LudwigVan
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The E half-flat of Bayati vs. the E half-flat of Rast
According to Maqam World, jins al-Bayati is:
One of the most common sounds in Arabic music. The tuning of the 2nd note (E half-flat) is slightly lower and more mellow than the E half-flat
used in the Rast and Sikah sets. (http://www.maqamworld.com/ajnas.html)
What does the author mean exactly by this? The pitch in Bayati is a comma lower than in Rast/Sikah?
Since I rather use comma/limma measurements than 12/24-tone - or better yet, just intonation ratios expressed in fractions of commas - I attached my
own 53-tone Pythagorean fretboard guide (600 mm scale), clear-taped to the top side of the neck. It only works properly when printed at 96 dots per
inch, and it should be printed using a Landscape orientation.
~Danny~
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eliot
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Yes - if you're thinking in Turkish tuning terms, if the Bayyati E 1/2-b is 3 commas flat, the Rast/ Segah one is 2 commas flat.
Sometimes, the Bayyati E 1/2-b, furthermore, is played at a certain pitch (say 3 commas flat), but in a major descending phrase that ends on the durak
(D) will be played one comma lower than that.
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LudwigVan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by eliot
Yes - if you're thinking in Turkish tuning terms, if the Bayyati E 1/2-b is 3 commas flat, the Rast/ Segah one is 2 commas flat.
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.. and I reckon the lower E half-flat is also used in Saba. Thanks for the help; I was unsure.
In JI ratios, I guess that means Rast/Sikah has a 3/4-tone step of 12/11, and in Bayyati/Saba, 88/81 (or 13/12 maybe?). The difference is actually
about half of a comma, so there's probably not much to nitpick about.
| Quote: | | Sometimes, the Bayyati E 1/2-b, furthermore, is played at a certain pitch (say 3 commas flat), but in a major descending phrase that ends on the durak
(D) will be played one comma lower than that. |
You mean one comma higher? Because one comma lower would be E-flat up a comma, as found in Hijaz and Nahawand.
(I still need to learn all the terminology. You can pro'lly tell I'm a music theory geek as well as a language geek.  )
~Danny~
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Brian Prunka
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LV - I have a question: how did you arrive at the just intonation ratio for your E 1/2b?
RE: intonation:
the intonation in Arabic music is noticeably different than in Turkish, and the comma divisions are misleading when applied to Arabic music.
In Arabic music, the term comma isn't specific as in Turkish music (unless the musician knows Turkish theory and is referring to it); it's a more
general way of referring to a small difference in intonation. The difference between Rast's and Bayati's E 1/2b's is disagreed upon . . . for the
most part, it would seem to be less than a comma. Syrian theorists were apparently influenced by the Turkish theory, but it's not apparent the degree
to which this affected musical practice.
While the Eb in Hijaz is higher in Arabic music, it's not as high as the one in Turkish music, so a slightly lower E 1/2b in bayati descending doesn't
sound like a Hijaz Eb. And from what i've observed, it seems that the descending E 1/2b isn't much lower, but the players gliss downard after playing
the note, giving the impression that it's lower.
and in Arabic music anyway, the Eb of Nahawand is not high. If anything, it's low. The Eb of Nikriz and Nawa'athar is high, like Hijaz.
Ultimately, all this is passed on by ear . . .
As a theory geek, you will probably be fascinated by Dr. Scott Marcus's "Arabic Music Theory in the Modern Period" an 800+ page dissertation on maqam
theory.
I imagine you are aware of "Harmonic Experience" by Mathieu, but if not, check it out.
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eliot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by LudwigVan
.. and I reckon the lower E half-flat is also used in Saba. Thanks for the help; I was unsure.
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Maybe. Sometimes it's the same as Beyati, but sometimes this one varies a lot - Rast-like in ascending passages; Beyati-like in descending ones.
Depends on the ensemble and the piece of music, I think.
| Quote: | | In JI ratios, I guess that means Rast/Sikah has a 3/4-tone step of 12/11, and in Bayyati/Saba, 88/81 (or 13/12 maybe?). The difference is actually
about half of a comma, so there's probably not much to nitpick about. |
No, that can't be right. It's impossible to space tanbur frets 1/2 comma apart.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Sometimes, the Bayyati E 1/2-b, furthermore, is played at a certain pitch (say 3 commas flat), but in a major descending phrase that ends on the durak
(D) will be played one comma lower than that. |
You mean one comma higher? Because one comma lower would be E-flat up a comma, as found in Hijaz and Nahawand.
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But those E flats (notated 4 commas flat) are often played much closer to the "Western" 4.5 commas flat. On the tanbur, there would be a fret for 4
commas flat placed lower than the literal 4 commas flat which in a descending Beyati phrase would be slightly bent up.
I'm a little concerned about your concern for Just-Intoned or Western mathematical precision, since if you analyze the tunings of enough ensembles,
you'll find that though there is a consistent internal logic to their tuning (i.e. accuracy), there is not the same consistency from ensemble to
ensemble (i.e., universal precision). Thus, it's better to think of things in relative and not mathematically "accurate" terms (a flexible definition
of what a koma might be). What is notated as "1 comma flat" varies by up to 50 cents between regional performance practices!
Historically, not until the 1910s was there any concern about the absolute precision of intonation AT ALL. Relative accuracy was very important,
however, and part of the milieu of personal style. It's that damn modernization project and the attempts by a few Turkish theorists (Ezgi, Arel, Yekta
Bey) to prove to Ziya Gokalp that Turkish music is just as mathematically convoluted as the most esoteric Western music practices, hoping to save it
from being totally cut from the conservatory curiculum.
Likewise, in Egypt, the Cairo Conference of 1931 really messed things up - attempting to reconcile the regional playing differences of the best
Kuwaiti, Syrian, Egypian, etc. musicians with some Westernization advocates asking for 12-note equal temperament and Paul Hindemith screaming about
not destroying old traditions...
Definitely read Scott Marcus' dissertation - it's available online for digital download from UMI microfilms. He also has 2 articles published in the
early 1990s in ethnomusicology journals on intonation. There's some discussion of intonation in The Garland Encyclopedia of World Music: Middle East
(a huge, huge work with some great chapters and some really weird ones) in various local contexts, too.
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eliot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Brian Prunka
the intonation in Arabic music is noticeably different than in Turkish, and the comma divisions are misleading when applied to Arabic music.
In Arabic music, the term comma isn't specific as in Turkish music (unless the musician knows Turkish theory and is referring to it); it's a more
general way of referring to a small difference in intonation. The difference between Rast's and Bayati's E 1/2b's is disagreed upon . . . for the
most part, it would seem to be less than a comma. Syrian theorists were apparently influenced by the Turkish theory, but it's not apparent the degree
to which this affected musical practice. |
Current Arab and Turkish practices certainly describe their musics differently, even if they accidentally end up producing similar results... I think
what I say in the preceeding post about regional variation applies outside of just Turkey to include most Arab regional styles. Totally agree with you
about the disagreement concerning the difference (if any - some musicians deny any difference) between Beyati and Rast E 1/2-b. However, the
"official" intonation difference between those two notes is one pythagorean comma, if my memory of the conference proceedings is accurate. Of course,
where musicians play it is another matter...
The idea of Nahwand's third note being lower than other Eb was tacked onto the "official" 24-note equal tempered system of Egyptian music on the last
day of the Cairo Conference despite protests of some participants. We can see in that fateful day the disagreements and where they were based; the
other note added was the Beyati E 1/2-b. These 2 notes, non equal-tempered notes added to a theoretical 24-note equal tempered system, exemplify the
long-standing difference been between theory and practice!
| Quote: |
Ultimately, all this is passed on by ear . . .
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YES!!!!
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LudwigVan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Brian Prunka
LV - I have a question: how did you arrive at the just intonation ratio for your E 1/2b? |
A guess, really. I was going by Zalzal and Al-Farabi's definitions of a quartertone (the neutral third is given as 27/22, for example).
| Quote: | | and in Arabic music anyway, the Eb of Nahawand is not high. If anything, it's low. The Eb of Nikriz and Nawa'athar is high, like Hijaz.
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so it's just in the Hijaz tetrachord and derivations, where the augmented second is narrowed a bit...
| Quote: | As a theory geek, you will probably be fascinated by Dr. Scott Marcus's "Arabic Music Theory in the Modern Period" an 800+ page dissertation on maqam
theory.
I imagine you are aware of "Harmonic Experience" by Mathieu, but if not, check it out. |
I read a good bit of Dr. Marcus' work at the university library. I have yet to read Mathieu, however.
~Danny~
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LudwigVan
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| Quote: | | I'm a little concerned about your concern for Just-Intoned or Western mathematical precision, since if you analyze the tunings of enough ensembles,
you'll find that though there is a consistent internal logic to their tuning (i.e. accuracy), there is not the same consistency from ensemble to
ensemble (i.e., universal precision). Thus, it's better to think of things in relative and not mathematically "accurate" terms (a flexible definition
of what a koma might be). What is notated as "1 comma flat" varies by up to 50 cents between regional performance practices! |
Western music is almost always viewed from a 12-tone equal perspective, so most of us don't even care about precision, really. I like to think in
terms of JI, but I'm not trying to be dead-on precise. I'm not *that* good of a musician or instrumentalist. (And I've heard electronic music in pure
JI, and it sounds completely dry and sterile.)
My obsession with accuracy comes from two sources: the fact I'm rebelling against Western 12-tone so much, and that I'm a bass player, and while you
hear a violinist or singer when he's out of tune, you *feel* a bass player when he's out of tune. (Or at least I do.)
| Quote: | | Historically, not until the 1910s was there any concern about the absolute precision of intonation AT ALL. Relative accuracy was very important,
however, and part of the milieu of personal style. It's that damn modernization project and the attempts by a few Turkish theorists (Ezgi, Arel, Yekta
Bey) to prove to Ziya Gokalp that Turkish music is just as mathematically convoluted as the most esoteric Western music practices, hoping to save it
from being totally cut from the conservatory curiculum. |
I've been corresponding with a conservatory student in Istanbul some lately; he told me a lot of politics was also involved... (don't mean to take
this thread to OT land)
He doesn't speak highly of Ezgi, Arel or Yekta Bey either.
~Danny~
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Brian Prunka
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Hey LV,
I was curious, b/c to properly define a JI ratio, it has to be a multiple of the interval of the third, fifth, or octave or their reciprocals (for
5-limit JI--7-limit allows the 7:1 ratio; 11-limit, the next useful addition, allows the 11:1 ratio, though that system does not bear any relation to
what humans can demonstrably hear)
Which isn't to say that quarter-tones can't also be expressed as ratios, but that not just any ratio qualifies as JI.
My personal feeling is that microtonality in middle-eastern music is actually a sophisticated way of creating tension between the pure just intervals
that we expect (not just as westerners, by the way, since just intonation is based on acoustic phenomenon deeply tied to the way that our brains/ears
process sounds) and the actual sounds we hear. The subtle control over the way that tension occurs is part of the beauty of the music (and also why
personal style can have an impact on intonation without detracting from the music).
ultimately, you could eventually find a just ratio which corresponds to a quarter-tone that someone actually played in real life, but the mathematical
path would be so convoluted that the likelihood of it as a reasonable explanation of what's happening is dubious.
In a sense, all 12TET music is also microtonal, it just has different results and a different kind of beauty (the beauty of seamlessly making
extremely compex harmonic movement and modulation that would be impossible in any other system). In fact, microtonality seems practically built into
the way music works, since even in non-modulating major-scale JI (almost the most non-microtonal system available), you need two different major
sixths (separated by a comma).
In practice, very little western music is strictly 12TET; it's a mix of 12TET, 5-limit and 7-limit JI (7-limit occurs in blues and jazz music)
Brian
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eliot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by LudwigVan
Western music is almost always viewed from a 12-tone equal perspective, so most of us don't even care about precision, really. I like to think in
terms of JI, but I'm not trying to be dead-on precise. I'm not *that* good of a musician or instrumentalist. (And I've heard electronic music in pure
JI, and it sounds completely dry and sterile.)
My obsession with accuracy comes from two sources: the fact I'm rebelling against Western 12-tone so much, and that I'm a bass player, and while you
hear a violinist or singer when he's out of tune, you *feel* a bass player when he's out of tune. (Or at least I do.) |
We're very similar then - I too grew really sick of Western equal-tempered music (being a pianist, formerly). What drew me into makams was the
flexibility in the makam system regarding tuning, and the fact that subtle intonation changes of a very small degree are not only ok, but are
literally considered expressive or aesthetically pleasing. Also, I've come to really like hearing the same piece played really differently by
different regional musicians (at first it pissed me off - why can't you play 'in tune'?) - thus Beyati comes to be something of a "lifelong journey"
where you encounter even more colors or ways of interpreting a few key intervals.
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