kampanas
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Chromatic/'in-between' notes in taksim playing
Hi Guys,
I was wondering if someone could explain to me how players pick notes that are chromatic/not in the makam when improvising. I've noticed a lot of
greek and turkish players do this, especially in greek bouzouki taximi, but I can never work out what guides the decision making. I can tell these
notes are usually not modulations but sort of 'in-between notes - perhaps I've simply misunderstood. I'd love to learn how to do this, I think it
gives improvisations such a unique flavour.
All the best,
Nick
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Jody Stecher
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I know what you mean (though I wouldn't use the word "chromatic" ) and I agree that it adds flavor and atmosphere. One answer to your question is that
one learns how and when to do this by breathing the atmosphere of the musical genre for a few years. Just listen and listen and listen and after a
while certain phrases will reverberate in your mind. And then you've got it. Music theory of maqam music and Greek music is After The Fact. It tries
to describe and systematize what already exists. Not-so-long ago the music existed amongst musicians who did not know theory but they knew how to
sing and play authentically. In more recent years the theory became prescriptive (i.e. "this is what should be done") and when taken literally or out
of context it can seem that good musicians might be breaking the rules when actually they are Doing It The Way It Is Done.
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Jason
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Jody nailed it. I don't think those players are really thinking of which notes to insert, it's just part of the musical language. The best way to
learn it is by transcribing the pieces you enjoy.
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ArmoOudist
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The more I study Armenian/Greek/Turkish music the more I understand Jody's point.
If I'm wrong about any of this, someone can correct me, but quartertones in the Arab world eventually became very systematized. Example: This is
Bayati, you must play this note half flat
This was never the case in the Ottoman World, PARTICULARLY amongst the Greeks and Armenians.
It's a mistake to view Armenian/Greek quarter tones in the same way as the Arabs. The latter use them in a much more established way, the former use
them as little embellishments and flourishes in order to spice up the notes. Think of the way certain jazz and blues players "bend" notes to put a
little soul in them.
Here are two vocal examples, one Greek, the other Armenian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGfg-lCIZbA
Listen to her voice here, the little embellishments at the end of the phrases have some notes that aren't exactly "in tune" in Western terms. She's
not consciously going in her head (alright, gotta hit that B Quarter flat), she's just sort of singing what "feels right".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwCiihvudsQ
This second song by Onnik Dinkjian uses a lot of bending. Again, it's subtle. The use of quarter tones is not obvious, but you can tell that something
is a little "off kilter."
I hope that clarifies.
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Jody Stecher
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Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist  | The more I study Armenian/Greek/Turkish music the more I understand Jody's point.
If I'm wrong about any of this, someone can correct me, but quartertones in the Arab world eventually became very systematized.
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The operative word is "eventually" but fortunately this is not universal in the large and varied world of Arabic music. And even where it is
apparently systematized on paper there are so many regional and personal variations.
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Jody Stecher
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| Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist |
Here are two vocal examples, one Greek, the other Armenian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGfg-lCIZbA
Listen to her voice here, the little embellishments at the end of the phrases have some notes that aren't exactly "in tune" in Western terms.
She's not consciously going in her head (alright, gotta hit that B Quarter flat), she's just sort of singing what "feels right".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwCiihvudsQ
This second song by Onnik Dinkjian uses a lot of bending. Again, it's subtle. The use of quarter tones is not obvious, but you can tell that something
is a little "off kilter."
I hope that clarifies.
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I enjoyed both clips a lot. But I don't entirely agree with your analysis. In the Greek clip I hear a singer who is aware of modal intonation. Her
song is in a mode similar to Arabic Bayati in its first jins,and she is consistent in her singing the pitch *sika/segah* at the microtonal spot that
is used in this variety of Greek music. When the song goes to the lower octave she sings the sixth degree (if we deviate from maqam theory and speak
of a 7 note scale for a moment) again with exact microtonal intonation. But this is not an ornament nor is it spontaneous. This is a melody note. This
is how the song goes. Of course it's done "naturally" and without premeditation but I do think it is done with awareness. I hear no embellishments at
the end of phrases. Can you give an example (in minutes and seconds?.) I may have misunderstood what you mean.
In the Armenian clip, yes there is a lot of tiny microtonal embellishment. Given that there are so very many named divisions to the octave in the
Armenian and Ottoman music I wouldn't be surprised if all the musicians and singers knew the names of every pitch. But that does not mean they are
thinking of that when they sing and play. They are making the music The Way It Goes.
What I mostly disagree with is the description of perfectly In Tune music as being off kilter, even when making that assessment as a positive
attribute. Using the pitch standard of the European conservatory doesn't make sense to me for this music. For the past 2 centuries so much of
European "art music" has been off kilter and out of tune according to ITS OWN previous standards.
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Brian Prunka
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| Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist | The more I study Armenian/Greek/Turkish music the more I understand Jody's point.
If I'm wrong about any of this, someone can correct me, but quartertones in the Arab world eventually became very systematized. Example: This is
Bayati, you must play this note half flat
This was never the case in the Ottoman World, PARTICULARLY amongst the Greeks and Armenians.
It's a mistake to view Armenian/Greek quarter tones in the same way as the Arabs. The latter use them in a much more established way, the former use
them as little embellishments and flourishes in order to spice up the notes. Think of the way certain jazz and blues players "bend" notes to put a
little soul in them.
Here are two vocal examples, one Greek, the other Armenian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGfg-lCIZbA
Listen to her voice here, the little embellishments at the end of the phrases have some notes that aren't exactly "in tune" in Western terms. She's
not consciously going in her head (alright, gotta hit that B Quarter flat), she's just sort of singing what "feels right".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwCiihvudsQ
This second song by Onnik Dinkjian uses a lot of bending. Again, it's subtle. The use of quarter tones is not obvious, but you can tell that something
is a little "off kilter."
I hope that clarifies.
|
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, as I love your enthusiasm, but it seems to me that you are a bit confused on multiple fronts.
First, the examples you list don't exactly support your thesis — both of these are very clear and obvious bayati/ussak makams, with precise and
clear microtones (or in the female singer's case, as precise as anything else she sang). The Dinkjian one is not really any less specific, precise,
or "systematized" than one would expect in Arabic music (though the precise intonation and ornamentation of the 'quarter tones' are slightly
different). Listen back to these recordings a bit more closely.
Second, you seem to be conflating whether someone "knows" what they are doing in a theoretical sense with the idea of musical intention and precision.
They have nothing necessarily to do with one another, which is (I think) part of what Jody was getting at. Traditional musicians were usually very
precise in their intentions and execution, even if they didn't have names or mental constructs for things other than "this kind of sound" and "this
other kind of sound." Whether a musician 'knows' or thinks "this is a segah note" or "this is E half flat" or "this is Si 4 komas flat" or whatever
has absolutely nothing to do with how intentional or precise they are being. Regardless of the influence of abstract or
conceptual/theoretical frameworks or vocabulary, a musician can still be extremely careful and specific about what they are doing, just by
ear. Indeed, the whole aim of being a musician is to cultivate one's ear, imagination, and skills so that "what feels right" is precisely what one
intends and what comes out, without having to rely on thought or concepts. This is a really, really important point, so apologies if I'm belaboring it
a bit.
Third, Ottoman music was very standardized and precise, we know this both from recordings and the many works describing the musical theory. What you
are observing is that Greek and Armenian music, as well as other musics from within the Ottoman sphere of influence (Macedonian, Bulgarian, Georgian,
for example) have a complicated history, as many of the more obvious Turkish makam elements were intentionally de-emphasized for many years following
the liberation from Ottoman rule. If you listen to Ottoman era recordings, Armenians, Greeks, etc. all play with the Turkish intonation and pretty
consistent and clear microtones. Armenian music has the additional complication of diaspora musicians in America, Lebanon and Syria, who followed
different musical paths than Soviet Armenia.
There are some Greeks and Armenians who have always maintain the more codified microtonality of Ottoman music, and some of the younger generations
have been rediscovering the microtonality of the past that had been minimized in the generations following WWI—I've heard this with Greek and
Macedonian musicians particularly.
Arabs also de-emphasized the Turkish elements of the music following the collapse of Ottoman rule, but their choices were in other areas — creating
new song and instrumental forms, combining various strict makams into more flexible super-maqams (i.e., combining Beyati, Ussak, Karjighar and Husayni
into one Bayati maqam, which would then form the basis for larger-scale works rather that the usual suite of shorter works in related maqams). Arabs
also re-centered the national traditions (that were always preserved in 'folk music') and de-centered Ottoman styles. It's really impossible to know
what pre-Ottoman Armenian or Greek music sounded like, but evidently in the Arab world microtones didn't have the same conflicted associations with
Turkish influence.
Which is all to say that the music is and always has been in flux. Yes, Arab music puts microtonal choices front and center in a way that is arguably
somewhat less true of much Armenian and Greek music (though not, it seems to me, to the degree you seem to be suggesting). Bulgarian and Macedonian
music do usually restrict the microtones to vocal inflections (the accompaniment instruments generally lack microtones).
But if anything, Turkish microtones are more standardized than in Arab music (unsurprising given the fact that Turkey is one country of ~84 million
and the Arab world is ~22 countries and ~436 million people). Turkish musicians are, in my experience, much more prescriptive about exact ratios etc
(look at a Turkish kanun vs Arabic qanun, or the frets on a tanbur vs. a buzuq if you need convincing on this point).
But it's not uncommon among certain Arab musicians to play Syrian repertoire, Egyptian repertoire, Lebanese repertoire, and Ottoman repertoire all
with slightly different intonation, or even 1930s Egyptian repertoire differently from 1960s Egyptian repertoire. Some repertoire, like Iraqi or
Tunisian, are very specialized and both the intonation, maqam conception and repertoire are very different from other 'Arab' music.
The Onnik Dinkjian recording is awesome btw, the composition is really cool. Thanks for sharing that. Again, I hope this doesn't come across as
argumentative; I certainly appreciate your contributions — we don't have too many people here focused on Armenian music so it's nice to get your
perspective.
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ArmoOudist
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | | Quote: Originally posted by ArmoOudist | The more I study Armenian/Greek/Turkish music the more I understand Jody's point.
If I'm wrong about any of this, someone can correct me, but quartertones in the Arab world eventually became very systematized. Example: This is
Bayati, you must play this note half flat
This was never the case in the Ottoman World, PARTICULARLY amongst the Greeks and Armenians.
It's a mistake to view Armenian/Greek quarter tones in the same way as the Arabs. The latter use them in a much more established way, the former use
them as little embellishments and flourishes in order to spice up the notes. Think of the way certain jazz and blues players "bend" notes to put a
little soul in them.
Here are two vocal examples, one Greek, the other Armenian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGfg-lCIZbA
Listen to her voice here, the little embellishments at the end of the phrases have some notes that aren't exactly "in tune" in Western terms. She's
not consciously going in her head (alright, gotta hit that B Quarter flat), she's just sort of singing what "feels right".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwCiihvudsQ
This second song by Onnik Dinkjian uses a lot of bending. Again, it's subtle. The use of quarter tones is not obvious, but you can tell that something
is a little "off kilter."
I hope that clarifies.
|
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, as I love your enthusiasm, but it seems to me that you are a bit confused on multiple fronts.
First, the examples you list don't exactly support your thesis — both of these are very clear and obvious bayati/ussak makams, with precise and
clear microtones (or in the female singer's case, as precise as anything else she sang). The Dinkjian one is not really any less specific, precise,
or "systematized" than one would expect in Arabic music (though the precise intonation and ornamentation of the 'quarter tones' are slightly
different). Listen back to these recordings a bit more closely.
Second, you seem to be conflating whether someone "knows" what they are doing in a theoretical sense with the idea of musical intention and precision.
They have nothing necessarily to do with one another, which is (I think) part of what Jody was getting at. Traditional musicians were usually very
precise in their intentions and execution, even if they didn't have names or mental constructs for things other than "this kind of sound" and "this
other kind of sound." Whether a musician 'knows' or thinks "this is a segah note" or "this is E half flat" or "this is Si 4 komas flat" or whatever
has absolutely nothing to do with how intentional or precise they are being. Regardless of the influence of abstract or
conceptual/theoretical frameworks or vocabulary, a musician can still be extremely careful and specific about what they are doing, just by
ear. Indeed, the whole aim of being a musician is to cultivate one's ear, imagination, and skills so that "what feels right" is precisely what one
intends and what comes out, without having to rely on thought or concepts. This is a really, really important point, so apologies if I'm belaboring it
a bit.
Third, Ottoman music was very standardized and precise, we know this both from recordings and the many works describing the musical theory. What you
are observing is that Greek and Armenian music, as well as other musics from within the Ottoman sphere of influence (Macedonian, Bulgarian, Georgian,
for example) have a complicated history, as many of the more obvious Turkish makam elements were intentionally de-emphasized for many years following
the liberation from Ottoman rule. If you listen to Ottoman era recordings, Armenians, Greeks, etc. all play with the Turkish intonation and pretty
consistent and clear microtones. Armenian music has the additional complication of diaspora musicians in America, Lebanon and Syria, who followed
different musical paths than Soviet Armenia.
There are some Greeks and Armenians who have always maintain the more codified microtonality of Ottoman music, and some of the younger generations
have been rediscovering the microtonality of the past that had been minimized in the generations following WWI—I've heard this with Greek and
Macedonian musicians particularly.
Arabs also de-emphasized the Turkish elements of the music following the collapse of Ottoman rule, but their choices were in other areas — creating
new song and instrumental forms, combining various strict makams into more flexible super-maqams (i.e., combining Beyati, Ussak, Karjighar and Husayni
into one Bayati maqam, which would then form the basis for larger-scale works rather that the usual suite of shorter works in related maqams). Arabs
also re-centered the national traditions (that were always preserved in 'folk music') and de-centered Ottoman styles. It's really impossible to know
what pre-Ottoman Armenian or Greek music sounded like, but evidently in the Arab world microtones didn't have the same conflicted associations with
Turkish influence.
Which is all to say that the music is and always has been in flux. Yes, Arab music puts microtonal choices front and center in a way that is arguably
somewhat less true of much Armenian and Greek music (though not, it seems to me, to the degree you seem to be suggesting). Bulgarian and Macedonian
music do usually restrict the microtones to vocal inflections (the accompaniment instruments generally lack microtones).
But if anything, Turkish microtones are more standardized than in Arab music (unsurprising given the fact that Turkey is one country of ~84 million
and the Arab world is ~22 countries and ~436 million people). Turkish musicians are, in my experience, much more prescriptive about exact ratios etc
(look at a Turkish kanun vs Arabic qanun, or the frets on a tanbur vs. a buzuq if you need convincing on this point).
But it's not uncommon among certain Arab musicians to play Syrian repertoire, Egyptian repertoire, Lebanese repertoire, and Ottoman repertoire all
with slightly different intonation, or even 1930s Egyptian repertoire differently from 1960s Egyptian repertoire. Some repertoire, like Iraqi or
Tunisian, are very specialized and both the intonation, maqam conception and repertoire are very different from other 'Arab' music.
The Onnik Dinkjian recording is awesome btw, the composition is really cool. Thanks for sharing that. Again, I hope this doesn't come across as
argumentative; I certainly appreciate your contributions — we don't have too many people here focused on Armenian music so it's nice to get your
perspective.
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Not at all! I'm still very new to all this, so I'm not surprised that I'm wrong about a lot.
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Brian Prunka
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Glad to hear it. I'll add that I'm certainly no expert on Armenian or Greek music! But I've listened to a fair amount and spent time with Armenian,
Greek, Bulgarian, Macedonian and Georgian musicians and experienced some of their approaches, and also learned a bit from the overlap between Ottoman
history and Arabic music history. So I expect that there are others who have a much more thorough and nuanced perspective than I do.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Quote: Originally posted by kampanas | Hi Guys,
I was wondering if someone could explain to me how players pick notes that are chromatic/not in the makam when improvising. I've noticed a lot of
greek and turkish players do this, especially in greek bouzouki taximi, but I can never work out what guides the decision making. I can tell these
notes are usually not modulations but sort of 'in-between notes - perhaps I've simply misunderstood. I'd love to learn how to do this, I think it
gives improvisations such a unique flavour.
All the best,
Nick |
Hey Nick, sorry we got way off topic in the above discussion!
So I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to, but there are two main techniques found in makam/maqam-based music that I would refer to as
"chromatic" (and distinct from modulation).
1) A semitone is added below a note that you want to target or emphasize. Example, in D nahawand, you might emphasize the 4th (G) with a M3 (F#)
even though the maqam has a m3 (F).
This technique seems to have a very long history in Eastern music and can be considered largely "authentic" to the tradition.
2) A semitone is added between a whole tone gap in a scale fragment. So for instance, in Kurd on A, you might hear b3 2 b2 1 (C B Bb A) even though
the scale doesn't have a 2 — the gap between b3 and b2 is 'filled in' with the note in between. This can also occur between a microtonal note and
the note above, but I've only ever heard this used ascending (e.g., A B1/2b B C).
This technique is not usually seen or heard in Eastern music older than about 1900, and seems to be imported from the increased use of chromatic
passages in 19th century Western classical music. However, at this point we have 100+ years of hearing this in maqam/makam-based music, so it can be
considered "traditional" in a modern context (but might be avoided if one wishes to do a 'period' style performance of 19th century repertoire).
-
There is one other possibility but I wouldn't personally consider it "chromatic" playing: the use of articulated slides, in which a slide is
performed while picking (either regular picking or tremolo) so that "in-between" notes are sounded. The effect though is a glissando or slide, and
not a "chromatic" passage per se.
As Jody noted, the key thing with all of these is to emulate the examples that you hear and build up a repertoire of contexts in which various
techniques sound appropriate.
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maraoud108
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In jazz, once you know the rules, you can slide in and out of what is considered "correct", similar to what Brian
is saying. But you have to understand how it's done, what is correct, etc.
This track by Bill Evans, when he starts to solo from 30-45 seconds, he uses a bunch of devices to move out of the key and into the key center, (Bb).
Part of it is just playing the same motive a half a step above the key center. At one point he uses a diminished scale.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oatcu54hMc&ab_channel=ktdchon22
But he's able to make it work because 1, he does it in a melodic way, and 2, he knows the rules for how to get back.
It's like if you're driving from Boston to NYC, you might just take the main highways and go straight there. Or on the way you might stop to see
family in Worcester, or in Connecticut for a pizza at Pepe's. But you know how to get back on the highway, and that ultimately you're going to NYC,
baby!
And I think the genius comes in when you have artists who are either able to 1, bring you straight to NYC on the highway with slight deviations, but
with so much artistry in their execution, or two, artists who are some how able to bring you to NYC by going on a seemingly convoluted path, say
through Amherst, but on the way you can enjoy the trees in the fall changing color, and once you arrive in New York, you realize that it was their
intention to bring you there all along.
I don't yet know the rules for maqam, but gleaning the responses, I imagine it's a similar idea, just with different rules.
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