AK21
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Which choice would you recommend
Hello, I'm a beginner, as in I have only 3 months of experience of oud playing. I'm buying an oud right now and I would love your advice about these
choices:
1. https://www.ethnicmusical.com/shop/arabic-oud-double-walnut/
2. https://www.ethnicmusical.com/shop/shami-oud-by-zeryab-cedar-top/
3. https://salamuzik.com/collections/arabic-oud/products/arabic-handmad...
4. https://www.ethnicmusical.com/shop/egyptian-oud-royal-palm/
5. https://www.ethnicmusical.com/shop/shami-oud-walnut-wood/
Do you guys think the Zeryab (link 2) is worth the extra price? Also these are the only worthwhile looking options in my budget that ship to Canada. I
would love your help, Thank you!
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Brian Prunka
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That particular Zeryab model is okay, some are better than others, but on the whole I don't think it's better than the other options. It may have
better resale value since Zeryab is a well-known name at this point. EthnicMusical has a slightly different model, same price, that I've found
tends to be better: https://www.ethnicmusical.com/shop/shami-oud-by-zeryab-classic/?wpam...
The others all seem fine. I was pleasantly surprised by the Egyptian one, very sweet sound. I think the palm rosettes are hideous personally, but the
oud sounds nice in the video. Ouds with oval sound holes don't usually have rosettes anyway, if it were me I'd take them out. The others seem
comparable and decent for this price point. The Sala one sounds good, pretty solid sound. If it were me I'd probably choose between those two.
The Egyptian one mentions a deep bowl, 20cm. That's not bad (same as my Peter Sayegh oud, actually), but for some it might be a little uncomfortable.
The "Shami Oud Walnut Wood" has a 61.5cm scale, which is more old-school but personally I find a bit large, I prefer 60cm so I'd probably not get
that one unless I was planning on using a lower tuning.
The one thing about videos is it's really impossible to tell how well the oud actually projects. Many ouds can sound okay with a good mic etc. but in
a room the sound is weak. Also the people demonstrating these have wildly varying levels of skill so that makes a difference in assessing the sound.
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coolsciguy
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For that price range, I'd avoid anything with a spruce top. Cedar is a much safer choice when you buy online.
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Jody Stecher
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Why do you distrust online spruce?
I would avoid almost anything with a cedar top at any price. An instrument with a cedar top will typically not improve with age. I have heard a few
cedar topped ouds I like. But mostly no. The wave form is different from that produced by spruce. The ear perceives the spruce sound as concentrated
and "punchy", by which I mean the maximum amplitude of the wave occurs moments after the attack. The sound swells. The typical cedar sound is diffuse
by comparison. Maximum amplitude is nearly immediate. There are exceptions.
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coolsciguy
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Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher  |
Why do you distrust online spruce?
I would avoid almost anything with a cedar top at any price. An instrument with a cedar top will typically not improve with age. I have heard a few
cedar topped ouds I like. But mostly no. The wave form is different from that produced by spruce. The ear perceives the spruce sound as concentrated
and "punchy", by which I mean the maximum amplitude of the wave occurs moments after the attack. The sound swells. The typical cedar sound is diffuse
by comparison. Maximum amplitude is nearly immediate. There are exceptions. |
I suggested avoiding spruce top ouds at this price range (~$500) as it's hard to find a good quality one. The one I had was cheaply made and the top
was caved. In comparison, the ones listed with cedar top appear to have better builds (Zeryab has a pretty strong build). I do agree with your points,
as a matter of fact I am awaiting an instrument from a luthier that wouldn't do anything but spruce.
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Brian Prunka
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The question of spruce vs. cedar in this price range is a valid one.
The issue with spruce in low priced instruments isn't exactly with the quality of the wood per se, but that it may not be properly cured/seasoned,
which will lead to irreparable structural problems in the long run.
However, the Turkish luthiers who make most of these instruments (except the Zeryab and the Egyptian one) are pretty diligent in my experience with
the quality of the wood. The issues with green wood in my experience have been cheaper Syrian and Egyptian ouds. I think Egyptian ouds are often a
different species, Swedish Pine I've been told.
There is a general question of robust build vs. robust sound, and unfortunately the biggest/best sounds tend to come from lighter builds (which
requires quality materials and lots of skill).
I tend to have a similar viewpoint as Jody about the "cedar" used in most instruments — other than true Lebanon cedar, which is rarely
available these days but the old growth trees formerly provided prized tonewood used in some antique instruments. It is a relatively slow-growing
tree (25-38 cm per year), compared to Sitka Spruce (~150cm/yr) and even Engelmann Spruce (relatively slow growing at ~60cm/year). The "Cedar"
commonly found in musical instruments is not actually cedar but a kind of cypress (Western Red Cedar, grows about 60-90cm per year).
Apparently Turkey has been planting Lebanon cedar but it takes a long time to grow and I suspect that it is not what is being used in these
instruments.
So it's a tradeoff that's worth considering — spruce might be a little risker long term but will likely sound better. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by coolsciguy |
I suggested avoiding spruce top ouds at this price range (~$500) as it's hard to find a good quality one. The one I had was cheaply made and the top
was caved. In comparison, the ones listed with cedar top appear to have better builds (Zeryab has a pretty strong build). I do agree with your points,
as a matter of fact I am awaiting an instrument from a luthier that wouldn't do anything but spruce.
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If I recall correctly — you actually got one of these "Master Ahmet" ouds from Sala, right? Disappointing to hear that it was poor quality.
I've had a few students get ouds from Sala and I've generally been impressed with the quality for the price. However—they were all a little
higher price range than this, more in the 600-800 range. I assumed that the basic quality would still be there in the lower range ouds.
Personally, I had a spruce Syrian oud that sounded great for 2 years and then fell apart because the wood wasn't seasoned properly, so this is
definitely a real concern. It was a great sounding oud while it lasted, though! I'm playing it in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUJVrrLpbhs
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coolsciguy
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka |
If I recall correctly — you actually got one of these "Master Ahmet" ouds from Sala, right? Disappointing to hear that it was poor quality.
I've had a few students get ouds from Sala and I've generally been impressed with the quality for the price. However—they were all a little
higher price range than this, more in the 600-800 range. I assumed that the basic quality would still be there in the lower range ouds.
Personally, I had a spruce Syrian oud that sounded great for 2 years and then fell apart because the wood wasn't seasoned properly, so this is
definitely a real concern. It was a great sounding oud while it lasted, though! I'm playing it in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUJVrrLpbhs
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Great memory, Brian! Not Sala but another similar vendor. My "Master Ahmet" oud looked pretty when arrived, but it degraded rather fast, varnish
disappeared, soundboard caved and I was never able to get a good sound out of it (mind you I was new to the instrument and didn't have access to in
person classes/other oudies). It had Arabic bracing but didn't sound Arabic.
The Zeryab I got from Mike immediately sounded alright to mu ears, and improved with a new set of strings. Though admittedly, my Zeryab is a class
higher in terms of price. This is why I suggested going with cedar top ouds for that price range.
Unfortunately in many cases the factory/luthier is unknown with student ouds which doesn't sit well with me anymore. If I were to redo my steps I'd
try to get an oud from a luthier (or one from an online vendor where the luthier is known).
Btw, nice playing in the video! Thanks for sharing!
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Jason
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Is that a Sukar? I ask because the same thing happened to my Sukar. The top basically fell apart in several places all at once. The neck joint also
failed but that's an easy fix.
I kept it in the same environment as all my other instruments so I don't think it was a humidity/temperature issue. Disappointing, as it sounded
really good for several years. One of these days I might try to get a new top put on although I'm sure that would change the sound.
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jason |
Is that a Sukar? I ask because the same thing happened to my Sukar. The top basically fell apart in several places all at once. The neck joint also
failed but that's an easy fix.
I kept it in the same environment as all my other instruments so I don't think it was a humidity/temperature issue. Disappointing, as it sounded
really good for several years. One of these days I might try to get a new top put on although I'm sure that would change the sound.
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I'm not actually sure. I thought it was when I got it, but it may be a Zeryab. It had no label in it when I got it, which is common for Syrian ouds
that pass through Israel (doing business with Syrians is generally illegal in Israel, though I believe it may be possible to get special permits for
certain things). It's hard to say. Zeryab and Sukar are both in Jordan now I believe, which simplifies things greatly.
I thought about getting a new top but the cost would be like buying a new oud.
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Jody Stecher
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Brian, ok, so Spruce in a low price oud might be unseasoned. How does that make cedar in a low priced oud a safer bet?
Re the video with the SMO (Syrian Mystery Oud), Marandi H sure is sounding good on violin.
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naf
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I have the same zeryab Oud as the one listed in your choices
 20200101_072731 by Priapus_D, on Flickr
it is a standard entry level oud, it sounds very nice, but the the volume is not very high. for a starter I would recommend it.
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coolsciguy
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | The question of spruce vs. cedar in this price range is a valid one.
The issue with spruce in low priced instruments isn't exactly with the quality of the wood per se, but that it may not be properly cured/seasoned,
which will lead to irreparable structural problems in the long run.
However, the Turkish luthiers who make most of these instruments (except the Zeryab and the Egyptian one) are pretty diligent in my experience with
the quality of the wood. The issues with green wood in my experience have been cheaper Syrian and Egyptian ouds. I think Egyptian ouds are often a
different species, Swedish Pine I've been told.
There is a general question of robust build vs. robust sound, and unfortunately the biggest/best sounds tend to come from lighter builds (which
requires quality materials and lots of skill).
I tend to have a similar viewpoint as Jody about the "cedar" used in most instruments — other than true Lebanon cedar, which is rarely
available these days but the old growth trees formerly provided prized tonewood used in some antique instruments. It is a relatively slow-growing
tree (25-38 cm per year), compared to Sitka Spruce (~150cm/yr) and even Engelmann Spruce (relatively slow growing at ~60cm/year). The "Cedar"
commonly found in musical instruments is not actually cedar but a kind of cypress (Western Red Cedar, grows about 60-90cm per year).
Apparently Turkey has been planting Lebanon cedar but it takes a long time to grow and I suspect that it is not what is being used in these
instruments.
So it's a tradeoff that's worth considering — spruce might be a little risker long term but will likely sound better. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Hi Brian,
Amazing stuff. This makes me wonder of one has to have a detailed talk with their luthier on exact species of cedar/spruce used on instruments.
Usually they say something like grade +++ Canadian or German spruce which doesn't tell you much.
Did you happen to ask Peter Sayegh what he uses on his ouds?
cheers!
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