NodalNim
Oud Admirer
Posts: 5
Registered: 3-14-2005
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the Oud in a Western rock setting
Hello,
My name is Andrew, and I am considering purchasing an oud or cumbus within the next year or so. I currently play mandolin and guitar, but I am
interested in breaking out of the shackles of 12-tone equal temperament with a fretless instrument.
I should mention that I am not of Middle Eastern descent; I am a European-American. I do enjoy the traditional oud music that I've heard (Hamza El
Din is wonderful), and I have a great respect for Middle Eastern culture, but I wouldn't necessarily be interested in doing anything very traditional
and oud-like if I had an oud or cumbus to play with. In fact, I'd probably continue writing and performing experimental pop/rock songs in an
alternative American style, which is what I do now on the mandolin.
I am concerned that by taking this traditional instrument and using it in such an American context, I would offend people. The oud is so rooted in
Middle Eastern culture, and perhaps it would be seen as insulting for me to remove it from that context and play it however I feel like it. Of
course, that wouldn't be my intention at all, and I definitely wouldn't want misunderstandings to cause me to offend people.
I was wondering if any oud players have any insight on this. How would you feel, as an oud player, seeing me do this? Should I leave the oud alone
and seek other instruments, such as a fretless guitar?
Thanks in advance,
Andrew Heathwaite
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palestine48
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 6-9-2004
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I am not speaking for the board but I would not mind. Hey any positive exposure about us middle easterners and our culture is a good thing especially
now because of the tension of many ignorant people and politicians.
The one issue I would raise though is how would you go about doing this since western music is pretty much limited to half steps and whole steps or at
least to my knowledge I beleive it is. The purpose of fretless instrument would be to play between the halfs and wholes and I would wonder if
americans can absorb these types of sounds or would they look at you funny for playing "out of tune".
Overall though I would appreciate you doing this and maybe this will remotivate middle eastern people to go back to their traditional instruments if
they see you doing it.
Right now there is an epidemic in the middle east where pop music is pretty much the only dominant market and instead of relying on ouds violins and
qanuns. They are using synthesizers and electric guitars. That to me is insult because it is limiting the abilities of arabic music to do what it is
meant to do which is explore. If you like to play just western style songs I dont see a problem but remember you are not limited by frets, use it to
your advantage and see if you can come up with a new sound. Use the arabic philosophy and explore.
FYI marcel khalife uses a lot of piano on his new recordings and that technically limits him to playing half and whole step only maqams, In essence
playing on the western scale because the piano cant imitate the notes an oud can do produce. I wouldnt say it is bad because I love his music and his
music is always meaningful not like the arabic pop that is around nowadays but i do feel he is limiting himself.
I apologize for rambling, my basic point is I would support your experimentation but I would liek for you to see that you have no boundaries on the
oud and you can theoretically explore music past any imaginable boundry regardless if it will be acccepted by your audience or not so I hope you use
it to your advantage.
Take care and good luck,
Rami
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Khalid
Oud Lover
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Hey Nodalnim,
Using the oud in a rock fusion sounds great to me. Its good to hear about artists experimenting with instruments ins this way; in fact I'm thinking of
doing a similar thing myself. I am of middle eastern decent and it doesn't offend me at all, man.
Good luck,
Khalid
P.s. If you ever get any recordings out there, share them.
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Mood: Aksak
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Yes, there may be a bunch who are offended...
... but I'm also not one of them. I've done my share of "distortion oud" tracks, even a really hard-core industrial track or two. I'll warn you,
though, it takes a ton of time to develop an interesting "voice" for the oud in a rock or funk context. Plugging ouds into pedals often yields
less-than-optimal results. I've spent years with experimentation and still am not quite satisfied...
In Turkey, the national instrument is the baglama-saz, and in clubs featuring "traditional" music you almost NEVER find it without being plugged into
phaser, chorus, and octave doubler pedals. To hear a natural, acoustic baglama-saz in a performance setting is a very rare experience.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
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As long as at the end of the show there isnt any oud smashing against the floor!! Iam down
But to repeat what Palestine has said, arabic music has many different maqams witch you could say represent scales in western music. But they are all
to bring diferent moods to your piece. The oud has the ability to play those 1/2 tones and 1/4 tones that are in those maqam.
http://www.maqamworld.com is a excelent source of info on that so you should explore what notes you ca recreate with the oud.
Also maybe more experianced people can clarify this but. I dont think you can tune the oud the same way has a guitar: I mean Iam not shure if the
tension aplied when doing such a thing is all that great. Someone like Elie could clarify this.
Best of luck
Samir
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NodalNim
Oud Admirer
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Registered: 3-14-2005
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Thank you all for your encouragement and insight! I appreciate your taking the time to give me your thoughts on this matter. Perhaps I have been
paranoid to worry about offending people! Your enthusiasm is inspiring!
I've responded to quotes from each of you below:
palestine48 said: {{ The one issue I would raise though is how would you go about doing this since western music is pretty much limited to half steps
and whole steps or at least to my knowledge I beleive it is. The purpose of fretless instrument would be to play between the halfs and wholes and I
would wonder if americans can absorb these types of sounds or would they look at you funny for playing "out of tune".}}
Concerning the tuning, let me assure you all that I would definitely experiment with new possibilities in melody and harmony, and not limit myself to
the familiar Western whole-step half-step thing. In fact, my desire for a fretless instrument that would allow me to break out of 12-tone equal
temperament is exactly what leads me now to the oud (and/or cumbus). I'm interested in finding new possibilities in tuning! People look at me funny
anyway for the music I play. I like to be challenging. I won't shy away from appearing "out of tune" to people with closed ears.
palestine48 also said: {{Overall though I would appreciate you doing this and maybe this will remotivate middle eastern people to go back to their
traditional instruments if they see you doing it.}}
I would really be happy about that. I DJ a radio show at a very small college radio station in Potsdam, NY, USA (near Canada) featuring "World Music"
that we receive from certain record labels. I emphasize the more traditional stuff (classical and folk) and de-emphasize the Westernized stuff, but I
can see it dominating.
I've heard a lot about over-Westernization, and it makes me sad to think that the rigidity of the West is doing damage to ancient traditions. I guess
that's part of why I am concerned about offending people with what I want to do. I know that Americanized pop music is dominating in many parts of
the world, and its frightening what we may be losing.
Khalid said: {{P.s. If you ever get any recordings out there, share them.}}
I sure will, and thanks for the invitation! If you're interested, I do have some songs for mandolin and voice available to download at http://www.nimland.cjb.net. You'll get some idea of what I'm into.
eliot said: {{I've done my share of "distortion oud" tracks, even a really hard-core industrial track or two. I'll warn you, though, it takes a ton of
time to develop an interesting "voice" for the oud in a rock or funk context. Plugging ouds into pedals often yields less-than-optimal results. I've
spent years with experimentation and still am not quite satisfied...}}
Interesting. I'm actually interested in remaining acoustic and summoning rock sounds through my rhythms, harmonies and melodies. I have a few
pedals, and I'm sure I'd at least try them out... I won't be disappointed if the results are "less-than-optimal." 
SamirCanada said: {{As long as at the end of the show there isnt any oud smashing against the floor!! Iam down}}
I'm not big on mutilating instruments, so don't worry.
SamirCanada also said: {{ But to repeat what Palestine has said, arabic music has many different maqams witch you could say represent scales in
western music. But they are all to bring diferent moods to your piece. The oud has the ability to play those 1/2 tones and 1/4 tones that are in those
maqam.
http://www.maqamworld.com is a excelent source of info on that so you should explore what notes you ca recreate with the oud.}}
Thanks for the website! I started to check it out, and it looks like a great resource. I forgot to mention before that I am studying to be a music
teacher, so the more exposure I get to different things, the more diversity I can teach when I get a job. I really don't know anything about maqamat,
so it will be worth taking a good look at!
Also, SamirCanada said: {{ Also maybe more experianced people can clarify this but. I dont think you can tune the oud the same way has a guitar: I
mean Iam not shure if the tension aplied when doing such a thing is all that great. Someone like Elie could clarify this. }}
Good! I'm not interested in pretending that an oud is a guitar without frets! I'll be happy to experiment with ways to tune the strings, and the
less like a guitar, the better, because it will force me to play in new ways!
Thanks again to all of you for your encouragement and practical advice! As I have absolutely no extra money now, it will be a while before I can
afford an oud or cumbus to begin experimenting with, but it's an inspiring idea.
Gratefully,
Andrew
Further comments welcome!
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tezza
Oud Addict
Posts: 47
Registered: 10-17-2004
Location: Dubai
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Mood: relaxed
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As a former rock/pop musician, I'll make a couple of observations if I may...
Eliot makes a great point about the baglama-saz. The first time i heard it played live was at a bus stop in Turkey. This guy had it plugged in to a
bunch of pedals and a little amp and it sounded wonderful -- distorted, hipnotic. In rock music terms, it's very Velvet Underground. It's very hard
for the natural sound of the saz to be heard in a performance space -- it's way too soft a sound -- especially because of where the sound hole is
placed. In Istanbul there are heaps of shops where you can purchase an electric saz (as well as a couple on the internet). I'd recommend it over an
oud in a rock 'setting', although the saz does have frets, they can be adjusted (I've never been tempted to move mine!).
You didn't mention what type of cumbus you wanted, I assume you mean the cumbus oud?
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jazzchiss
Oud Junkie
Posts: 217
Registered: 12-20-2004
Location: Madrid
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Mood: Improvising
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Rabih Abou-Khalil
I don’t know oud musicians playing rock, but there is an excellent example of jazz fusion done by Rabih Abou-Khalil ( you can view his profile at
http://www.enjarecords.com/bioindex.php ). He plays with all kind of western musicians: sax, tuba, accordion, bass... and he conserves his Arab
character and approach of playing. His compositions are sometimes near to atonality. You can hear some demos at http://www.mp3gate.ru/rabih_abou_khalil.shtml . I hope you will enjoy it!
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
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Mood: Gebran Tueni Lives For Ever, 12-12-05.
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Hi Andrew,
I am 100% Lebanese and I certainly will not be offended at all by your exploration and musical expression of the oud.
However, if you would like to smash ouds on stage like some rock musicians do with guitars, please use the Khalifa tourist replica ouds for that
purpose .
I am pretty occupied for the rest of the week, but I'll answer your strings question as soon as I get a chance.
I have also posted a link in one of the threads to some wild preformance on the oud by a couple of oudists from Moracan or Tunisian origins but reside
in France. I'll try to find that for you.
Best of luck and post some samples,
Elie
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mourad_X
Oud Junkie
Posts: 181
Registered: 5-4-2004
Location: Almanistan;-)
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Mood: No Mood
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hi nodanim
welcome to the forums
there is a band in canada called "the tee party"
they are all canadians (i think) and they are playing there rock-music with all kind of eastern instruments. and with oud as well
it sounds like in the 70th when the beatles made some songs with
ravi shankar (the indian sitar guru) but more melancholic
check out google i'm shure you will find them there
i have played my oud with a reggae band for some songs
and some times iwork with drum n' bass and asian underground
djs and musicians in the studio and on stage
but my focus is more and more on the arabic and turkish classics
now i foundet a duo with another one from marocco he plays violin
and oud also... inshallah we have a little ensemble in the future
regards
mourad
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mourad_X
Oud Junkie
Posts: 181
Registered: 5-4-2004
Location: Almanistan;-)
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the link to the tea party
here it is
http://www.teaparty.com/
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NodalNim
Oud Admirer
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Registered: 3-14-2005
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Hi! Thanks for continued feedback! Some responses:
tezza said: {{In Istanbul there are heaps of shops where you can purchase an electric saz (as well as a couple on the internet). I'd recommend it
over an oud in a rock 'setting', although the saz does have frets, they can be adjusted (I've never been tempted to move mine!).
You didn't mention what type of cumbus you wanted, I assume you mean the cumbus oud?}}
The cumbus I've looked at online is the one some websites call "Standard Cumbus," which is the closest to an oud, with no frets. The cumbus is
supposedly more "percussive" than the oud which might make it fit better with my style, but until I try them both, it's hard to know which to invest
in. The saz is probably a quite effective electric instrument, but if it has frets, movable or not, I think it defeats the purpose of buying a new
instrument for me. I'm curious to hear it, though!
jazzchis said: {{I don’t know oud musicians playing rock, but there is an excellent example of jazz fusion done by Rabih Abou-Khalil ( you can view
his profile at http://www.enjarecords.com/bioindex.php ). He plays with all kind of western musicians: sax, tuba, accordion, bass... and he conserves his Arab
character and approach of playing. His compositions are sometimes near to atonality. You can hear some demos at http://www.mp3gate.ru/rabih_abou_khalil.shtml . I hope you will enjoy it! }}
Thank you! I do enjoy it! This is an impressive fusion of sounds, and a really cool concept, too. Neat!
Elie Riachi said: {{I am 100% Lebanese and I certainly will not be offended at all by your exploration and musical expression of the oud.}}
Thank you! I am glad to know that.
Elie Riachi also said: {{ I have also posted a link in one of the threads to some wild preformance on the oud by a couple of oudists from Moracan or
Tunisian origins but reside in France. I'll try to find that for you.}}
That sounds interesting, I'm sure I'd love to hear it.
mourad_X said: {{welcome to the forums}}
Thank you! I like it here.
mourad_X said: {{there is a band in canada called "the tee party"
they are all canadians (i think) and they are playing there rock-music with all kind of eastern instruments. and with oud as well
it sounds like in the 70th when the beatles made some songs with
ravi shankar (the indian sitar guru) but more melancholic}}
Interesting! From the samples and video, I'm not really hearing any eastern instruments. Maybe they're used on other tracks. Anyway, that's a cool idea.
Thanks, everyone, for your comments, links, advice, etc.! I am continuing to feel inspired by them!
-Andrew
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palestine48
Oud Junkie
Posts: 448
Registered: 6-9-2004
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Mood: Free Palestine
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I forgot to mention also that My friends usually do a weekly jam session here in san francisco and we bring all kinds of instruments and just play.
including the oud. So i have no doubt it can't be done. Good luck to you
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Orahim1
Oud Maniac
Posts: 98
Registered: 2-7-2004
Location: California, USA
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While I can't say that I've heard the oud in a rock setting, I have plenty of CDs that have Middle Eastern songs (that have the oud) that have been
remixed by Djs and actually sound pretty good. Being a former DJ in a couple of bands I tend to lean toward songs that have a nice beat behind them.
That said, there is nothing, in my mind, that comes close to hearing the oud all by itself. If you are interested in some fusion stuff, there is an
artist named Falik who I enjoy. At first I thought he was playing an electric saz but it turns out to be an Irish bouzouki. He incorporates a Middle
Eastern influence and his songs, for the most part, are fantastic. Here's a link:
http://magnatune.com/artists/falik
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
Member Is Offline
Mood: Aksak
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You also mentioned cumbus in your first post - I just remembered, Mor ve Otesi uses a cumbus in some of their songs. They're the greatest Turkish rock
band currently (neat videos, too) - check out the song "Cambaz" if you haven't already.
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biffbang
Oud Admirer
Posts: 3
Registered: 3-4-2005
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60's Band Kaleidoscope
Hi,
This may be a little off topic, but there was a great (little known) US 60's group named Kaleidoscope which used a lot of oud, saz etc in their songs.
Their style is a cross between The Byrds, early REM, bluegrass/folk with quite a dollop of middle eastern.
The famous guitarist David Lindley was in the band, but it was David Feldthouse who played the middle eastern instruments. Feldthouse had spent 6
years in Izmit, Turkey when he was a youngster and lapped up the local music and brought his instruments back with him.
His playing may not be considered great, but certainly added a great flavour to the band - expecially on instrumentals which featured his oud playing
like 'Taxim'.
Just thought I'd throw this in as a historical aside in the use of oud in Western rock.
Cheers,
Ian
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