Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Need advice on specific fast techniques
Hello Dear fellow ud players,
I hope you guys could give me some advice on the following. I seem to have some difficulty executing certain fast techniques on the ud.
An example would be a specific piece in the attached audio starting from 0:10 until 0:12.
Playing this quick piece on my ud (which is tuned FADgcf) requires me to play most of the notes on the highest f string starting close to the
neck-body conjuction of the ud.
I don't really have a problem with that but I have a feeling there are more efficient/easier ways to execute this. For example, I have to move my hand
very fast down he neck (towards the pegbox) to reach the lower notes of the same f string. Perhaps using certain fingers to play the higher notes in
the first place would lessen te distance to the lower notes making the fast shift of my hand easier.
I also seem to “skip” more or less some of the notes because of the haste. In the concerning piece, every note is very clearly struck and heard.
Perhaps the timing of when I should do an up- or downstroke must be changed but I don’t know in which exact way.
If anyone could shed some light on these factors in the context of how this concerning piece should be played the best way, by showing a video of the
technique or by any other means, I would appreciate it very much.
Wishing you all the best,
Johnnyboy
Attachment: Audio Piece.mp3 (371kB)
This file has been downloaded 89 times
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
This is a little confusing.
If you have a high f', the notes in the passage are Bb A G A Bb (on the G string) C D (on the C string) F G (on the F string) E F D E C D (on the C
string) Bb C A (on the G string). You never get out of the first position. If you don't have the high f' then you have to go up and down the c'
string up to the neck-body joint, which is a little tougher to get clean. Or are you transposing the whole passage up? Even without the high f' you
only need two positions: 1st finger on D and first finger on E. You can pick all the 8th notes down and the 16th notes down-up. You do need to finger
some upper neighbors with the 4th finger instead of the open string to get it clean like the recording.
If you could post a video you you playing it, it would be easier to make a helpful suggestion.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  | This is a little confusing.
If you have a high f', the notes in the passage are Bb A G A Bb (on the G string) C D (on the C string) F G (on the F string) E F D E C D (on the C
string) Bb C A (on the G string). You never get out of the first position. If you don't have the high f' then you have to go up and down the c'
string up to the neck-body joint, which is a little tougher to get clean. Or are you transposing the whole passage up? Even without the high f' you
only need two positions: 1st finger on D and first finger on E. You can pick all the 8th notes down and the 16th notes down-up. You do need to finger
some upper neighbors with the 4th finger instead of the open string to get it clean like the recording.
If you could post a video you you playing it, it would be easier to make a helpful suggestion.
|
Thank you for the advice and apologies for the confusion. I am indeed transposing the piece 5 semitones up but uploaded the wrong audio piece. I have
uploaded the correct piece now.
Here's a video on google drive showing how I place and shift my fingers during the piece. I'm alternating between up- and downstrokes for each note.
Video
Am I using a wrong technique / is there a more efficient way to do this?
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
you seem to be doing it fine and just need to work a bit on getting it cleaner. Also the pattern continues - your last two notes should continue the
pattern of upper neighbor tones. In the original key it's Bb C A, with the C played with the 4th finger (2 4 1) instead of just (2 1) as you are
doing.
You have it pretty clean already, just a matter of what tempo you can still make it clean at.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | | Also the pattern continues - your last two notes should continue the pattern of upper neighbor tones. In the original key it's Bb C A, with the C
played with the 4th finger (2 4 1) instead of just (2 1) as you are doing. |
Are you sure? I am only hearing Bb A at the end in the original, not the same pattern. But your description might be a good exercise nonetheless.
Here's the concerning moment this Youtube video
Thanks for the feedback, I take it these fingers are the correct ones to use for this piece when doing it on one string.
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Listening more closely, I agree with you. That makes it easier.
For some reason the first excerpt above sounded a bit muddy on my computer but on the youtube clip is a bit clearer.
Continuing in the way I described would be very common so still good to practice, but I think you're right that he's not doing it here.
Your fingering is probably how I would do it. Some people might play the F-G (in the original key) with the first and third fingers, but then you need
to shift down to E, then to D. So two shifts instead of one. Depending on how strong your 4th finger is and how good you are at shifting, that could
end up cleaner. Might be worth practicing both ways but the way you did it in your video is how I would be inclined to play it.
You didn't show your right hand, so not sure if there are inefficiencies there, but your picking sounds good overall.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | Listening more closely, I agree with you. That makes it easier.
For some reason the first excerpt above sounded a bit muddy on my computer but on the youtube clip is a bit clearer.
Continuing in the way I described would be very common so still good to practice, but I think you're right that he's not doing it here.
Your fingering is probably how I would do it. Some people might play the F-G (in the original key) with the first and third fingers, but then you need
to shift down to E, then to D. So two shifts instead of one. Depending on how strong your 4th finger is and how good you are at shifting, that could
end up cleaner. Might be worth practicing both ways but the way you did it in your video is how I would be inclined to play it.
You didn't show your right hand, so not sure if there are inefficiencies there, but your picking sounds good overall.
|
Thanks a lot for the feedback and verification!
I'm indeed not really good yet at shifting quickly so perhaps trying it with the 1st and 3rd finger could improve this skill.
You're right, I should've shown my right hand as well.
I have this (wrong?) habit of holding the reesha a bit loose between my thumb and index finger. I'm mostly leaning my thumb on top of it to prevent it
from bending upwards when doing a downstroke while my index finger is lightly touching the reesha from underneath. I developed this habit as a reflex
because I don't really like the harsh string strike sounds when the reesha is held firmly by both fingers.
However, my habit really shows its limitations when I want to play fast pieces like this one while trying to make each note sound as clear as
possible. Because I don't hold it firmly, the fast notes may not sound very clear because the reesha is bending and slipping all over the place.
It forces me to hold the reesha firmly and I notice all of a sudden how much easier the fast playing goes. It gives me much better control over the
reesha because it represents my hand movements much better.
I'm not really sure how firmly the reesha should be held while preventing the strike sounds effectively. Perhaps one should find a balance and get
used to it.
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
Yes, this is a good observation. Lack of support from the index finger will definitely weaken the clarity of a passage like this.
A lot of factors go into this; I wouldn't immediately jump to a "firmer" grip, as this can also potentially create undesirable tension. This really
requires a bit more forensic evaluation to explore the possible variations in your grip that might help. Everything from the elbow to the pinky
finger, various angles and preparation could all be factors beyond simply a firmer grip.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | Yes, this is a good observation. Lack of support from the index finger will definitely weaken the clarity of a passage like this.
A lot of factors go into this; I wouldn't immediately jump to a "firmer" grip, as this can also potentially create undesirable tension. This really
requires a bit more forensic evaluation to explore the possible variations in your grip that might help. Everything from the elbow to the pinky
finger, various angles and preparation could all be factors beyond simply a firmer grip.
|
I will try experimenting with these factors. Thank you so much for your time and advice.
|
|
|
maraoud108
Oud Maniac
Posts: 74
Registered: 2-3-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
These types of faster passages need to be looked at in terms of weeks or months to actually get them together.
Practice the passage very slowly, and gradually build up every day by one or two metronome markings. Every movement will become clear in this way.
Then go BEYOND the speed that you wish to play it at, by about 10BPM.
Also, try doing variations on this passage. Try playing it backwards. Different things like that.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | Yes, this is a good observation. Lack of support from the index finger will definitely weaken the clarity of a passage like this.
A lot of factors go into this; I wouldn't immediately jump to a "firmer" grip, as this can also potentially create undesirable tension. This really
requires a bit more forensic evaluation to explore the possible variations in your grip that might help. Everything from the elbow to the pinky
finger, various angles and preparation could all be factors beyond simply a firmer grip.
|
| Quote: Originally posted by maraoud108 | These types of faster passages need to be looked at in terms of weeks or months to actually get them together.
Practice the passage very slowly, and gradually build up every day by one or two metronome markings. Every movement will become clear in this way.
Then go BEYOND the speed that you wish to play it at, by about 10BPM.
Also, try doing variations on this passage. Try playing it backwards. Different things like that. |
Thanks, I indeed often find myself trying out different variations of a fast passage to get used to different patterns.
I found a very useful tutorial on which fingers to use on which down/upstrokes rythms when you're playing high notes close to the body of the ud. The
tutor is explaining it in Arabic but you can see how he does it.
Video 1
I skipped it to a certain moment to show you how he does it. Regardless, the whole video is very useful.
Here's another one:
Video 2
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by maraoud108 | These types of faster passages need to be looked at in terms of weeks or months to actually get them together.
Practice the passage very slowly, and gradually build up every day by one or two metronome markings. Every movement will become clear in this way.
Then go BEYOND the speed that you wish to play it at, by about 10BPM.
Also, try doing variations on this passage. Try playing it backwards. Different things like that. |
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | Yes, this is a good observation. Lack of support from the index finger will definitely weaken the clarity of a passage like this.
A lot of factors go into this; I wouldn't immediately jump to a "firmer" grip, as this can also potentially create undesirable tension. This really
requires a bit more forensic evaluation to explore the possible variations in your grip that might help. Everything from the elbow to the pinky
finger, various angles and preparation could all be factors beyond simply a firmer grip.
|
Apologies for bumping this thread but I have a question regarding a certain technique that I noticed.
When doing a transit from a string to a string above it (i.e. string with lower pitch) I always hit that upper string with a downstroke, regardless of
how I hit the string below it.
However, I noticed some players sometimes transit to an upper string with an upstroke when they ended the string below with a downstroke.
To me, this move feels quite awkward to do because I'd have to temporarily quickly change the angle of the reesha to prevent accidentally hitting the
string below along the way during the upstroke of the upper string.
This makes me wondering, can this technique be very useful in some passages such that it is advised to practice it? Do you guys use it often?
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Johnnyboy |
Apologies for bumping this thread but I have a question regarding a certain technique that I noticed.
When doing a transit from a string to a string above it (i.e. string with lower pitch) I always hit that upper string with a downstroke, regardless of
how I hit the string below it.
However, I noticed some players sometimes transit to an upper string with an upstroke when they ended the string below with a downstroke.
To me, this move feels quite awkward to do because I'd have to temporarily quickly change the angle of the reesha to prevent accidentally hitting the
string below along the way during the upstroke of the upper string.
This makes me wondering, can this technique be very useful in some passages such that it is advised to practice it? Do you guys use it often?
|
Yes, I think it's a valuable technique. It's maybe a bit more "modern" of a technique, in that in old-school playing it seems like players almost
always started a new string on a downstroke in faster passages.
It's a more advanced technique, so for less advanced players I think it's much more important to focus on developing the more traditional way first.
But if you are able to play this reasonably cleanly then it's probably worth your time developing this skill.
There are several ways one can cross a string. I wrote a pretty detailed analysis here,.
A note about pick angle, hand angle and string crossing:
Making these kinds of crossings often depend not on how you play the target note, but how you played the preceding note. These are the factors that
you can adjust to experiment with getting it cleaner, all affect your pick angle and/or hand angle:
Forearm supination/pronation
Wrist flexion/extension
Wrist deviation (adduction/abduction)
Risha grip/position/angle
In addition, risha depth in the strings is important to consider. If your risha is buried deep in the strings it will take more extra movement to
clear the strings.
Note that in normal playing position, upstrokes are free - clear of the strings, and downstrokes are trapped in the strings (requiring some extra
motion to play anything but an upstroke on the same string or a downstroke on the next string). You can work on being better at getting out of the
trapped position, and/or you can work on developing a free downstroke that ends up clear of the strings. Both are worthwhile, IMO.
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1353
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Johnnyboy |
When doing a transit from a string to a string above it (i.e. string with lower pitch) I always hit that upper string with a downstroke, regardless of
how I hit the string below it.
However, I noticed some players sometimes transit to an upper string with an upstroke when they ended the string below with a downstroke.
To me, this move feels quite awkward to do because I'd have to temporarily quickly change the angle of the reesha to prevent accidentally hitting the
string below along the way during the upstroke of the upper string.
This makes me wondering, can this technique be very useful in some passages such that it is advised to practice it? Do you guys use it often?
|
Can you ask the question again please, using all words indicating *above* to mean higher pitch and all words indicating *below* to mean lower pitch?
You seem to be saying that when you leave a higher pitch string and go to a lower pitched string your final stroke on the higher pitch string is a
downstroke. But what I think you mean that when you land on the lower pitch string you do so with a downstroke. Is that right? Also not quite making
sense to me is the concept of changing the reesha angle in order to make a down stroke on the lower pitched string. Following a downstroke with an
upstroke on a new string needn't involve much of a change from following a downstroke with an upstroke on the same string —with one exception: when
making the final downstroke on the upper string (the one higher in pitch) I would not play a rest stroke. I'd play a free stroke. Otherwise, yeah, the
reesha can get tangled. And considering how loosely I hold the reesha (not tight at all) I could actually lose my grip. The reesha could go flying or
get tangled in the strings or even fall in one of the sound holes !
I sometimes follow an upstroke on a string with a dragging motion to an adjacent lower string. It sounds like 2 strokes but it's really one. To do
that my wrist position is different from an ordinary upstroke.
When descending in pitch between strings if the last stroke on a higher pitched string is on downstroke I sometimes play the first stroke on a lower
pitch string with an up stroke especially when playing at high speed. For instance when playing a descending C major scale on an oud whose upper four
courses are cc gg dd aa if I played the first 4 notes on the gg course I would play DUDU (c b a g). Now if I played the first note on the cc course I
would play the same pattern of DUDU. At medium speed DDUP
would give the music a more oldtime Arabic sound (which actually accords with a 19th century European plucked instrument sound... some Italian
classical mandolinists did this for instance). But at high speed it seems ok to keep reversing direction. Now moving to the DD course that would be
DU. Now we come to the final note. C on the AA course. It could be Up or Down. It does sound a bit different. I would characterize the effect of
DUDUDUDU as "lighter". And maybe less "atmospheric".
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | | Quote: Originally posted by Johnnyboy |
Apologies for bumping this thread but I have a question regarding a certain technique that I noticed.
When doing a transit from a string to a string above it (i.e. string with lower pitch) I always hit that upper string with a downstroke, regardless of
how I hit the string below it.
However, I noticed some players sometimes transit to an upper string with an upstroke when they ended the string below with a downstroke.
To me, this move feels quite awkward to do because I'd have to temporarily quickly change the angle of the reesha to prevent accidentally hitting the
string below along the way during the upstroke of the upper string.
This makes me wondering, can this technique be very useful in some passages such that it is advised to practice it? Do you guys use it often?
|
Yes, I think it's a valuable technique. It's maybe a bit more "modern" of a technique, in that in old-school playing it seems like players almost
always started a new string on a downstroke in faster passages.
It's a more advanced technique, so for less advanced players I think it's much more important to focus on developing the more traditional way first.
But if you are able to play this reasonably cleanly then it's probably worth your time developing this skill.
There are several ways one can cross a string. I wrote a pretty detailed analysis here,.
A note about pick angle, hand angle and string crossing:
Making these kinds of crossings often depend not on how you play the target note, but how you played the preceding note. These are the factors that
you can adjust to experiment with getting it cleaner, all affect your pick angle and/or hand angle:
Forearm supination/pronation
Wrist flexion/extension
Wrist deviation (adduction/abduction)
Risha grip/position/angle
In addition, risha depth in the strings is important to consider. If your risha is buried deep in the strings it will take more extra movement to
clear the strings.
Note that in normal playing position, upstrokes are free - clear of the strings, and downstrokes are trapped in the strings (requiring some extra
motion to play anything but an upstroke on the same string or a downstroke on the next string). You can work on being better at getting out of the
trapped position, and/or you can work on developing a free downstroke that ends up clear of the strings. Both are worthwhile, IMO.
|
Wow, that link is a very useful read. Thank you very much.
With a free stroke, do you mean that the reesha moves away from the face of the ud, escaping the strings?
| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | | Quote: Originally posted by Johnnyboy |
When doing a transit from a string to a string above it (i.e. string with lower pitch) I always hit that upper string with a downstroke, regardless of
how I hit the string below it.
However, I noticed some players sometimes transit to an upper string with an upstroke when they ended the string below with a downstroke.
To me, this move feels quite awkward to do because I'd have to temporarily quickly change the angle of the reesha to prevent accidentally hitting the
string below along the way during the upstroke of the upper string.
This makes me wondering, can this technique be very useful in some passages such that it is advised to practice it? Do you guys use it often?
|
Can you ask the question again please, using all words indicating *above* to mean higher pitch and all words indicating *below* to mean lower pitch?
You seem to be saying that when you leave a higher pitch string and go to a lower pitched string your final stroke on the higher pitch string is a
downstroke. But what I think you mean that when you land on the lower pitch string you do so with a downstroke. Is that right? Also not quite making
sense to me is the concept of changing the reesha angle in order to make a down stroke on the lower pitched string. Following a downstroke with an
upstroke on a new string needn't involve much of a change from following a downstroke with an upstroke on the same string —with one exception: when
making the final downstroke on the upper string (the one higher in pitch) I would not play a rest stroke. I'd play a free stroke. Otherwise, yeah, the
reesha can get tangled. And considering how loosely I hold the reesha (not tight at all) I could actually lose my grip. The reesha could go flying or
get tangled in the strings or even fall in one of the sound holes !
I sometimes follow an upstroke on a string with a dragging motion to an adjacent lower string. It sounds like 2 strokes but it's really one. To do
that my wrist position is different from an ordinary upstroke.
When descending in pitch between strings if the last stroke on a higher pitched string is on downstroke I sometimes play the first stroke on a lower
pitch string with an up stroke especially when playing at high speed. For instance when playing a descending C major scale on an oud whose upper four
courses are cc gg dd aa if I played the first 4 notes on the gg course I would play DUDU (c b a g). Now if I played the first note on the cc course I
would play the same pattern of DUDU. At medium speed DDUP
would give the music a more oldtime Arabic sound (which actually accords with a 19th century European plucked instrument sound... some Italian
classical mandolinists did this for instance). But at high speed it seems ok to keep reversing direction. Now moving to the DD course that would be
DU. Now we come to the final note. C on the AA course. It could be Up or Down. It does sound a bit different. I would characterize the effect of
DUDUDUDU as "lighter". And maybe less "atmospheric". |
Thanks for the detailed info. What I was trying to say is that I have difficulty doing a final downstroke on a high pitch string and then immediately
doing an upstroke on the lower pitch string. Or as Brian Prunka described it accurately in his link:
option e: down-up from a high string to a low string (e.g., g to d) -
I'd have to quickly change the reesha's angle right after the downstroke on the high string in order to do a good upstroke on the lower string, which
seems to describe the free stroke that you're mentioning, otherwise the reesha would get tangled.
I am amazed that this technique helps you when doing fast passages. I happen to struggle quite a bit with it and for now I am only able to do this
when playing slow.
|
|
|
Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
|
|
From my perspective, you have to actually change the angle before the stroke and/or use wrist flexion/extension in the stroke in order to escape the
strings. If you change the angle of your pick after the down stroke it is too late.
I misunderstood what you were asking (I guess Jody was right that you needed to be clearer). When discussing music, "higher," "above," "below," and
"down" should always refer to pitch.
I don't think this technique is of too much importance, as I explain in the other thread. It is worthwhile if you really have all the other parts
extremely solid, but the return on investment of time is pretty low. So it depends on how you want to spend your practice time. I can think of a
lot of things that are likely to be more valuable.
That said, it is something that I work on, but it is still not a high priority.
|
|
|
Johnnyboy
Oud Maniac
Posts: 63
Registered: 7-1-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | From my perspective, you have to actually change the angle before the stroke and/or use wrist flexion/extension in the stroke in order to escape the
strings. If you change the angle of your pick after the down stroke it is too late.
I misunderstood what you were asking (I guess Jody was right that you needed to be clearer). When discussing music, "higher," "above," "below," and
"down" should always refer to pitch.
I don't think this technique is of too much importance, as I explain in the other thread. It is worthwhile if you really have all the other parts
extremely solid, but the return on investment of time is pretty low. So it depends on how you want to spend your practice time. I can think of a
lot of things that are likely to be more valuable.
That said, it is something that I work on, but it is still not a high priority.
|
Oh you did understand me correctly based on your fitting reply previously, but regardless I will surely keep that in mind.
Your advice is good to know. I will keep perfecting the other techniques first and see how far I'll come. Thanks again.
|
|
|
Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1353
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
Member Is Offline
|
|
A rest stroke comes to rest on the string "geographically" below the struck string. So a rest stroke on gg continues until it comes to rest on the the
member of the cc course that is closer to the gg. This gives a full deep sound. It uses gravity. The hand and reesha "falls". Both members of the gg
are struck. It is as if the reesha is a warm butter knife cutting through the gg strings which are made of soft butter. A free stroke is done at a
different angle. The reesha misses the cc. It often happens that only one of a pair is struck in the downward (toward earth) free stroke. The effect
is lighter.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
