Victoria
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General advice and advice on moving back to previously played notes
Hi again 
So I have now reached a bit further into my basic oud introductional course and have learned to play a few notes. I still make mistakes and would love
to hear your opinion on my playing and what I should work on the most (apart from not making mistakes while playing  ):
https://youtu.be/6h4xdrKC5HE
As far as I know I am still too tense but I managed to make the oud rest firmly and keep it in place while playing. I am not using my left hand at all
to keep it in place.
The oud is possibly positioned too much to the right. The good thing is I found a balance regarding where to play with the risha without any issues:
Between the two smallest sound holes. This seems to work well and my wrist does not hurt anymore (partly because I stretch out after practice when
necessary).
I know I am sometimes unintentionally muting the c' course but this actually doesn't happen as often as it used to
Also I have one other question: Is there any rule of thumb regarding which notes to keep pressing down when playing nearby ones and returning to a
note other than what is obvious when going back to a note on the same course? In this video I simply did like the instructor.
Thanks an advance for any advice
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Jody Stecher
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Long answer: On oud as with any other string instrument with a fingerboard, when going to a lower note on the same string of course the finger needs
to be lifted to gain access to the lower pitch. When going to a higher note on the same string the finger should remain if its pitch is going to be
played soon after. If it is not going to be played again soon the finger may be lifted but it can also remain if it does not cause a strain on the
hand. If the index plays the first note and the next 7 notes are all played by the 4th and 3rd finger it might be more comfortable to lift the index.
After all, it is not needed. One thing for sure: once a higher note is played on the same string the pitch of the first note will no longer be heard.
When playing the next note on another string, either a higher pitched or lower pitched string, we have a different situation. If the finger of the
first note remains in place the note will sustain longer than if we lift it. This can cause a pleasant consonance or harmony with the next pitch
played or it can cause a dissonance. The choice depends on the desired effect. Sometimes note 1 continuing to ring can cause "mud", sometimes beauty,
sometimes Beautiful Mud. If the first note is going to be needed again right away, then leaving the finger down is a good idea.
Short answer: don't lift a finger for no reason. Don't leave a finger down for no reason. Do what is needed. Avoid creating obstacles.
Answer in relation to the video: this fingering makes sense. There are other options. At the end one might lay down the middle and index together,
strike C, lift the middle which makes B available, lift the index and make A available.
In the descent The third finger playing f sharp at the end of b-a-g-f# could be left down for the next phrase (a g f# e) since it will be needed soon.
At higher speed I would do that. It's a reflex. But it's ok to lift it at slower speed especially if one wants to avoid the discord of f# and g. I
like it. And then it gets resolved when the *a* is sounded.
Answer in relation to the body: if it hurts it might be wrong. If it helps, especially at faster speed, it's probably right. If it damages the body it
is definitely wrong.
Back to the video: you are lifting the risha and the right hand more than necessary on your up-strokes. At this speed it matters less. At faster
speeds it might be inefficient to lift it so far away from the string.
Summary: there are three factors to consider in relation to lifting a finger or leaving it in place. They are *sound*, *efficiency* which includes
economy of motion, and *comfort*. Comfort includes pain avoidance and avoiding damaging the body.
Quote: Originally posted by Victoria  | Hi again
Is there any rule of thumb regarding which notes to keep pressing down when playing nearby ones and returning to a note other than what is obvious
when going back to a note on the same course? In this video I simply did like the instructor.
Thanks an advance for any advice |
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Victoria
Oud Addict
Posts: 48
Registered: 1-24-2023
Location: Odense, Denmark
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | Long answer: On oud as with any other string instrument with a fingerboard, when going to a lower note on the same string of course the finger needs
to be lifted to gain access to the lower pitch. When going to a higher note on the same string the finger should remain if its pitch is going to be
played soon after. If it is not going to be played again soon the finger may be lifted but it can also remain if it does not cause a strain on the
hand. If the index plays the first note and the next 7 notes are all played by the 4th and 3rd finger it might be more comfortable to lift the index.
After all, it is not needed. One thing for sure: once a higher note is played on the same string the pitch of the first note will no longer be heard.
When playing the next note on another string, either a higher pitched or lower pitched string, we have a different situation. If the finger of the
first note remains in place the note will sustain longer than if we lift it. This can cause a pleasant consonance or harmony with the next pitch
played or it can cause a dissonance. The choice depends on the desired effect. Sometimes note 1 continuing to ring can cause "mud", sometimes beauty,
sometimes Beautiful Mud. If the first note is going to be needed again right away, then leaving the finger down is a good idea.
Short answer: don't lift a finger for no reason. Don't leave a finger down for no reason. Do what is needed. Avoid creating obstacles.
Answer in relation to the video: this fingering makes sense. There are other options. At the end one might lay down the middle and index together,
strike C, lift the middle which makes B available, lift the index and make A available.
In the descent The third finger playing f sharp at the end of b-a-g-f# could be left down for the next phrase (a g f# e) since it will be needed soon.
At higher speed I would do that. It's a reflex. But it's ok to lift it at slower speed especially if one wants to avoid the discord of f# and g. I
like it. And then it gets resolved when the *a* is sounded.
Answer in relation to the body: if it hurts it might be wrong. If it helps, especially at faster speed, it's probably right. If it damages the body it
is definitely wrong.
Back to the video: you are lifting the risha and the right hand more than necessary on your up-strokes. At this speed it matters less. At faster
speeds it might be inefficient to lift it so far away from the string.
Summary: there are three factors to consider in relation to lifting a finger or leaving it in place. They are *sound*, *efficiency* which includes
economy of motion, and *comfort*. Comfort includes pain avoidance and avoiding damaging the body.
|
Hi Jody. Thanks a lot! Your advice are excellent and very concise and
useful for me. You totally answered all my questions which is really nice because this is most often overlooked in the explanations of instructional
videos. So it is much appreciated
I will work on the things you suggested regarding the risha and try out the options that can be used for the notes in this exercise. Totally makes
sense. I guess there is a way for me to make it all more economical and comfortable. I am already feeling a lot of improvements and the oud is more
comfortable than it used to. Nice
It also makes a lot of sense regarding the notes and how they interfere or complement each other. And the difference between whether them being on the
same course of other courses and even the considerations whether they are being used again soon after. Seems clearer to me now.
So thanks a whole lot for your excellent explanations
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Brian Prunka
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Jody's answer is very good. The general position of your oud looks okay. The oud doesn't need to be held "firmly" but rather one needs to find a
position that allows it to balance and rest lightly in your arms. This is of course easier said than done, but rest assured that it is possible.
Regarding finger placement, not much to add to Jody's response but the way I think about it this: fingers should generally stay close to the strings
if possible, and should anticipate the note after the current one. After a while, this becomes instinctive: when the 3rd finger goes down (for
example), if the next note is the second finger it will also be placed in position, but if the next note is the open string than the second finger
will stay out of the way.
Regarding this exercise: I would never prescribe this exercise to someone at your level, particularly if you are having any kind of ergonomic
problems. This kind of string-crossing while alternate picking is very advanced (so much so that you will rarely hear oud players do it at all prior
to the 1950s).
In my opinion, the basic down stroke should be much more before attempting something like this. At this speed (and really at twice this speed), you
should be able to play all down strokes. At a minimum, it would be more advantageous to practices starting each new string on a down stroke if one
wants to include upstrokes. You will almost certainly make faster progress if you emulate the evolution of oud technique in your own development.
Not all schools of playing would 100% agree with me on this - the Targan/Bashir/Shamma school in particular emphasizes this kind of exercise early on.
But most of the players studying that method are coming in with a much more developed down stroke already, and also have many years of cultural
immersion (e.g., watching oud players growing up) provided a solid foundation for ergonomics and technique. And they all study in person with a
regular teacher.
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Victoria
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Posts: 48
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Location: Odense, Denmark
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | Jody's answer is very good. The general position of your oud looks okay. The oud doesn't need to be held "firmly" but rather one needs to find a
position that allows it to balance and rest lightly in your arms. This is of course easier said than done, but rest assured that it is possible.
Regarding finger placement, not much to add to Jody's response but the way I think about it this: fingers should generally stay close to the strings
if possible, and should anticipate the note after the current one. After a while, this becomes instinctive: when the 3rd finger goes down (for
example), if the next note is the second finger it will also be placed in position, but if the next note is the open string than the second finger
will stay out of the way.
Regarding this exercise: I would never prescribe this exercise to someone at your level, particularly if you are having any kind of ergonomic
problems. This kind of string-crossing while alternate picking is very advanced (so much so that you will rarely hear oud players do it at all prior
to the 1950s).
In my opinion, the basic down stroke should be much more before attempting something like this. At this speed (and really at twice this speed), you
should be able to play all down strokes. At a minimum, it would be more advantageous to practices starting each new string on a down stroke if one
wants to include upstrokes. You will almost certainly make faster progress if you emulate the evolution of oud technique in your own development.
Not all schools of playing would 100% agree with me on this - the Targan/Bashir/Shamma school in particular emphasizes this kind of exercise early on.
But most of the players studying that method are coming in with a much more developed down stroke already, and also have many years of cultural
immersion (e.g., watching oud players growing up) provided a solid foundation for ergonomics and technique. And they all study in person with a
regular teacher. |
Thanks for checking out the video and once again for your valuable advice.
Well what I feel is that the oud is really light and it moves around so easily. So there is a risk that I may be holding it a bit too firmly because
of it.  It always feels quite awkward and uncomfortable somehow.
The finger placement seems comprehensible to me at least and I think it will soon become even more natural to me with the positioning. But I did not
know that this exercise is perceived as complicated. I guess that doesn't help on me being tense as I am not very experienced yet. But the reason I am
doing the exercise is because this was the order provided by Oud for Guitarists. It is based on Jamil Bashir but I have to admit I was wondering why
it was actually exercise 19 in his book but exercise 7 in Oud for Guitarists. It seems a bit too early I guess. Would you recommend me to do other
exercises from other teachers before moving on?
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Brian Prunka
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I’d suggest you focus on playing some songs, not exercises. The songs can dictate what techniques you need. Most songs can be played 80-100% with
downstrokes.
I can’t speak to Navid’s system, but personally I find every student to be different and so any system is problematic unless implemented by a
teacher who is evaluating you every step of the way. The feedback and adjustments a teacher can provide are essential.
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Victoria
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Posts: 48
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Location: Odense, Denmark
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | I’d suggest you focus on playing some songs, not exercises. The songs can dictate what techniques you need. Most songs can be played 80-100% with
downstrokes.
I can’t speak to Navid’s system, but personally I find every student to be different and so any system is problematic unless implemented by a
teacher who is evaluating you every step of the way. The feedback and adjustments a teacher can provide are essential. |
Okay then. Do you have any suggestions for songs I can play on my level?
EDIT: I am concidering learning this song when I am ready to play again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9rzGoMSjYE
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Brian Prunka
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That tune seems fine, and Navid put together a nice tutorial. Another good songs for beginners is Bint al Shalabiyya (nahawand). The classic Syrian
version as sung by Sabah Fakhri is pretty short and simple. The version by Fairuz adds another section (though it's not complicated). This is usually
played nahawand on C (sometimes on D).
A very similar and possibly related song is Uskudara. This is more often played nahawand on D.
There are a bunch of nice short songs in Hijaz:
Ah ya zein, Foug el Nakhel, el Bulbul Nagha, Hali hali hal, Qadduka al Mayyas
hali hali hal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-q9yF1uJyI
Foug el Nakhel & el Bulbul Nagha (starts with doulab Hijaz, second piece is Foug, third piece is Bulbul): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-q9yF1uJyI
another version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9OWeO9SRlc
Qaddukka al Mayyas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFEO28dbCtI
Ah Ya Zein:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n9LZkylsB8
Instrumental arrangement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfPLlTmbcJY (main version starts around 0:35)
These are all very popular, short and fairly easy to learn by ear. If you need help, the sheet music is probably available somewhere.
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Brian Prunka
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One note, a lot of recordings are probably not "tuned" the same as your oud.
The standard position of Hijaz is D, with the following notes:
(B 1/2b C) D Eb F# G A Bb (B 1/2b) C D
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Victoria
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Location: Odense, Denmark
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | One note, a lot of recordings are probably not "tuned" the same as your oud.
The standard position of Hijaz is D, with the following notes:
(B 1/2b C) D Eb F# G A Bb (B 1/2b) C D
|
Thanks for the nice tunes I can play. To be honest I am excited to try playing some actual pieces instead of just scales. So definitely looking
forward to trying them out. My tuning is c`g d A G C. So I will have to play in that tuning I guess as I am not very keen on changing strings
I also found out that the issue with my wrist started to happen as I ceased using a mirror so maybe I am beginning to hold the oud in a more
inappropriate and tense manner. The reason I stopped using it was to make sure that I was indeed able to play without a mirror, which I was. I will
try reintroducing the mirror and check if I am still positioning myself correctly. I am also planning on buying a wrist support.
This is my typical setup with mirror:
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Jody Stecher
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Oud players who accompany singers typically tune to the singer. So the c for instance might be B or between B flat and B natural etc. Wherever.
Strings are not changed for this. And some ouds (playing solo) will sound better tuned a bit low. Same strings, better sound. Also some maqam-s will
sound and play better if the fifth course is tuned FF instead of GG. Again, no strings need to be changed. Just turn the knobs.
| Quote: Originally posted by Victoria | | Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | One note, a lot of recordings are probably not "tuned" the same as your oud.
The standard position of Hijaz is D, with the following notes:
(B 1/2b C) D Eb F# G A Bb (B 1/2b) C D
|
My tuning is c`g d A G C. So I will have to play in that tuning I guess as I am not very keen on changing strings
] |
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coolsciguy
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | Oud players who accompany singers typically tune to the singer. So the c for instance might be B or between B flat and B natural etc. Wherever.
Strings are not changed for this. And some ouds (playing solo) will sound better tuned a bit low. Same strings, better sound. Also some maqam-s will
sound and play better if the fifth course is tuned FF instead of GG. Again, no strings need to be changed. Just turn the knobs.
|
Jody, you said it so well. This should go in the forum FAQ section if there is one. Regarding the FF versus GG, isn't it that some ouds generally
sound better with FF (regardless of the maqam)?
A luthier once told me changing tuning like you describe is not easy on the instrument. Would you agree with this statement?
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Jody Stecher
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I agree that many ouds sound better with the 5th course at FF. I was trying to keep things simple in my post.
I don't know what your luthier actually meant and what you mean to convey. Does "hard on the instrument" mean "difficult to do on an oud" or does it
mean "potentially damaging to the oud?"
It could mean tuning is difficult or it could mean that changing tuning causes stress to an oud.
In the latter case, certainly tuning to a higher tension then the string(s) and oud are designed to withstand may damage the instrument. I sometimes
tuned too high on my first oud in the 1960s. It had a long scale of about 63 cm. I was lucky. The bridge came off without taking part of the
soundboard with it. My local luthier glued it back on using an old tire inner tube to clamp it in place. The round bowl assisted in that. Worse can
happen, including total implosion.
But why would tuning to a lower pitch cause damage to an oud?
In the former case, sure, changing tuning is difficult on ouds with poorly fitted pegs. Otherwise it's no different than changing tuning on any
instrument with friction pegs. Most oud players have to make tuning adjustments at least once a day anyway as changes of humidity and temperature
cause contraction and expansion of the various materials that comprise an oud (and strings too). So why should tuning to A440 be easier than tuning
to something else — I dunno — A402 let's say. You turn the peg and push in and mess around until it's right. Then you play and you're in tune with
the other musicians —until you're not— and then you make small adjustments. Turning a peg is turning a peg.
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coolsciguy
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher |
It could mean tuning is difficult or it could mean that changing tuning causes stress to an oud.
In the latter case, certainly tuning to a higher tension then the string(s) and oud are designed to withstand may damage the instrument.
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Thanks for the explanation, Jody. Apologies if my text was confusing.
I meant the latter; my luthier's message was that any instrument should be tuned to a particular pitch and kept there if possible. He pointed that
variations on tunings (e.g. a step lower and then back to standard tuning) harm the oud over time and affect longevity of the instrument.
Higher tension tuning is certainly a no no.
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Jody Stecher
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By that logic a string that was in tune yesterday but is found the next day to have gone out of tune overnight should not be tuned back to its proper
pitch because doing so will wear out the instrument.
I have an idea about what the luthier was talking about. An instrument will get accustomed to responding to the pitches that its human plays upon it.
It becomes responsive to those pitches. When the strings are tuned down in pitch to where none of the former pitches would be sounded it sounds dead
and cross for a while. But it will adjust in time. Does this wear out an oud or a soundboard? I think it probably does not. But maybe I'm wrong.
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Victoria
Oud Addict
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Location: Odense, Denmark
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jody Stecher | Oud players who accompany singers typically tune to the singer. So the c for instance might be B or between B flat and B natural etc. Wherever.
Strings are not changed for this. And some ouds (playing solo) will sound better tuned a bit low. Same strings, better sound. Also some maqam-s will
sound and play better if the fifth course is tuned FF instead of GG. Again, no strings need to be changed. Just turn the knobs.
| Quote: Originally posted by Victoria | | Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | One note, a lot of recordings are probably not "tuned" the same as your oud.
The standard position of Hijaz is D, with the following notes:
(B 1/2b C) D Eb F# G A Bb (B 1/2b) C D
|
My tuning is c`g d A G C. So I will have to play in that tuning I guess as I am not very keen on changing strings
] |
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OK then so as long as you tune it lower it is OK but not higher than was meant to. And changing between F and G is OK with many brands of strings as I
understand because they were actually made for c`g d A F# C 
By the way I tune the oud every day before playing using a clip-on tuner. Ofc that was a while ago as I haven't played for a week now due to my wrist
injury.
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Brian Prunka
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You don’t have to change the tuning—it’s just good to know that if playing along to a C recording it may be in a ‘strange’ key. You can
still just play in the regular key.
I find it helpful to use a program like Transcribe! Since it allows you to retune the recording rather than retune your oud all the time. Of course
with vocalists it sounds a little weird, but it’s helpful for learning.
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Victoria
Oud Addict
Posts: 48
Registered: 1-24-2023
Location: Odense, Denmark
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | You don’t have to change the tuning—it’s just good to know that if playing along to a C recording it may be in a ‘strange’ key. You can
still just play in the regular key.
I find it helpful to use a program like Transcribe! Since it allows you to retune the recording rather than retune your oud all the time. Of course
with vocalists it sounds a little weird, but it’s helpful for learning. |
Ah ok. Well I would mostly like it not to sound strange so that program Transcribe! sounds awesome. Checked it out a bit and seems like something very
useful. I did not know that such a program even existed. And it's only $39 wow.
Thanks for the recommendation! I am still on my hiatus due to my wrist
injury. I hope to get back to the oud soon.
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MattOud
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Just to add another program to the list....
https://29a.ch/timestretch/
This one is free and can change pitch to match the recording as well. I use it all the time!
Cheers,
Matt
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Victoria
Oud Addict
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Location: Odense, Denmark
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Nice, thanks a lot! Will try it first since it is free 
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