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Author: Subject: 3,4,5 of Segah, Chahargah, Rast Panjgah?
Chris-Stephens
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[*] posted on 1-7-2019 at 07:40 AM
3,4,5 of Segah, Chahargah, Rast Panjgah?


Anyone know why these are numbered as such?
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Jody Stecher
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[*] posted on 1-7-2019 at 09:03 AM


Don't forget Yehgah and Dugah. All are names of pitches and their corresponding finger positions on instruments.

Yours is a good question. I don't know the answer. I have read the answers of experts but am not satisfied.
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[*] posted on 1-7-2019 at 09:11 AM


I don't know the context in which you found the numbers associated with the three dastgahs mentioned, but I'm guessing that these three appeared in a list of the seven dastgahs of Persian music and were numbered 3, 4 and 5 on the list (the other four dastgahs are Shur, Mahur, Homayun and Nava).
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[*] posted on 1-7-2019 at 10:52 AM


My understanding is that Yegah was traditionally the lowest note in Persian music theory, and Dugah, Segah, Chahargah and Panjgah were the next notes (some of the more ancient instruments still in use, such as folk flutes and bagpipes, still play more or less 5 notes). This corresponds to a rast pentachord.

I don't know when Yegah was renamed Rast, but the name Yegah appears to have come to denote the lowest note and has persisted as the lowest note of the Turkish system.
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Chris-Stephens
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[*] posted on 1-7-2019 at 10:54 AM


No they weren't numbered like that, the numbers are in the name (in Farsi) Se = 3, Chahar = 4, Panj = 5, and gah گاه means like place, position, location something like that. So the names of these three dastgah (hand position) refers to some sequential placement, maybe having to do with finger position on the neck, they are not in this order in the Radif as Rast Panjgah is usually last of the 7 so that makes me think the name means something about the actual notes involved. Curious!
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Chris-Stephens
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[*] posted on 1-7-2019 at 11:02 AM


Rast used to be called Yegah in Turkish music? Interesting. And what was Dugah? Bayati? In Persian Tar playing, Rast is a downstroke with the mezrab, as opposed to an upstroke - Chap. But it does make sense that Yegah would be the lowest (first) note on the instrument.
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[*] posted on 1-7-2019 at 02:57 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  
Rast used to be called Yegah in Turkish music? Interesting. And what was Dugah? Bayati? In Persian Tar playing, Rast is a downstroke with the mezrab, as opposed to an upstroke - Chap. But it does make sense that Yegah would be the lowest (first) note on the instrument.


...and actually what does "yeg" or "yek" mean?
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al-Halabi
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[*] posted on 1-7-2019 at 03:59 PM


It's the Persian for "one." Yegah means "first position."

Rast was not called Yegah in Turkish music. Already by the 15th century the basic primary scale in Turkish/Ottoman music began with rast, followed by the notes as they are known today, with a couple of variations earlier on. Yegah was established as the note a fourth lower than rast. It deserved the name yegah as it was the first scale degree in the repertory of tones available for composition.
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[*] posted on 1-8-2019 at 04:10 AM


The meaning behind several musical terms has changed over time. Some makams behave different, like Dügah (formerly it has been kind of Uşşak, now is a combination of Saba and Zirgüleli Hicaz) and Çargah (formerly it has been like Saba, but without resolving to Dügah, so like Zirgüleli Hicaz from the note Çargah; in the 20th century it has been chosen as a kind of Major scale without any accidentals in its key signature, which some people saw to be needed in the Turkish music.
As far as I remember prior to the new Ottoman labeling of notes there hast been a section of yegal - haftgah which has been modified later; but I don't remember the source. Could have been Kudsi Ergüner was talking about this. What is left is now is the sequence Dügah, Segah, Çargah each of them corresponding the position of an important note in a makam with the same name. Pençgah doesn't quite fit in there, but I don't know, how this makam has been changed.
Persian music is full of Persian terms, which also are in use in Ottoman music, but with a complete different meaning. For many makam names you find a gushe or dastgah in Persian music with complete different intervals and melodic behaviour. Additionally most of the twelve Uyghur muqams and also in Uzbek Shashmaqom you find these names.
What I want to point out is that since the first usage and establishing of these names a lot happened.
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majnuunNavid
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[*] posted on 1-9-2019 at 04:18 AM


Dastgah also means "system" or "machine". Dast + gah: Hand+position; position of hands, or system of positioning hands (on a fingerboard).

So when you think of the term Dastgah-e Segah for example, you can derive that this means a system based on the third position (or third degree in western music). As it literally can be interpreted as "System of Third position".

When you look at the formulation of the Radif and when you musically see all the inner connections that exist in Dastgah-e Segah, it is clearly an elaborate system.

So I speculate that way back in antiquity, a system of 7 notes was discovered and delineated. Each note had a position on the fingerboard, and similar to Greek modes, you could derive different modes depending on which note you chose as the tonal centre. Then as music developed and gave rise to different tonalities, different intervals were introduced and became conventional but these new modes with different intervals had starting positions directly related to the hand positions which may have became note names as they are in Turkish and Arabic music. So you now have some modes which are named Segah, Dogah etc but have evolved differently.

(Side anecdote: I don't think it's a coincidence that there are also 7 main Dastgah in the Persian system, 6 maqams in Uighur music, 7 heavens (originating in middle eastern mystic/philosophical schools), 7 chakras, 7 valleys (Al-Ghazzali sufism. It's the devil's work if you ask me ;) ) I think these musical discoveries influenced philosophy and vice versa.

Remnants of this exist today in the relationship between Maqam Rast and Maqam Segah, and Dastgah-e Shur and Bayat-e Tork (previously known as Bayat-e Zand until the Turk Qajars came into power).

Shur:
G Aqb Bb C Dqb/D Eb F G
Bayat-e Tork:
Bb C D Eb F G Aqb Bb

Bayat-e Tork is a modulation to the tonal centre on Bb. That's why it's derived from Shur, even though it sounds completely different.

As mentioned in other comments, I think things evolved and changed, became lost, names stayed the same, but reality changed.

There is virtually no continuity in modal music when you look at the modern conventions still used, but there seems to be some inkling of some kind of elaborate system that was used in the past and spread, and evolved, or was discovered simultaneously in different cultures.




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Chris-Stephens
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[*] posted on 1-9-2019 at 08:55 AM


Thanks Navid, I suppose that's the best answer I could hope for! I'm still curious about what those positions would have been, and on what instrument but I guess we'll never know :shrug:

And yes 7 is considered to have many divine properties, 7 deadly sins, 7 colors in the rainbow, 7 seas, 7 days a week, 7 wonders of the world, 7 sages, the list is very long!
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