Daryush
Oud Lover
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Fretting Question (Touching adjacent strings)
Hello,
Coming from playing classical guitar which has a very wide neck, I am finding it difficult to fret on the oud without also touching adjacent strings
slightly. The oud I have is a cheap model and quite narrow at the nut. Fretting, for example, a quarter tone from the open D string means most of the
time I am also touching the G string above it somewhat.
My question: Is this simply my bad technique which isn't allowing me to cleanly fret a quarter tone (or even half tone) from open strings? Or is it
somewhat 'usual' to be touching adjacent strings when fretting?
Another related question: in classical guitar, it is sometimes common to keep a note fretted and let it ring out, even when playing other notes on
another string. Is this common practice when playing the oud (Arabic style more specifically), or should it not be fretted once it is no longer
'needed'? For example, if I fret B on the G string, and then play the open C, should I remain fretting the B, or release before the C?
Many thanks for any advice!
Best wishes.
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MoH
Oud Maniac
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I also had problems with touching the adjacent strings at first. The nut of my oud was also pretty narrow, but I ended up getting a new nut with wider
spacing between the courses, and this helped a lot. Does it seem like there's some space on either end of the 1st and 6th courses of the nut on your
oud? If so, maybe you could get a new one that makes use of any wasted space.
This could also be a problem of high action, and I think even on a guitar a high action makes it harder to avoid other strings.
In any case, I think most ouds have a somewhat narrow neck, and it seems like a lot of players develop some sort of way to compensate. For example,
see in this video around 12 seconds how he bends the 4th (A) strings up to avoid touching the D strings:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08DcuUp7L3Q
I think in general the left hand on oud is probably more similar to cello or violin, and it seems like fingers are slightly more curved than they
would be on guitar.
As for the second question, I would say it depends on what sound you're going for exactly, but in general, I think it's good practice to keep your
finger on a string while you play a note above it. See for example here right at the beginning how he keeps his finger on b while playing c:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78HXAvMKT_4
Sometimes it's used to add some interesting dissonance, and both notes might be played simultaneously. Again, it depends on the desired sound, so this
isn't a hard and fast rule.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by Daryush  | wide neck, I am finding it difficult to fret on the oud without also touching adjacent strings slightly. The oud I have is a cheap model and quite
narrow at the nut. Fretting, for example, a quarter tone from the open D string means most of the time I am also touching the G string above it
somewhat.
My question: Is this simply my bad technique which isn't allowing me to cleanly fret a quarter tone (or even half tone) from open strings? Or is it
somewhat 'usual' to be touching adjacent strings when fretting?
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Hey Daryush! Welcome to the forums. I'll try to help give some perspective on your questions.
The oud quite normally has a much narrower neck than guitar. Some ouds have a very narrow neck, which can indeed make it pretty difficult to cleanly
finger the note without blocking adjacent strings. Without seeing you play, it's impossible to say how much is due to your technique and how much due
to your oud. Regardless, you should be able to play with out interfering with adjacent strings for the most part, just as on guitar. As MoH notes:
coming from classical guitar, it's very likely that your left hand position needs some adjustment, as guitarists typically place the hand differently
(oud is more like violin position).
(side note—we don't usually say we "fret" notes on oud, because the oud has no frets! Notes are "fingered," like on violin).
| Quote: Originally posted by Daryush |
Another related question: in classical guitar, it is sometimes common to keep a note fretted and let it ring out, even when playing other notes on
another string. Is this common practice when playing the oud (Arabic style more specifically), or should it not be fretted once it is no longer
'needed'? For example, if I fret B on the G string, and then play the open C, should I remain fretting the B, or release before the C?
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This is a personal/musical choice and depends on the circumstances. The simplest answer is that you should be able to keep the note ringing
if you want to. In fast passages it is often cleaner if you don't, but there is definitely a use for this technique.
Musically, this technique (laissez vibrer, or l.v.) is similar to the sustain pedal on a piano—it can add richness to a passage but it can also
muddy and obscure the intent. It remains a musical choice whether you should use it in any particular context. Due to the use of chords on
guitar and the fact that it is generally a solo instrument, the technique is more common there than it is on oud (primarily melodic and ensemble
instrument). It is used though.
In your specific example, there are a number of other choices—it's not a binary choice.
For example, you can:
Let the B ring until just after you play C, then stop it (so they overlap very slightly)
Stop the B at exactly the same time you play the C
Stop the B just before you play the C (creating slight separation)
Leave your finger slightly depressing the B so that the note is not sounding but ready to play
Leave the B slightly pressed so that the sound is just quieter and dies more quickly
In general, the length of time that one allows a note to vibrate is neglected by most oud players but is a significant aspect of musicality amongst
advanced players.
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Daryush
Oud Lover
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Registered: 7-15-2020
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Thank you both for the informative replies! This forum and its members' expertise are certainly an invaluable resource.
Playing around with left-hand positions over the last few days, I have realised myself that the fingers need to be more curled to hit the strings at a
more 'straight down' angle than the classical guitar left-hand position (or at least the one I'm used to) - this is helping finger the notes more
cleanly, but still needs lots of practice before I'm confident that I'm not blocking strings too often!
Another question regarding right-hand technique (although please do say if I should open a separate thread for this):
I am able to produce more-or-less clean sounding downstrokes when playing slowly, using the motion of a semi-circle or a 'c' and landing on the string
below without hitting the soundboard.
However, I am finding upstrokes more difficult. While a downstroke hits both strings, it seems that an upstroke actually pushes the upper string into
the lower one of the pair, causing both to resonate? Is this correct? I am finding it more difficult to get upstrokes as loud and clear as
downstrokes, as the downstroke relies on gravity but the upstroke seems to be more of a 'flick'? When making an upstroke on an already resonating
string, I also get a lot more 'clack' sound than downstrokes. (I am using the basic, thin pyramid risha which probably isn't helping) Maybe this will
improve as my wrist gets used to the motion...?
Many thanks!
Best wishes.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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Location: California
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The upstroke on double strings will be on only the lower string of the pair unless a revolving wrist technique is used. Most players of oud, mandolin,
tar, bouzouki, etc don't use this awkward technique. Instead they take care to use just a bit less force on the downstroke and a bit more on the up
stroke. This is practiced so that down and up can be equal volume— except for when it is musically advantageous to maximize the difference in the
sound by between down and up. It's the same on guitar. A downstroke is helped by gravity. An upstroke is not. But with double strung instruments like
oud, the difference is doubled. The way I look at it is that in order to play two downstrokes in succession it is necessary to bring the risha back
to the place from which it descended when it began its first downstroke. The hand is moving up so the string can be contacted during that upward
motion with no revolving of the wrist.
I don't know what you mean about a C or semi-circle. Watching the videos of good oud players I see no semi-circles.
Here's a link to a short video where you can clearly see the right hand of Simon Shaheen, whose right hand I admire. Down is down. Up is up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FhpwBOMQag
another:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78HXAvMKT_4
The clicking noise may be connected to the thinness of the risha but more likely it is connected to holding the risha in a way that a click is the
likely outcome. Search this forum for how to hold the risha. And/or look at videos.
About your earlier question: I don't understand why touching more than the intended string pair with a left hand finger is a problem. Oud is
generally played one note at a time. If I am playing the DD course why does it matter if my gg or AA course would sound muddy if it were played. It
isn't being played. Could you please explain the context where this becomes a problem?
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Daryush
Oud Lover
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Hi Jody, thanks for your reply.
As for the 'semi-circle' motion, I meant that the wrist rotates every so slightly so the string is pushed downwards and slightly inwards on contact
and then the release moves slightly outward to land to the string below (creating what I perceive as a tiny 'c'-like motion). Of course, explaining
such motions with words is always difficult, if I get a chance I will try to make some videos in the future when my playing is a bit more
respectable!
Thank you for the clarification regarding upstroke.
For my earlier question regarding touching adjacent strings with the left hand fingers - I am aware oud music is mostly one note at a time and so
touching an adjacent string would have little practical impact. The question was more just out of curiosity regarding technique as I don't have any
teachers available nearby and I am keen to 'drill' myself into using a good technique from the outset.
Best wishes.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Hi Daryush,
There’s been a great deal said and written about the right hand technique on the oud.
There is some agreement and some disagreement about the mechanics in those discussions, but if you look at good oud players they all seem to play very
similarly. So the disagreement is in the perception of how it works and how to describe what is happening, not in the technique itself.
For that reason, I suggest watching as many videos as you can and attempting to imitate what you see. Our brains are amazing devices; they can pick up
incredible subtleties from simply seeing and imitating something, and can grasp and adopt complex motions without us even consciously understanding
what we are doing. Jody's suggestion of watching Simon Shaheen is a good one—I think Simon has the most clean, versatile and virtuosic technique
in the classical Arabic style. The so-called "Iraqi" style (exemplified by Munir Bashir and Naseer Shamma) is a bit different, as is the Turkish
style. They all have their own strengths and weaknesses, and some modern players also combine elements of each. I may be biased since Simon was one
of my main teachers (along with his brother Najib and Bassam Saba), but one of the reasons I sought him out was that I was already impressed with his
mastery of the oud.
A good teacher is valuable in that they can directly observe what you are doing and diagnose problems, giving you real feedback about what your issues
are and how to correct them. For most people, this greatly speeds up progress and avoids having to unlearn bad habits that have become ingrained in
your playing. There are a lot of particular issues for guitar players that can lead to bad habits (interestingly, the problems for classical, jazz,
and rock guitarists each tend to be slightly different due to the habits of those styles).
All things being equal, in-person lessons are ideal, of course. But online lessons are still very helpful if the teacher knows how to diagnose issues
and show you how to address them.
I teach many students online and have specific methods for dealing with these issues. I'm not saying "study with me!" but just that I think you
should study with someone—there are many excellent players who are offering lessons online. Particularly someone like you with a musical
background can get a ton out of online lessons.
For what it’s worth, I just recorded a slow-motion video of myself out of curiosity: the upstrokes are definitely primarily hitting the string
nearer to the pick. However, the pick does seem to hit the other strings less forcefully. Regardless, the second string vibrates as well, whether
from being hit or from the sympathetic vibrations of the nearby string. I don’t think anything is happening from the strings hitting each
other—that would cause noise and result in a disorganized, muted sound.
Regarding gravity: while gravity does help, the primary energy of both strokes is in the muscles of the forearm. From my perspective: The upstroke
uses a twisting motion in the forearm muscles, which creates potential energy stored in the muscles that is then released on the downstrokes. It is
this release of stored energy in the muscles that is the primary force, not gravity (though again, gravity plays a small role). Thus, all of the
effort in both up and down strokes is expended in the upstroke. The downstroke is merely a release of the stored energy.
This is for your basic stroke; if you want an accented stroke you may additionally flick your wrist and/or employ the muscles of your thumb or index
finger.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1353
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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| Quote: Originally posted by Daryush | Hi Jody, thanks for your reply.
As for the 'semi-circle' motion, I meant that the wrist rotates every so slightly so the string is pushed downwards and slightly inwards on contact
and then the release moves slightly outward to land to the string below (creating what I perceive as a tiny 'c'-like motion). Of course, explaining
such motions with words is always difficult, if I get a chance I will try to make some videos in the future when my playing is a bit more
respectable!
Thank you for the clarification regarding upstroke.
For my earlier question regarding touching adjacent strings with the left hand fingers - I am aware oud music is mostly one note at a time and so
touching an adjacent string would have little practical impact. The question was more just out of curiosity regarding technique as I don't have any
teachers available nearby and I am keen to 'drill' myself into using a good technique from the outset.
Best wishes.
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Thanks for the explanation. Now I get it.
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MattOud
Oud Junkie
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Here is one more video that really gives a good look at the risha technique:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIHMR29WVtA ...from Omar Bashir.
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