Amon
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 8-25-2021
Member Is Offline
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Newbie questions(^-^')
Hi everyone,
how's everybody doing?
Thanks Mike for the permission to post on the forum, greatly appreciated 
I hope this is the right place to ask noob questions, please do smack me on the head if I'm overstepping.
I'm totally new both to the oud, fretless and middle-eastern/north-african music. I have some tiny experience with indian stuff through studying
hinduism, but that's about it, and mostly centered on percussions.
I've been trying to "connect" with guitars since college but it never really clicked.
Anyhow, I had the chance to befriend a professional percussionist working in this cultural music field, purchased a Riq drum from him, and ended up
buying my first oud through him.
It's a fixed bridge Zeryab marketed around 800 US dollars by the maker, I got it cheaper through my friend's connections with free shipping to Tokyo,
and I'm liking a lot how it feels and sounds.
It came in Ff and I have put some fresh Aquila Cc strings on it.
The Ff was too high/bright for me, but I have spare Ff strings to experiment on later.
I have a few pretty random questions I hope won't be offensive (culturally) or a waste of time to anyone, but I'd greatly appreciate savvy input from
whoever can spare the time. Thank you in advance.
- wittner's fine tuning pegs: I've notice a couple videos on youtube about how to install them, and my violinist friends all swear by them. Any
thoughts?
- quality of build and attention to details: my Zeryab sounds like what I was expecting and feels good around the neck, so I am currently satisfied
by this purchase and am overall glad I bought it. I went for this model based on my friend's recommendations (he works for a famous shop in europe,
they sell a lot of middle-eastern instruments year round, and often are visited by professional performers, who all say that model in particular is a
notch above its price range) So, again, I like this oud and have no regrets. This said, as someone used to buying guitars and hand drums, I have to
admit that the "finish" quality is definitely not what a guitar owner would expect from a 800 USD instrument. In guitar terms, I'd say this looks like
a 200-300 USD range guitars from mexico or Indonesia. It also doesn't look "new", and if I tried to sell it as such in Japan around its tag price,
literally nobody would believe it's new (lol) Now, from buying multiple drums from the middle-east, I know it seems to be a typical issue, since
literally all my drums came in looking "used", and decorative parts often look B-grade. (sorry if I'm offending anyone's culture, that is not at all
my goal, but simple observation as an international customer)
I'm rationalizing this phenomenon by assuming that there must be a big gap between buying-locally-as-a-native quality Versus
buying-abroad-as-a-foreign-customer. I get it.
This is just my observation, but if I had to put a price tag on this oud, I'd say "this can't be more than 400 dollars", which is probably what the
shop owner pays as a wholesaler.
For 800 dollars, I'd expect the craft team to at least remove wood chips from inside the body, and at least some proper filing/polishing around the
peg holes, some of which were chipped off at the tip. But again, it sounds great, the neck feels good, so I'm satisfied.
My question is, how much does one have to invest to reach the next level of quality when purchasing a second oud?
I'm in no hurry of course, but I have always enjoyed taking my time saving up money to buy nice tools that make me happy. And when I buy a "better"
oud, I'd like to avoid this price/build quality gap.
Is it possible to reach that kind of craftsmanship quality from abroad, or is it a must to go visit a local builder and select something there?
Because as far as I know, that's not going to be possible in Japan, as the only shops I've found are vastly overpriced and full of instruments from 10
years ago that didn't sell (because overpriced). I also can't imagine myself visiting Syria or Turkey anytime soon.
I was wondering how you good people go around buying your "better" ouds.
- strings. the Aquila (recommended by the shop) sound good to me, but is there any brand you'd recommend I try next? I'm a bit worried about not
being able to shop internationally if the covid situation gets worse, so I'm thinking I should get a few more strings pack while I can do so
easily.
- how to get into middle-eastern melodies when you come from a mostly white, western musical culture? Should I just check out random famous oud
players on youtube, or is there a wiser way to get used to the microtonal melodies?
Thank you, and sorry for the messy questions.
A great weekend to all.
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Oscarfalcini
Oud Admirer
Posts: 3
Registered: 1-16-2020
Member Is Offline
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Hi!
The price thing is a common experience when buying without personal contact with the luthier imo, happened to me a few times. Westerners really tend
to look at the price as a testimonial to quality...that’s not the case every time ^^
Finding a nice oud that fits ones wishes and ideas is a journey that needs some time when new to ouds, but the only real advice that I think can be
given is to investigate different luthiers of different places, contacting them and making a nice sound deal. If you’re after a nice
Mid/mid-high tier quality oud im guessing around 1500 dollars is what you can expect as a price, there’s always ways to find Cheeper ones used
and getting special deals but that’s what you can expect.
A method : finding out what type of oud type you like the most, â€turkishâ€â€Iraqiâ€â€Egyptian†etc - finding luthiers
that provide this type by examples of players you like - contacting luthier - making a deal.
String wise I would recommend Pyramid lute string in the gauges that fit the tuning you’re after. Or Aurora , or Kurschner, these are my
favorites and have a nice quality.
Best,
Oscar
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Amon
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 8-25-2021
Member Is Offline
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Quote: Originally posted by Oscarfalcini  | Hi!
The price thing is a common experience when buying without personal contact with the luthier imo, happened to me a few times. Westerners really tend
to look at the price as a testimonial to quality...that’s not the case every time ^^
Finding a nice oud that fits ones wishes and ideas is a journey that needs some time when new to ouds, but the only real advice that I think can be
given is to investigate different luthiers of different places, contacting them and making a nice sound deal. If you’re after a nice
Mid/mid-high tier quality oud im guessing around 1500 dollars is what you can expect as a price, there’s always ways to find Cheeper ones used
and getting special deals but that’s what you can expect.
A method : finding out what type of oud type you like the most, â€turkishâ€â€Iraqiâ€â€Egyptian†etc - finding luthiers
that provide this type by examples of players you like - contacting luthier - making a deal.
String wise I would recommend Pyramid lute string in the gauges that fit the tuning you’re after. Or Aurora , or Kurschner, these are my
favorites and have a nice quality.
Best,
Oscar |
Hello Oscar
Thank you for taking the time!
Gotcha on the price range, good to know. Yeah, I was suspecting it was going to be about personal contact. Something I was warned about by my
musician friends is that many middle-eastern craftsmen might completely ignore messages written in English, which sounds like an additional challenge
lol
At this point I have no idea about what type of oud music I'm liking... it's one of those things where westerners have Noooo idea how vast those
cultures are. It's great Something I'm mightily happy about is how the oud
seems to be very compatible with traditional japanese music, and even probably way more expressive than actual Japanese instruments like the shamisen.
Since arabic scales are being a handful, I'm also taking refuge in simpler Japanese and okinawan scales (one of which is pretty much a shorter hijaz
scale)
thank you for the strings advice, it's good to know there isn't any monopoly around a single brand
have a nice weekend!
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
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High end ouds are still quite affordable, relatively speaking, in terms of acoustic instruments. You can find high quality instruments in the
$1500-3000 USD range. Anything over that amount is typically highly ornate or an older instrument from a highly desirable luthier, namely the Nahat
family.
I haven't experienced ME luthiers who will outright ignore messages in English but there are a number of builders who don't speak English at all. If
there's a builder you're interested in there are always plenty of people who will help translate. Glad to hear you're enjoying the instrument!
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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| Quote: Originally posted by Amon |
- wittner's fine tuning pegs: I've notice a couple videos on youtube about how to install them, and my violinist friends all swear by them. Any
thoughts?
|
The fine tuning pegs are nice and not offensive. I've mainly had experience with the Pegheds version, which are very good. Knilling based their
design on the Pegheds version (they are built under license) but I've heard more mixed things about their version. Wittner I've heard good things
about. I think they are usually not really necessary compared to well-made friction pegs, but it also depends on your local climate etc.
| Quote: |
- quality of build and attention to details: my Zeryab sounds like what I was expecting and feels good around the neck, so I am currently satisfied
by this purchase and am overall glad I bought it. I went for this model based on my friend's recommendations (he works for a famous shop in europe,
they sell a lot of middle-eastern instruments year round, and often are visited by professional performers, who all say that model in particular is a
notch above its price range) So, again, I like this oud and have no regrets. This said, as someone used to buying guitars and hand drums, I have to
admit that the "finish" quality is definitely not what a guitar owner would expect from a 800 USD instrument. In guitar terms, I'd say this looks like
a 200-300 USD range guitars from mexico or Indonesia. It also doesn't look "new", and if I tried to sell it as such in Japan around its tag price,
literally nobody would believe it's new (lol) Now, from buying multiple drums from the middle-east, I know it seems to be a typical issue, since
literally all my drums came in looking "used", and decorative parts often look B-grade. (sorry if I'm offending anyone's culture, that is not at all
my goal, but simple observation as an international customer)
I'm rationalizing this phenomenon by assuming that there must be a big gap between buying-locally-as-a-native quality Versus
buying-abroad-as-a-foreign-customer. I get it.
This is just my observation, but if I had to put a price tag on this oud, I'd say "this can't be more than 400 dollars", which is probably what the
shop owner pays as a wholesaler.
For 800 dollars, I'd expect the craft team to at least remove wood chips from inside the body, and at least some proper filing/polishing around the
peg holes, some of which were chipped off at the tip. But again, it sounds great, the neck feels good, so I'm satisfied.
My question is, how much does one have to invest to reach the next level of quality when purchasing a second oud?
I'm in no hurry of course, but I have always enjoyed taking my time saving up money to buy nice tools that make me happy. And when I buy a "better"
oud, I'd like to avoid this price/build quality gap.
|
It's tough to say. The luthiers that I know and consider high quality like you are asking about are in the $2000-5000 range.
It's possible to get great ouds for much less, and worse ouds for more of course.
Zeryab ouds are mostly pretty good, ranging from decent beginner to serious student to semi-professional or low end professional instruments. I'm
not sure which model you got or how good an example yours is of that model (factory ouds tend to have fairly wide tolerances for variation in sound
and quality).
My advice would be to play the oud you have for a few years, develop your technique and listening habits so that you have a good sense of the sound
and style that you want. By then you will have developed more connections in this world and will be better positioned to evaluate and purchase a
professional grade instrument.
| Quote: |
Is it possible to reach that kind of craftsmanship quality from abroad, or is it a must to go visit a local builder and select something there?
Because as far as I know, that's not going to be possible in Japan, as the only shops I've found are vastly overpriced and full of instruments from 10
years ago that didn't sell (because overpriced). I also can't imagine myself visiting Syria or Turkey anytime soon.
I was wondering how you good people go around buying your "better" ouds.
|
For Arabic ouds, the best luthiers I know of at the moment are John Vergara in NY and Peter Sayegh in Israel/Palestine. They produce work that has
the attention to detail that you are used to seeing with guitars etc. There are some others I'm keeping an eye on but not 100% on just yet. There
are some others who produce great instruments, like Mahmoud Mustafa in Egypt, Khalid Belhaiba in Morocco, Maurice Shehata in Egypt. When I started
playing the oud, most Arabic ouds seemed to be low to moderate quality factory instruments and there were only a handful of serious luthiers of any
real skill. I believe we are entering a bit of a renaissance of Arabic oud making and am encouraged by the many young luthiers I see doing good
work. I fully expect to see many more options for good ouds in the next few years.
For Turkish ouds, there are more options, and Faruk Turunz, Cengiz Sarikus, Yildirim Palabiyik, Mustafa Copcuoglu, Viken Najarian and others are
making excellent. instruments.
| Quote: |
- strings. the Aquila (recommended by the shop) sound good to me, but is there any brand you'd recommend I try next? I'm a bit worried about not
being able to shop internationally if the covid situation gets worse, so I'm thinking I should get a few more strings pack while I can do so
easily.
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Aquila are good strings, they have the red sets and the supernylgut sets. Not sure which version you tried. Pyramid orange are pretty good strings,
not better than Aquila but a bit different. If the Aquila seem ok on your instrument, I would stick with that for a while. Since ouds have no frets,
the strings usually last a long time, you probably don't need to change the strings more than 2-3 times per year.
| Quote: |
- how to get into middle-eastern melodies when you come from a mostly white, western musical culture? Should I just check out random famous oud
players on youtube, or is there a wiser way to get used to the microtonal melodies?
|
Most middle eastern music is vocal, not instrumental. Listening to oud players is great, but you will develop more if you listen to singers as well.
Learning by ear is important, you need to learn to differentiate the complex ornamentation from the basic melody. Figuring this out by ear is part of
how you learn to add your own ornamentation.
Like a language, the best way to learn is immersion and imitation. Listen a lot, and try to copy what you hear. Listen back and adjust. Rinse &
repeat.
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Amon
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 8-25-2021
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jason | High end ouds are still quite affordable, relatively speaking, in terms of acoustic instruments. You can find high quality instruments in the
$1500-3000 USD range. Anything over that amount is typically highly ornate or an older instrument from a highly desirable luthier, namely the Nahat
family.
I haven't experienced ME luthiers who will outright ignore messages in English but there are a number of builders who don't speak English at all. If
there's a builder you're interested in there are always plenty of people who will help translate. Glad to hear you're enjoying the instrument!
|
thank you
Yes, I agree, most of my musician friends in the classic or even Jazz field have had to buy their instruments by taking car-level loans. ugh.
Anything up to around 2K for boutique made is definitely reasonable. I used to collect handmade wooden skilltoys from Japan, as soon as you start
counting skilled labor by the hour, it skyrockets pretty quickly.
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Amon
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 8-25-2021
Member Is Offline
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@Brian Prunka,
thanks a lot for the elaborate response. I'm gonna read that a couple dozen times and unpack all the info before quoting quotes lol
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majnuunNavid
Oud Junkie
Posts: 622
Registered: 7-22-2013
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dude, where's my Oud?
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Happy to see another Oudi in Japan. Saying hello from Kansai.
Those basic Zeryab's don't look great, but sound decent for the price. They do not meet expectations for the price you pay in terms of appearance and
attention to detail. But they should be build more or less soundly, just rough around the edges. Not much care goes into building them.
I have one too, it's just my backup Oud for roughing it. I had to sand the nut down, as it was made too high.
Next level Oud would be $1000-$2000 range. Lots of variation there too.
For middle eastern melodies, all you need is to use your voice. it's monkey see, monkey do. AKA Ear training, but not quite the same as ear training
in Western music. Listen and copy the melodies you hear. If you can sing it, you can play it.
Get exposed to simple songs in different maqams, get them stuck in your head until you can sing them in the shower. I have some free ear training
tutorials on YouTube, and there is another teacher there Sami Abu Shumays who also has a bunch of ear training youtube videos.
Youtube is a good way to go, just try and stay away from what I call the "piano-playing Oud players", the guys who have a lot of flashy technique,
play a lot of arpeggios, but not a lot of depth in their playing.
Simon Shaheen
Ahmad al Khatib
Nizar Rohana
Said Chraibi
Munir Bashir
Nasser Houari
Omar Metioui
Charbel Rohana
These are all good names to start with for Arabic style.
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Amon
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 8-25-2021
Member Is Offline
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| Quote: Originally posted by majnuunNavid | Happy to see another Oudi in Japan. Saying hello from Kansai.
Those basic Zeryab's don't look great, but sound decent for the price. They do not meet expectations for the price you pay in terms of appearance and
attention to detail. But they should be build more or less soundly, just rough around the edges. Not much care goes into building them.
I have one too, it's just my backup Oud for roughing it. I had to sand the nut down, as it was made too high.
Next level Oud would be $1000-$2000 range. Lots of variation there too.
For middle eastern melodies, all you need is to use your voice. it's monkey see, monkey do. AKA Ear training, but not quite the same as ear training
in Western music. Listen and copy the melodies you hear. If you can sing it, you can play it.
Get exposed to simple songs in different maqams, get them stuck in your head until you can sing them in the shower. I have some free ear training
tutorials on YouTube, and there is another teacher there Sami Abu Shumays who also has a bunch of ear training youtube videos.
Youtube is a good way to go, just try and stay away from what I call the "piano-playing Oud players", the guys who have a lot of flashy technique,
play a lot of arpeggios, but not a lot of depth in their playing.
Simon Shaheen
Ahmad al Khatib
Nizar Rohana
Said Chraibi
Munir Bashir
Nasser Houari
Omar Metioui
Charbel Rohana
These are all good names to start with for Arabic style. |
hi! thank you for chiming in! Great advice, thank you! The hilarious thing is that i've been doing that burning-sung-melodies-into-my-brain
approach, but at the moment I seem to be stuck on geisha music LOL I was trying to play some Japanese riffs, ended up stuck on okinawan melodies,
tried some songs from a Japanese lady called Umekichi, and now it's taken roots like hindu chants. I'm super happy that the oud seems to be quite
compatible with shamisen music but I definitely need to switch to some actual arabic sounding stuff lol
My Zeryab overall is pretty nice. It sounds and feel good as a first oud, but yeah, not sure the price mark is okay. I won't mind selling a couple
guitars to buy a better one down the line.
if you ever travel East to Tokyo, do buzz me please
and please be safe over there too.
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