Amon
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 8-25-2021
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some more newbie questions
Hello everyone,
how are you all doing?
I have a couple more questions I'd rather bundle than spread across the forum, as I imagine most of you are busy people.
My first question is about switching types of ouds from a professional, performer or "musician" experience and daily handling of musical
instruments.
I have always been a big fan of versatility, as in all activities I have come across in both my personal(hobby) and professional life, I have found
repeatedly that having a broader range of possibilities has helped producing better results in the long run.
This being said, I have been living in Japan for almost 2 decades now, and the local opinion on this is to "stick to one specialty until you become
super good at it, and never stray from it". While I don't agree at all with the local traditional view, the need for non-specialists is what creates
a market for foreigners and their generally wider skillset lol
so my question was, how many of you find it difficult or unpleasant to switch between ouds? From arabic to turkish, from tuning to tuning or scale
length to scale length, different body sizes, etc. I understand that in the case of guitars, it's more or less about how the neck feels in relation
to one's hand size, and people who play other tuning than E to E are usually big fans of those "other" non-mainstream tuning.
I guess I'm trying to assess whether learning to play "more than one oud" is seen as a good thing or a waste of practice time.
I understand that as a professional performer focusing on one particular country's style of play, the answer would be "stick to one and don't waste
your time", but in this day and age, I'm curious how many players can afford to stick with one style/country/repertoire.
My second question is similar but relative to strings: do you actively go around brands testing different strings, or have you found your favorite
and stick with it over the years?
My third question is about 2 brands/makers of ouds I'm following on instagram. I was wondering whether they are well-known and whether some of you
might have had some experience with them.
they are Masoud Aghamohamadi @oud.masoud on instragram, and Baris Yekta Karatekeli @oudmaker_barisyekta .
I like what they're doing but there are so many makers around lol
any input is always deeply appreciated,
I wish you all a great week and please stay safe and healthy in these crazy times.
Ced
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OudSwede
Oud Addict
Posts: 43
Registered: 11-9-2020
Location: Sweden
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Hi Ced!
First, I must confess that I have not played for a very long time on the oud, and is still an active learner...
Regarding to your question on playing on different instruments/versions of the oud, I do have some knowledge being a researcher on learning processes.
Playing a music instrument requires several memory skills - the brain to connect it all, the ear to listen, the muscles in the fingers and the arms,
and also the sight. When it comes to learning a music instrument (or a sports game or language or...) the brain likes to learn several things at the
time. What is actually happening is that the brain constructs synapses between different brain cells. This goes superfast for kids, but the synapse
bindings are weak (that is, the information transferred is small), but for an adult it takes more time, but the synapse bindings are stronger (when
they are established more information can travel faster).
It is possible to learn two things at the same time, but according to current brain cognitive research, these things should not be too similar. For
example, learning to play golf and learn a new language at the sime time is not problem, but learning golf and ice hockey at the sime time confuses
the brain in the learning process. The brain likes to learn new things, but cut short tracks, that is it generalises from one thing to another (here
the synapses do their best). When you know a skill rather well, you can use this generalisation ability to learn something similar. So, to cut things
short: First, learn one instrument and tuning rather well, and then you can easily expand into other tunings and versions. That would be the fastest
way, according to brain research (altbeit there are of course indidivual differences). Perhaps, you have experienced this with stringed instruments.
If you play the oud, it is not so difficult to grasp the basics of other plucked string instruments, but these skills are hard to transfer into
playing say a flute.
Regarding your other questions, I leave that to the pros here at the forum... (although I have tested several string brands on my ouds and found that
different brands works best for me with the different ouds, depending on what sound I aim for).
/Viktor
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1354
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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I agree with the reply of OudSwede.
Every oud player I know or know of, be they pro or amateur, eventually owns more than one oud, finances permitting. And over time every oud player has
played many ouds without owning them, circumstances permitting (more likely other places than Japan). It's the same as with any other instrument.
The motive is more than curiosity, and more than acquisitiveness, though these may or may not play a part. As it is with guitar, for instance, each
oud teaches the player something unique which can then be transferred to any other oud.
It is not, however, necessary to have a different oud for each tuning. Turning the tuning pegs is a lot less expensive.
Every oud player I know or know of who has access to different kinds of strings eventually tries different kinds and some mix strings from different
sets.
I have never experienced any difficulty going between ouds or guitars etc except when an instrument is too big for my body and causes me pain or even
injury. It's not like going between playing oud and playing accordion or bagpipes, where the skill sets are very different. It's more like the
difference between walking on pavement or walking on grass. One is walking. The feel is different but adjustment to the difference takes place very
quickly. A carpenter can use any hammer, though there may be a favorite, or a favorite for each job. Going between playing one oud and another is
part of the same speciality. Going between oud and guitar is a bit less specialized. Going between playing oud and doing lawn mower repair is
stepping out of specialization.
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Khalil_Oud
Oud Maniac
Posts: 86
Registered: 8-28-2016
Location: Montreal
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Like Viktor explained very well, neurological sciences research is clear about the brain capability to do ''radical'' changes in a short period of
time : like to transfer skills from stringed instrument to wind (Vikto example). Also, he will agree about the brain plasticity theory (the brain
develops new connections when you force it to do that...), but this is more and more difficult for adults and for some people (Viktor mentioned and
explained it too).
You mentioned it : it's cultural : arabic and Turkish people and all the oud-played geography have the culture and the facility to play many
instruments.... To answer your questions on my point of view/experience, I play on oriental tuning (C to C : and change the 5e string from F, to E to
G depending of the music), also I play Iraqi tuning (F-To F and I change the 5e to : C, A and sometimes to b flat : it becomes like the logic : C To C
with 5th F !). That's why I started by agreeing with the scientific point of view : when I change from the ouds (C) to (F), I keep in my mind the same
patterns for playing the same patterns, but one string hi. I'm not the only one to do this, many use this method when they change tuning/oud. The same
thing: oud players who plays oriental tuning violin (D,G,D,G ) they keep in mind the same pattern. But the more difficult thing is when you change
from oriental oud to Iraqi tuning, is the change the technique, you can play the same, but...
For the strings, some in this Forum knows this topic more than me, but I can say : It's so difficult to find the right strings for Your Oud even ehen
you calculate the tensions (the right tension for your oud, clear or not, soft or....) that when you find the right ''sauce'' you try to keep it  and the other difficulty is to find the right strings (tension) to be able to change
it on tune hi or low without losing the sustain…like I tried to explain before.
For the makers, I leave this question to folks who knows these luthiers
Hope it helps
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Eric Stern Music
Oud Maniac
Posts: 88
Registered: 7-15-2013
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I'll also agree with what many have said here. I started on arabic oud (and to be fair had decades of knowledge of the music beforehand), and at some
point switched to turkish. Ergonomically and in terms of finger positions, etc., it didn't seem that different at first and I could definitely get a
good sound out of my ud, but of course the style was NOT Turkish (and I went from CFadgc tuning to DF#bead). But that wasn't a problem per se, because
it was and is enjoyable to learn something new, and learning Turkish makam seemed additive to the knoweldge and technique I already had, it wasn't
like starting from scratch. It just felt like a deepening of the knowledge I already had. And I think you could go either way and start on turkish and
then switch to arabic some point. Switch might be the wrong word. Extend? So to summarize, find the music you like best, play that style for as long
as you wish (but certainly doesn't have to be forever), and then if you want to go further do it. At first, with a new oud style, your fingers might
go to the same positions and ornaments, but you'll adjust after awhile. I don't really think you can go wrong here: I still play arabic style (I still
enjoy it and get called for gigs playing arabic oud, seldom turkish). Even though I immerse myself in turkish makam, it just takes a little switching
of gears over a day, or even less.
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ChanningPDX
Oud Maniac
Posts: 96
Registered: 10-15-2016
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Hi, Ced!
As something of a serial monogamist in music and a former Japan resident myself (still miss it, still can't wait to go back), I can empathize with
your predicament.
I've never wanted to be thought of as a "jack-of-all trades" musician who could bang out one tune on twenty different instruments, but what's tended
to happen is that I discover an instrument and a musical tradition that sweeps me off my feet and I dive as deep as I can with it for years... And
then something else catches my eyes and ears, and I repeat the process.
While I started out with a classical Western musical education in childhood, for the last 25 years, much of my time and effort as a musician has been
focused on playing traditional music from Scotland and Ireland on bagpipes, uilleann pipes, and the wooden flute. This is still the music I generally
get paid to play, I still thoroughly enjoy playing it, and I've worked hard enough at it that I can play it decently well--although I know that if I
focused on exclusively one of those three instruments, I would play it better. That's just not how my brain is wired though, and I've accepted it.
When I realized about four years ago that I couldn't go another day without learning to play the oud, I had a lot of the same questions as yourself.
(If you search through my posts, you'll see a number of my own newbie queries as well as helpful replies from experienced players on the forum that
helped me avoid taking some--but not all--wrong turns.)
I ended up buying a used Turkish oud by Ali Nisadir, buying some Kürschner Arabic strings for it, and getting started on the oud in the Arabic style
with a local teacher. I have no regrets about any of those things, but as I started to listen to different players and styles more carefully, learn
more of the basic rudiments of playing, and try playing a few different ouds, curiosity began to get the better of me.
I've tried studying both Arabic and Turkish styles of playing and playing ouds by Arabic and Turkish makers. I still consider myself very much a
novice, so please take any advice from me with more than a grain of salt.
Think about the music and the oud players you most enjoy listening to. You say you like both Arabic and Turkish music; so do I. Eric Ederer advised me
early on that if you like both and you want to play both, it's probably easier in the long run to learn Turkish technique and music theory and then
adapt them to playing Arabic music than the other way around. At least for me, I think this has been excellent advice.
These days, I focus on studying and playing Turkish/Ottoman music on Turkish ouds. I've tried to develop a small but varied repertoire of well known
"classical" pieces (pesrevs, saz semais, longas, etc.) as well as some songs and dance tunes in common makams. Getting acquainted with several pieces
in the same makam is a great way to start developing a familiarity with its seyir so that you can start getting into playing taksims that sound more
like taksims and less like noodling.
I currently have three ouds: the 58.5 cm scale Nisadir, oud, which I tune BF#Bead; a 57 cm scale Kamil Gül oud that I tune EABead, and a 60 cm scale
Arabic oud that I tune CGAdgc.
Frankly, I hardly notice a difference in hand positions and playing ergonomics when switching between the 57 cm and 58.5 cm scale. the 60 cm scale
does become much more noticeable of a stretch for me the higher up the neck I go. Largely for this reason, I've decided to sell this oud and switch it
out for another 58.5 cm Turkish-style oud that I'm hoping will suit me better. (If I don't sell the 60 cm oud to another local player this week, I'll
post it for sale on the forum soon.)
There are already hundreds of threads about strings on the forum. In general, I think it's a safe bet to say that if you buy a Turkish-style oud with
a 58.5 cm scale of decent quality or better and you put a medium-tension set of Turkish strings on it (say, 009 for the Turkish Kürschner &
Özten sets with modern C#F# basses or Aquila whites or LaBella OU-80s for "old Turkish" EA basses), you will most likely end up with a good
instrument that produces a good Turkish sound.
If you get a Turkish oud and tune it with a medium-tension set of "Arab" strings by Kürschner, Özten, etc., you _may_ end up with something that
works well for playing Arabic music in Arabic tuning but still sounds more Turkish than Arabic. You may also wind up with treble strings that sound
too bright or are a bit too tense and wound strings that aren't quite the right tension for a good sound. YMMV depending on the oud and the strings.
If you get an Arabic oud with a scale of 60 cm or longer, start by looking up all the posts from Brian Prunka on strings for these ouds and go from
there.
As far as I know, most modern Iranian oud makers tend to use a 58.5 cm scale and tuning in C/DGAdgc on their six-course ouds. Baris Yekta makes
traditional Turkish-style ouds in modern Turkish and Arabic tuning. I doubt you could go wrong with either of the makers you mentioned if you have the
money to pay for one of their ouds. They're not cheap.
If I could start over again, I'd make a much more concerted effort to try and find other oud players to listen to in person and try as many different
kinds of ouds as I could before I invested in a high-quality instrument. Not an easy thing for many of us on the forum to do, but Japan would be even
more difficult than most places represented here.
Where in Japan are you? Navid Goldrick is in Himeji; I'm pretty sure there are a couple of very good Turkish-style players somewhere in/around Kyoto,
and several more good players focused on Turkish or Arabic style in the Tokyo metro region. There are probably plenty of other good players I don't
know about further afield. Navid might know.
Good luck! Let us know how you get on!
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coolsciguy
Oud Junkie
Posts: 225
Registered: 5-14-2020
Location: Washington D.C.
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Masoud Aghamohamadi is a fairly established luthier who has built instruments for many professional oudists in Iran. If you like his style of ouds, he
would be a safe bet to buy from.
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Amon
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 8-25-2021
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Hi everyone
Thanks a million for all the responses
This forum is awesome
I had never thought about how learning similar things at the same time might confuse the learning process, thanks for that! I guess I'll stay away
from guitars and such while focusing on the oud. Fooling around with alternative tuning is something I'll reserve for when I have more music theory
down, I fear.
My main question was mostly about people switching from a short scale to a longer one, especially while tuning stays the same, or having to use a
backup instrument or someone else's. The thing I've practiced the most in my life, except for mental things like languages, is archery. And I
vividly remember being shocked watching a lot/most far advanced veteran archers becoming pretty much useless as soon as their bow settings were off by
accident, or having to borrow or just try out someone else's bow. Accuracy would fall to pretty much zero, which made no sense to me as the bow and
arrow come from hunting. Birds taking flights don't care about olympic style bow precision settings. Always felt weird to me to be unable to transfer
at least the bulk of your skill to a similar tool "quickly".
Thanks also for the vouching of Mr. Aghamohamadi. He's one of the most responsive makers on Instagram in English.
@ChanningPDX please allow me to message you later about your life in Japan
a great to you all
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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Just to chime in — I have mostly the same experience as Channing and others with regard to scale length: I don't really notice the difference in
scale length when switching between ouds.
I have a 58.5cm Turkish and 57, 59, 60 cm Arabic and also occasionally play 61, 61.5 or even 62cm Arabic ouds. My main ouds are 60cm — this is my
preferred size for Arabic ouds, so it's right in the middle. I imagine for someone who usually plays 58.5 and then played 61.5 that might seem like a
bigger difference.
I do notice some significant differences around 61.5-62cm, which I expect has more to do with the actual size of my hands and not just what I'm used
to. My hands are relatively large (I have to buy large men's gloves, for example) but not huge (x-large gloves are not the right fit). So someone
with smaller hands may have a lower threshold for when they have to noticeably adjust their technique for a larger scale oud.
But there is very little issue with switching, generally speaking. Part of the reason is that most of your oud playing (if you have reached a decent
level of skill) is not anywhere near the limits of your skill technically, so even if there are some small adjustments or slight loss of technical
capacity, you have plenty to spare. Something like competitive archery is, I imagine, almost entirely exploring the upper limits of technique and so
any loss of skill is significant. I can imagine for a very technical piece that is at or near the limits of my ability, switching ouds would require
some readjustment.
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Amon
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 8-25-2021
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Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  | Just to chime in — I have mostly the same experience as Channing and others with regard to scale length: I don't really notice the difference in
scale length when switching between ouds.
I have a 58.5cm Turkish and 57, 59, 60 cm Arabic and also occasionally play 61, 61.5 or even 62cm Arabic ouds. My main ouds are 60cm — this is my
preferred size for Arabic ouds, so it's right in the middle. I imagine for someone who usually plays 58.5 and then played 61.5 that might seem like a
bigger difference.
I do notice some significant differences around 61.5-62cm, which I expect has more to do with the actual size of my hands and not just what I'm used
to. My hands are relatively large (I have to buy large men's gloves, for example) but not huge (x-large gloves are not the right fit). So someone
with smaller hands may have a lower threshold for when they have to noticeably adjust their technique for a larger scale oud.
But there is very little issue with switching, generally speaking. Part of the reason is that most of your oud playing (if you have reached a decent
level of skill) is not anywhere near the limits of your skill technically, so even if there are some small adjustments or slight loss of technical
capacity, you have plenty to spare. Something like competitive archery is, I imagine, almost entirely exploring the upper limits of technique and so
any loss of skill is significant. I can imagine for a very technical piece that is at or near the limits of my ability, switching ouds would require
some readjustment. |
Hi Brian Thanks for the input!
Glad to hear all that. Yeah, archery is mostly because hunting/traditional style is based on "whole body aiming", where you just get used to getting
the arrow where you want to without having to think about body posture or anything. So even on a borrowed bow, a handful of test shots would be enough
to "get it", while olympic/sport style is 100% dependent on good(repeated perfectly) posture, arm position, the amount of tension in the hands and
joints, the visual/targeting settings on the bow itself, etc. In the end, it's very artificial. Something that is worse than that to me, is that if
you take a few friends to an archery range, the hunting style can be taught in 30min, and at close range people can easily have fun the same day. The
sports style is going be super boring for weeks. I believe having fun is necessary to motivate and inspire people, especially kids.
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dusepo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 107
Registered: 2-6-2021
Location: London, Britain
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Mood: Dastgah-e Chahargah ?????? ???????
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I've found that switching between 58.5cm (which I usually play) and 60cm only takes me a short time to adjust to. Within half an hour or less of
playing, my fingers and ears can adjust between the two. What I find more of a challenge is switching between body sizes - deep ouds vs less deep, as
this forces my entire playing position to change. You will probably always be best at your preferred scale length, the one you practice most, but it
is possible to adjust if playing someone else's oud or whatever.
That's my experience, anyway...
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