Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
Registered: 6-4-2015
Location: Germany / Leipzig
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Soundboard removal
Hey friends,
I have made a decision which includes the removal of the soundboard of my latest oud/lute built.
In order to enhance the sound of the oud and gather some skills in restoration I plan to remove the fingerboard, soundboard and braces. Remove
material from the soundboard and give it a new lighter bracing and share it here in the forum. I know that this will be quite difficult but I really
look forward to this challenge !
I would be very thankful if anyone who completed this procedure before, could give me some tips before I start to rip the oud appart. :P
Body is made of pear, walnut. Fingerboard is rosewood. Top is sitka spruce. Everything is glued with titebond 1 (red lable)
Images of the oud are here
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=16149
Thanks in advance !!!! 
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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SamirCanada
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good luck, are you planning to try and save the top? I think this may be too hard unless you can find a way to soften the titebond and work a pallet
knife in there. I would try with a heat gun.
I would just make a new top. I remove tops by using my cutting gauge for the binding, I just set the cutter way deep and go at it. chisel out the
edges carefully.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
Registered: 6-4-2015
Location: Germany / Leipzig
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Mood: contented
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Jerp thats exactly what I'm up to. I will try it with heat and a box cutter.
When I fail to save the board I will make a new one but the basic idea was to keep the board.
A problematic thing will be the fingerboard I guess. I will try to remove it just from the sound board and not from the neck.
Thanks for ur fast response Samir ! 
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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Before removing the soundboard I suggest you trim some of the braces first. Loosen the rose (if there is one), drop it inside and use a small finger
plane, knife or chisel to cut down the brace forward of the bridge. How much to remove depends on the thickness of the brace and the height, just make
a judgement and go for it. Also cut down the next brace forward, just below the small roses (again if you have them) to as low as 1/4 inch(6mm) high
in the center section. Don't worry about the ends at the rib joint, it doesn't have much affect. This is regularly done on Turkish ouds as part of the
Manol brace design.
Try to sand down the face while mounted on the oud and you will only cause it to be thinner over the braces and thicker in between as the face flexes.
If the face is not one all thickness, (gradual thinner at the edges ok, but consistent in the center section) it can cause the face to vibrate in
separate patches rather than as one plate. If you remove the face you can set the face on a series of blocks between each brace, but it is still a lot
of extra work to achieve the same effect as trimming down the braces. The overall stiffness is a combination of the soundboard thickness plus the
brace location, thickness and height, so reducing braces is easier and maintains the thickness of the face so it will vibrate as one plate.
If the fingerboard extends over the face, you should remove it first if you are determined to remove the face. Another problem is using titebond glue.
The glue will have to be scraped or sanded off every glue joint, as you cannot re-glue over old glue. This may make the brace/rib joints not to fit
anyway. Next time use hide glue and you can save the glue joints. It's way better glue anyway
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SamirCanada
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Make the fingerboard in 2 pieces. take a nice straight saw and saw the fingerboard at the neck, not the whole neck joint, just the fingerboard depth.
but really save yourself the headache, just get a new soundboard. start from scratch.
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samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
Registered: 6-4-2015
Location: Germany / Leipzig
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Wow, thanks alot guys !!
I got ur points !
To try to make the soundboard less stiff I can shave the braces or make a new one.
Ok let's not jump the gun on this 
Dr Oud, thank u for sharing ur knowledge with me. As I stated I was planning to skill the removal of soundboards including the repair/shaving of the
braces and reattach it to the body.
Now Samir (thank u too) told me that I maybe should use a new soundboard, which makes sense.
I really thought it is common practice for luthiers to remove/repair/reattach soundboards.
So please correct me if I'm wrong.
It makes totally sense what you both stated and the problems u mentioned. I just want to know if my request is a necessary luthier skill.
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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If you plan to build an oud so that the sound board may be removed intact for repairs then you must use traditional hot hide glue for gluing sound
board to bowl. Furthermore if the sound board has tile decoration around the edge then these should be half depth bindings not full depth as often
seems to be the case these days. Also if guitar like kerfing has been installed this will increase difficulty of removal (due to the increased area of
the glue joint which traditionally should not be more than about 2 mm wide)
Hot hide glue is easily reversible, modern synthetic glues are not. Hot hide glue has proven itself for instrument work over the centuries for
strength and durability, modern synthetic glues have not. When gluing sound board to bowl I do not use hide glue full strength but diluted. This not
only delays the gel time during assembly but allows a sound board to be more easily removed in the future intact without damage.
When gluing the sound board with hide glue the joint surfaces are first all glued - the bar ends being last - and the sound board as quickly as
possible set in place on the bowl and clamped with strips of tape. As the glue will already have started to gel in places the glue in the joint
surfaces must be re activated with moisture and heat (a heated pallet knife dipped in water pushed into the joint and the joint pressed in place using
a hot iron). This is done bit by bit around the sound board taping the joint tightly in place as work proceeds.
Removal of a sound board is achieved by first moistening the sound board edges with a damp cloth then inserting a thin hot pallet knife into the joint
to separate it - working carefully around the sound board edge bit by bit. The brace ends are unglued by applying moisture and hot iron (held on the
outside of the rib) while prying up on the brace with a narrow knife blade. At the neck block heat is applied to the sound board surface with a hot
iron while working a hot spatula dipped in water into the joint.
Removal of a sound board without damage for repair is an essential skill that a luthier may have to resort to from time to time - particularly if
working with valuable old (or new) instruments - where destruction of a sound board in order to remove it would not be acceptable.
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
Registered: 6-4-2015
Location: Germany / Leipzig
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Alright ! Thanks alot Mr Downing I appreciate ur help everytime !
On my first oud I used some hide glue, but the cold one from titebond , for
the fingerboard part that is glued to the sound board.
Half depth binding is my preferred binding method.
Know that makes more and more sense, I now understand why hot hide glue is the better glue.
Thanks for clearing up about the luthier skill, so I definitely have to train this sometime.
I followed Dr Oud's advice to try shaving the braces and I completed the task successfully ! My nick knife went through the spruce like through butter
The sound quality increased quite a bit. I'm very satisfied with the result.
Unfortunately I have decided to leave the oud like it is, what makes this thread kind of uncompleted.
I will start the next oud/lute in a few weeks and will try hot hide glue this time.
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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Hibari-San
Oud Maniac
Posts: 78
Registered: 6-4-2015
Location: Germany / Leipzig
Member Is Offline
Mood: contented
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Heyyyy guys !
I was quite busy in building guitars and stuff where I increased my skills alot !
This oud/lute:
The latest changes after shaving the braces was to cut 2 additional small soundholes.
I wish I could say that changed the sound but.... no difference.
When I was buying wood I looked at this oud again and purchased one more spruce top to finally give it a try.
So I started to rip off the fingerboard and top using a kitchen knife and heat from an old iron.
All was glued with (red) titebond original wood glue which seems to be reversible if heated up.
Fortunately it went so friggin well that all parts came loose without taking any damage.
I really was surprised when I found two braces sticking to the body not to the top.
Especially the half binding ! Almost no scratch on it.
I sanded down the board to about 1.8mm (sitka spruce) and gave it an extra light bracing.
Unfortunately when sanding the front a bit the pattern was damaged and I removed it completely but made a same looking new one
Here's the result !! An oud where you cannot see that the board was taken off in the past.
It even looks the same like before but the sound made an enormous jump !
You all now what I mean with: This oud is singing !!!
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Bvmdglsl.jpg?1[/img]
I am planning to build in rosettes for the small holes.
The best is I saved a spruce board for the next oud
Best regards
Hibari
--------------------------------------------------------
"If you spend to much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done. Make at least one definite
move daily toward your goal."
- Bruce Lee -
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alejofar
Oud Addict
Posts: 38
Registered: 9-23-2011
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Great job man! 
I have some junker ouds sitting in my closet and I've been wanting to take the tops off of them and tinker around myself.
So, if you're using a regular iron from home do you need to place a towel or some kind of buffer between the iron and the wood? I would assume the
direct iron would burn it. Also, I hear a warm knife with water in the joints will do the job. My concern with water is that it will get too wet and
warp the wood.
Any advice on how to approach this?
Thanks!
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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Mood: better than before
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Remove the edging first, then loosen the ends of the braces, the tail block, and finally the neck block. Use a thin pallette knife to gently pry the
joint apart as you heat it. The iron must be controlled so the heat is not too high to scorch the wood. You can get a small iron at craft stores that
will heat only a small spot at a time. The small iron is not able to get hot enough to scorch wood. Avoid using water as spruce is too soft and will
delaminate easily. A warm knife only affect a small spot and you need to soften ahead of the palette knife to release the joint. A palette knife is
thinner than a kitchen knife and will cause less damage to the glue joint.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Hello Richard.
I don't understand when you say ' Avoid using water as spruce is too soft and will delaminate easily' as I cannot visualise how spruce or any other
traditional soundboard material can delaminate (as a plywood might) with the application of heat and moisture required to remove a sound board.
Although violin makers (I am told) can remove the plates of a violin without need to soften the glue with moisture (dried hide glue being brittle just
inserting the thin blade of a knife into the joint is sufficient to separate it without damage) I am not aware that this can be safely done in the
case of thin braced soundboards found on ouds or lutes.
As far as I know there are no historical texts concerning oud construction or repair but there is one well known publication that describes step by
step the removal of a lute soundboard (and there is no difference between an oud or lute in this respect - what applies to the lute also applies to an
oud). The book in question is 'Musick's Monument' by Thomas Mace published in London England in 1676. It is available for free download here:
https://archive.org/details/musicksmonumento00mace
and here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Musick's_Monument_(Mace,_Thomas)
or do a Google search
The relevant part is in book 2, Chapter IV , pages 54 to 61 'Concerning the Mechanical Order of the Lute'. Mace uses moisture (applied with a rag
soaked in water) and an iron heated to red hot held close to the joint (not applied to the wood for obvious reasons!) and a thin bladed knife that is
inserted into the joint when the glue has been softened sufficiently.
The text is in archaic 17th C English but should not be too difficult to follow for those interested.
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