naf
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A Question about repeats in a Samai Score
Dear fellow members,
I was digitizing a score for a Samai piece composed by Abdulrahman Jabaqji, Kindly find attached the score I am talking about. I couldn't understand
the repeats in it. He was using Segno signs repetitively and also adding numbers at the beginning of the stave lines. I would be greatly obliged if
some one could help me untangle the repeats to make the score playable on musescore.
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Jody Stecher
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At the start of the first measure of the samai there is a missing repeat sign. If that is added Musescore will probably repeat the first khana on
playback. The numbers at the start of each line are indicating which measure it is. So line 2 begins with the third measure, the bottom line starts
with measure 21 etc. The Segno signs indicate that the Taslim (measures 5 through 8) are to be repeated after each khana is played ( the typical samai
formula). Musescore should understand that. Musescore is temperamental. I use it myself, but sometimes the playback is stubborn. If Musescore won't
play back a correctly notated piece of music I exit the program and then open it again and sometimes it plays perfectly.
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Brian Prunka
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There are a number of issues with this score that should be corrected. How this impacts playback in the computer program I do not know.
The "missing" repeat at the beginning is actually a standard convention, I would not include a starting repeat in the first measure. It's redundant,
a repeat to the beginning needs no marker for the beginning. This is standard and I would hope that the program would 'understand' it.
The conventional use of segno signs in sheet music does not match the way it is usually used in sama'i scores.
Sama'i usage: Both the Taslim and the instruction to repeat to the Taslim are marked with a Segno. This depends on 2 things: 1) The reader knows that
the first segno is the marker and the later segnos are instructions to return to the marker 2) the reader knows the basic form of a sama'i and knows
that after the Taslim one is to proceed to the next khana. Neither of these things is standard in music notation, so there is no way the computer
playback mechanism will easily recognize them.
Conventional: A segno marks to point to which you repeat, and a "D.S." marks the instruction to return to the segno. Then one continues from the
segno. To skip back to another section after the segno, you would need to have written "D.S. al Khana 3" and "D.S. al Khana 4." Khana 4 would have
"D.S. al Fine." And a Fine would mark the end. This is likely the only readily available way to get MuseScore to play back correctly, and will take
some tinkering to get the skips to be correct.
In my personal opinion, if this is for students of Arabic music, then it's not a big deal to do it the "Arabic" way, but you will have a harder time
getting it to play back correctly than if you do it the "correct" way.
There are a few beaming issues.
The most important is that M.3 is beamed incorrectly, you have two groups of 6 notes. The first 6 notes should be beamed as a group of 4 notes and a
group of 2 notes (a group of 6 notes would be okay too but only if you followed that approach throughout). Beats 4-5 should be grouped as 4 notes.
The areas where have triplets should really be beamed together, though this will necessitate breaking the secondary beam of the attached 16th note.
I'm attaching a segment of Jabaqji's Sama'i Zanjouran that shows what I'm talking about. You can skip this, but it makes the piece slightly more
difficult to read.
Omit the key signature change. This kind of brief modulation is much, much clearer to notate with accidentals. You are literally introducing a key
change because of a single note (the E natural in m. 10). Keep the 2 flats key signature and just mark any changes with accidentals here.
A few things I would recommend for all scores;
1- Make the segno sign much bigger. This is a big signpost and you want it very visible.
2- Add "wings" to all repeat signs. This makes them stand out much more visibly and people are less likely to miss them. In a super predictable
style like Sama'i, it's not too important but other music it's highly advisable.
3- Mark sections. In a sama'i that means writing in text "Khana 1" "Taslim" etc. In other music this would be section/rehearsal marks like "A" "B"
"C". I see you do have the small circles with "2" "3" etc. I'd suggest using the full "Khana 2" here and making it quite a bit bigger, and also
marking the first khana and taslim this way. Rehearsal marks like this should be in square or rectangular enclosures normally, these circles are odd.
I'm attaching a version of your score with the changes highlighted and a part of a score I did that shows a couple of the things I was talking
about.
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Brian Prunka
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Jody Stecher
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I was under the impression that Musescore would not repeat an opening phrase if the repeat sign was not at both ends. I just tested it. I was
mistaken. It will.
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Doc139
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Can anyone tell me what this program musescore can do? It can play the music that you have in written form as music sheet?
Alexander
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naf
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Thanks guys for your informative replies.
regarding the repeats:
| Quote: |
Conventional: A segno marks to point to which you repeat, and a "D.S." marks the instruction to return to the segno. Then one continues from the
segno. To skip back to another section after the segno, you would need to have written "D.S. al Khana 3" and "D.S. al Khana 4." Khana 4 would have
"D.S. al Fine." And a Fine would mark the end. This is likely the only readily available way to get MuseScore to play back correctly, and will take
some tinkering to get the skips to be correct.
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from what I understood from Brian the piece should go like this:
first kahana-Taslim
2nd kahana-Taslim
3rd kahana-Taslim
4th kahana Taslim
or AB CB DB EB
Is my understanding correct?
If I am correct, then I need Codas as well as Segnos in the score, or rewrite the taslim after each Khana to get rid of abbreviated navigation and
segno marks.
| Quote: |
In my personal opinion, if this is for students of Arabic music, then it's not a big deal to do it the "Arabic" way, but you will have a harder time
getting it to play back correctly than if you do it the "correct" way.
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Unfortunately it is not intended for students, it is intended for machine automatic playing, so I need to be very precise and clear so the program can
make a good representation of it.
What I do is trying to emulate musescore. The score is turned into a string based on abc notation or xml file, then a JavaScript library, takes that
text, and create from it a graph for the score in SVG format, and another scripts produces audio from the text, by matching the duration and pitch of
each note with a sound file (sound font) that holds a recording of that pitch.
| Quote: |
The most important is that M.3 is beamed incorrectly, you have two groups of 6 notes. The first 6 notes should be beamed as a group of 4 notes and a
group of 2 notes (a group of 6 notes would be okay too but only if you followed that approach throughout). Beats 4-5 should be grouped as 4 notes.
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Regarding the beaming, I think your remark is in its place. In the beginning of the piece, I believe he was trying to follow the Samai Thaqil (Heavy
Smai) rhythm 10/8 meter.
D - - t - D D t - -
(1 1/2), 1. (1/2), (1/2), (1 1/2)
In the last Khana, he changes the meter to 6/8, and I still did not find corresponding rhythm that goes with that meter. Though Maqm World has an entry for this meter under Iqa‘ Yuruk Semai:
D t t D t -
I guess it is this rhythm.
I will make the beaming correspond with the rhythm, and I will take all your kind remarks into consideration. Thank you, you really made it become
clear to me.
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naf
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Hello Doc
Quote: Originally posted by Doc139  | Can anyone tell me what this program musescore can do? It can play the music that you have in written form as music sheet?
Alexander
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Yes, it plays music sheets and scores and allows you to write them as well.
MuseScore is a scorewriter for Windows, macOS, and Linux supporting a wide variety of file formats and input methods. It is released as free and
open-source software under the GNU General Public License. MuseScore is accompanied by a freemium mobile score viewer and playback app, and an online
score sharing platform.
here is an example of how a score is played on their score sharing platform:
My Memories
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naf
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Here is a draft of the adjusted score, I hope I did not make a lot of mistakes in the beaming. Later I will attach the auto generated audio file once
I find a way to share it with the forum.
Concerning measure 3 putting all the notes of the first dom beat on one beam gives a very complicated and hard to read shape, so I beamed them on 1/2
notes.
Now concerning the sixiolettes, like the ones present, in measure 1, 2 and 11. I could do them as beamed triolettes, as seen in M1 and 2, or as
sixiolettes like
in measure 11. Which approach is considered better?
Finally, a question about measure 6, the rhythm is: 1 1/2 dom, 1 tak, 1/2 dom 1/2 dom, and 1 1/2 tak, he sometimes unites the final two doms together,
like what is seen in this measure by a double-croche, croche, and then a double croche. (1/4), (1/2), (1/4). For consistency, should I beam those two
doms together through out the score?
Attachment: samai_kurd.pdf (52kB)
This file has been downloaded 70 times
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Brian Prunka
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Hey Naf, there's a lot going on here.
| Quote: |
If I am correct, then I need Codas as well as Segnos in the score, or rewrite the taslim after each Khana to get rid of abbreviated navigation and
segno marks.
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You don't need to write codas necessarily for reading — you can write D.S. al Khana 3, D.S. al Khana 4, etc. But you're right that rewriting the
taslim is the surest way to get the program to play it correctly.
If your goal is to get a program to play this back, then including all the taslims separately like this is good, but if it was for a musician to
read, I'd prefer to see it the other way. But writing everything out is never "wrong" so what you have here is fine.
| Quote: Originally posted by naf |
Concerning measure 3 putting all the notes of the first dom beat on one beam gives a very complicated and hard to read shape, so I beamed them on 1/2
notes. |
While it might seem complicated at first, beaming these all together doesn't look really look complicated and isn't hard to read. The way you have
it is much harder to read because you break up the beats into many separate groups.
They should be beamed all together, or the first 4 notes should be beamed together as a group and the last 2 as another group.
The problem was that samai' should be (in quavers) 3+2+2+3 (or 2+1+2+2+2+1). But before you had it beamed 2+3+2+3, which is wrong no matter what.
Now you have it 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+3, which is not as wrong but is hard to read and obscures the iqa.
| Quote: |
Now concerning the sixiolettes, like the ones present, in measure 1, 2 and 11. I could do them as beamed triolettes, as seen in M1 and 2, or as
sixiolettes like
in measure 11. Which approach is considered better? |
Personally I prefer to see the 3's here, but either way is fine as long as you are consistent.
| Quote: |
Finally, a question about measure 6, the rhythm is: 1 1/2 dom, 1 tak, 1/2 dom 1/2 dom, and 1 1/2 tak, he sometimes unites the final two doms together,
like what is seen in this measure by a double-croche, croche, and then a double croche. (1/4), (1/2), (1/4). For consistency, should I beam those two
doms together through out the score?
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The short answer is that those two doums should always be grouped together.
Here is the simple way to think about it:
In Sama'i thaqil 10/8, you should always have 1+2 beamed together, 4+5 beamed together and 6+7 beamed togrether. You can really think of the meter
like 4 measures: 3/8 2/8 2/8 3/8 and beam like that.
It is optional how to beam beats 3 and 10. They are either independent or they are beamed to the previous group. Either way is fine, but whichever
you choose should be the same throughout the piece though. This is the way 3/8 is traditionally treated - either all 3 beats or 2+1.
So either:
1+2, 3, 4+5, 6+7, 8+9, 10
or
1+2+3, 4+5, 6+7, 8+9+10
Hopefully this makes sense the way I'm explaining it.
In 6/8, beaming should be 1+2+3, 4+5+6.
You could do 1+2, 3, 4+5, 6 but this is not typical.
Of course, if this is just for playback, none of this matters — this is just for readability for musicians. But based on the link you provided it
seems like it's partly both, so I would try to get the beaming right.
| Quote: |
here is an example of how a score is played on their score sharing platform:
My Memories |
Nice work, but there seem to be a couple of mistakes. I hope you don't mind feedback here.
M.7 should be E natural, not E flat
M.16 should be B flat, not B natural
M.22 should look like m. 23: generally, outside of handwritten parts, these bar repeat signs should be avoided for melodic material—the computer can
write the notes easily enough, there is no need for a shortcut.
The fast section before the D.C. is missing the last bar (Eb D C Bb Ab G F Eb), and the D.C. should be above the staff. Rather than a segno there,
you should write "D.S., then D.C."
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Brian Prunka
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since my explanations might have been confusing, here is a marked up version of your score hopefully clarifying where the beaming should be. I only
did the taslim the first time, the rest should be similar.
I used the 1+2, 3, 4+5, 6+7, 8+9, 10 system. This is the most common and 'safest' way to traditionally beam a sama'i.
Attachment: samai_kurd2.pdf (132kB)
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naf
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Dear Brian, what you say makes perfect sense. I love your feedback. You are a great teacher, your students are lucky to learn from you. Thanks a
lot.
I will stick with 3+2+2+3 beaming for 10/8 and , use triolettes, and fix the minor typos.
To be honest, no one explained for me those oriental rhythms and forms better than you Thanks for pointing out the mistakes in the Zekraiaty score.
You are very helpful and kind.
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naf
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Here is the score after amending it according to Brian's notes.
Attachment: samai_kurd_final.pdf (53kB)
This file has been downloaded 73 times
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Brian Prunka
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This is great. Huge improvement, this version is much clearer and very readable.
You don't have to change anything, but for future reference, when the rhythms in 6/8 get a little more complicated like in m.29 it's perfectly fine
to break a beam like you had it before.
The rhythm in mm.28, 30 and 32 is likewise fine as is, but would be slightly clearer if you broke the secondary beam.
The two general ideas for making charts rhythmically clear are:
1- make the beats clear
2- avoid notation that could be confused for something else
While the notation you have in m.28 is common and experienced musicians are unlikely to be confused by it, the grouping of three 16ths could be
mistaken for a triplet, and it obscures the subdivision of the beat (looks like 3+3 instead of 2+2+2).
Since you actually do have 16th note triplets in this section, you might consider modifying that, but it's not strictly necessary.
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