I was optimistic that we could come up with a resolution. I felt both sides were being honest and also being somewhat reasonable. D was
upset about the oud he received, and although he proposed something I felt was not going to be agreed to, he was open to a counter proposal for a
resolution. FT was initially very open to the idea of working things out and making D happy, but slowly became a little more hesitant to offer a
counter, as he was still a little upset about how he continued to be attacked on the forums, even up until yesterday. By the way, when I first emailed
D about helping him resolve this dispute, I asked him to stop posting one-line responses on the thread just to keep the thread going. I told him he
had made his point. The problem now was people totally unrelated to his issue were chiming in, and this would hurt his chances for a resolution. He
immediately stopped posting. He told me he was not unhappy with the quality of Faruk’s work. He actually praised it highly, but rather was mainly
angry at how he was treated. Meanwhile, people started jumping in and offering their 2 cents worth, and asking for updates and so on. D still remained
quiet, and this most definitely helped his cause with FT. I was able to tell FT that D had stopped posting, and to disregard the other members as they
had nothing to do with D’s situation. I did encourage him to agree to a resolution quickly so he could put this behind him, as some people were not
going to let this go, even if it didn’t concern them. He agreed.
Fast forward to today. I awoke to an email from FT stating his counter offer was to have D send back the oud so he could exchange it. Keep in mind
there is a time difference between where I am located and where D and FT are located. They are in the same time zone. So I awoke to another email from
D telling me that FT had contacted him with his counter directly, apparently after he emailed me. D also told me that he told FT that he would not be
able to return the oud because the guy who had bought it had now also sold it. He also was a little unhappy with the tone of FTs messages. I thought I
had lost control and there was going to be no resolution, but I told D to let me see what I could do. I emailed FT to ask him if he still wanted me to
mediate. I also asked him if I could call him. By the time I was on the phone with him, I was happily surprised that he reported to me that he and D
had worked out a compromise. D emailed me shortly thereafter to confirm. In the end, they were able to communicate together and come to an agreement
that both are quite comfortable with. FT realized he had mishandled the customer service portion of the transaction, D was honest and reasonable, and
they were able to work it out. They both want to move on and put this behind them.
I will not go into the detail of the agreement they have reached other than to say that D is ordering another new oud from FT and FT is giving him a
generous discount to at least cover a significant part of the losses D experienced in on-selling the first oud.
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Dreamz
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 12-17-2009
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Mike | About a week ago I decided to get involved in the dispute that Dreamz (D) had with Faruk (FT) that you are now all aware of. I emailed both FT and D
to see if they would like me to mediate some sort of resolution, and they were both open to it. I wanted to gather all the facts, consider both
parties best interests, and try to help them come to a fair agreement that both were comfortable with. I did this because I consider FT to be a
friend, and I also felt like D had a legitimate case to be upset about the oud he received and how he may have been treated. I did not like seeing FT
getting crucified on my forums. I also sensed that although D was upset about the oud he received, he was not upset about the quality of the
craftsmanship or the sound of the instrument, but rather how he felt like he was mistreated from a customer service point of view. He seemed like a
reasonable fellow, and that is why I wanted to try and help him resolve this with FT. So a week of emails going back and forth between both parties
has resulted in both sides agreeing to a resolution that they both are comfortable with.
I feel it necessary to recount the facts though, because there was definitely more to this story than we had read in the posts above. I’m not saying
that D was misleading, he was actually quite honest, and FT actually verified some of his claims as well to me. He also refuted some others, or
clarified I should say. FT also did not deny that he may have mishandled the situation with D, but he was also making some valid points for what led
him to lose his patience with him. Even D acknowledged he contacted him a lot during the build, but he was just very excited about the oud. This is
why I consider detailing what led to D’s initial post as being important. That being said, it is common sense to hear both sides of a story before
coming to any conclusions. I am posting this after both FT and D have read and approved this message.
There have been more than 2,300 views of this thread and yet the great majority of members have not felt the need to "chime in" with unhelpful and
inflammatory comment. Most have been sensitive and sensible enough to realize they have no direct involvement and should let those that do sort this
matter out without adding additional pressure. I would also assume most sensible members have avoided making judgments, as they are fully aware there
are always two sides to every story. A couple of people have related similar personal stories, and these posts are relevant to the thread and I
personally welcome them. I request people who have no direct involvement desist from employing the well-worn practice of keeping an unpleasant thread
alive by re-posting and using other "devices" to achieve the same result.
Finally, let me be clear. As mentioned above, others have made claims that they had poor experiences as well; I am only dealing with the transaction
between FT and D. I know nothing about the other cases.
A Summary of what happened this last week.
As far as I could tell, D had the following complaints, and he verified this to me.
1 - He wanted Dark East Indian Rosewood, which he ordered for an upgraded fee.
2 - The White Streaks on the bowl.
3 - The non-uniform color of the cedar soundboard.
4 - The way he was treated and being blocked off by Faruk and his assistant, and this possibly being the most important point for D.
After recounting to FT these complaints, this is what his response was.
Complaint 1 - The oud was in fact East Indian rosewood (dalbergia latifolia). I mentioned this to D, and he did not dispute it, so it
would seem FT did not change the bowl wood from that which was ordered.
Complaint 2 - This wood, like several other species, can produce minute white lines in the grain and these become more noticeable
after the finish is applied. This was actually noted above by Alfaraby. Although it may be unsightly, it was out of FT’s control. That being said, I
told FT that it was a legitimate complaint, and he did not deny it.
Complaint 3 – Apparently FT sent D a pretty good quality video of the oud before shipping it to him. He said there was no attempt
made to disguise the look of the soundboard in the video. When I pointed this out to D, he verified that he did receive the video, but he missed or
just did not notice the non-uniform color. A copy of the video is attached. Click to watch.
Complaint 4 – FT agreed he lost his patience with D, but he told me that D was contacting him excessively, and much more often than
would be considered normal. He was calling him after FT told him he was away on vacation, and sometimes while having dinner with his wife. I explained
to FT that he was possibly just very excited about the custom oud he ordered, and he agreed with me that he could have handled the situation with more
patience.
I then asked D for some more information. I wanted to know the following:
1 – How much he paid for the oud? ($4,000 + shipping and hardcase)
2 – How much he sold the oud for? ($2,500…he told me he tried to recover the full amount but got no interest so he settled for that amount.)
3 - How long did he have the oud before contacting FT telling him that he was unhappy? (As soon as he received the oud. FT also verified this to me as
well.)
After some back and forth emails with D, he initially was asking for an instrument worth about $2,000 to make up for his losses. I in turn told him
that I would approach FT with that proposal, but that in all honesty, not to expect it to happen because it was somewhat unreasonable. I also told him
that by selling the oud, he had limited the possibilities for a solution involving exchanging the oud or changing the soundboard, at the very least. D
understood my point, and then told me that he would be open to a counter offer, such as a discount on another oud.
At this point I was optimistic that we could come up with a resolution. I felt both sides were being honest and also being somewhat reasonable. D was
upset about the oud he received, and although he proposed something I felt was not going to be agreed to, he was open to a counter proposal for a
resolution. FT was initially very open to the idea of working things out and making D happy, but slowly became a little more hesitant to offer a
counter, as he was still a little upset about how he continued to be attacked on the forums, even up until yesterday. By the way, when I first emailed
D about helping him resolve this dispute, I asked him to stop posting one-line responses on the thread just to keep the thread going. I told him he
had made his point. The problem now was people totally unrelated to his issue were chiming in, and this would hurt his chances for a resolution. He
immediately stopped posting. He told me he was not unhappy with the quality of Faruk’s work. He actually praised it highly, but rather was mainly
angry at how he was treated. Meanwhile, people started jumping in and offering their 2 cents worth, and asking for updates and so on. D still remained
quiet, and this most definitely helped his cause with FT. I was able to tell FT that D had stopped posting, and to disregard the other members as they
had nothing to do with D’s situation. I did encourage him to agree to a resolution quickly so he could put this behind him, as some people were not
going to let this go, even if it didn’t concern them. He agreed.
Fast forward to today. I awoke to an email from FT stating his counter offer was to have D send back the oud so he could exchange it. Keep in mind
there is a time difference between where I am located and where D and FT are located. They are in the same time zone. So I awoke to another email from
D telling me that FT had contacted him with his counter directly, apparently after he emailed me. D also told me that he told FT that he would not be
able to return the oud because the guy who had bought it had now also sold it. He also was a little unhappy with the tone of FTs messages. I thought I
had lost control and there was going to be no resolution, but I told D to let me see what I could do. I emailed FT to ask him if he still wanted me to
mediate. I also asked him if I could call him. By the time I was on the phone with him, I was happily surprised that he reported to me that he and D
had worked out a compromise. D emailed me shortly thereafter to confirm. In the end, they were able to communicate together and come to an agreement
that both are quite comfortable with. FT realized he had mishandled the customer service portion of the transaction, D was honest and reasonable, and
they were able to work it out. They both want to move on and put this behind them.
I will not go into the detail of the agreement they have reached other than to say that D is ordering another new oud from FT and FT is giving him a
generous discount to at least cover a significant part of the losses D experienced in on-selling the first oud. |
Hello everybody ..
First I'd like to thank Mike who have helped me resolve this nice and easy and without his effort I would not be able to reach to an agreement or a
compromise between me and Usta Faruk.
As I have mentioned in the beginning, my intention was not to ruin a reputation or do harm to a business. But rather , was a complaint for what
hapenned and I never had doubt in the quality of Turkish ouds especially Usta Faruk ouds which I consider them to be "pieces of Art " .
Usta Faruk and I decided to throw the past behind our back and he work this issue out with me in a gentle and generous way .
What more could a customer ask for?
Thank you Usta Faruk,
You showed a real generosity and your apology is accepted .
Mike,
I really can't thank you enough.
Good luck my dears and thank you all
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1061
Registered: 1-10-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Nice to read this ending
Which you to enjoy your future new Turunz oud DreamZ, there are truely great instruments
Best to all
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Mike
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Thread Split
10-15-2015 at 06:36 AM |
alloushé
Oud Junkie
Posts: 100
Registered: 4-28-2010
Member Is Offline
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On my opinion, Dreamz was wronged. When one pays someone to do a specific job, he must do it point barre. Any modification should be beforehand
accepted by the buyer. When a buyer has a negative experience with a seller, he must inform people around him so they can pay attention, I would have
done the same... Thank you Dreamz for relating your experience. and may your future experiences be better. 
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alloushé
Oud Junkie
Posts: 100
Registered: 4-28-2010
Member Is Offline
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I agree 100% with dreamsz, you were unjustly treated, when one pay somebody to do a job he should do it precisely as agreed point barre.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
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