John Erlich
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Christian – Jewish Oud Music Trade
Greetings Fellow Oud-Maniacs,
A Coptic Orthodox Christian musician friend of mine once sang me a couple of Coptic hymns (one in Coptic, one in Arabic) which were set to popular
Arabic song melodies. The one in Arabic, if I remember correctly, was about Jacob wrestling with the Angel of G-d, and used the melody “Ala Baladi
Mahbub.”
I was fascinated, since Jews of the Middle East and North Africa, especially in Syria, have a very strong tradition writing Hebrew religious songs to
existing folk and popular Arabic (and Turkish, Persian, Armenian, etc.) melodies.
Unfortunately, my attempts to find recordings of this kind of music have failed. (Sadly, most of the Coptic organizations I e-mailed never responded.
One fellow responded angrily that Copts don’t borrow Arabic melodies because they came first. Another site responded with links to 2 samples that
used synthesizer rather than acoustic instruments.)
I would love to trade music recordings.
I could make (mostly) cassettes (most of the Jewish music of this type is not yet available on CD) of either “professional” recordings or just
home-record myself playing oud and singing some hymns, songs, etc. with recognizable Arabic popular and folk melodies.
I am especially interested in Eastern Christian songs accompanied by oud (or qanoun, violin, ney, etc.) and using recognizable folk or popular
melodies.
If you are interested, please e-mail me at shalomsalaam01@hotmail.com .
Peace,
John
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mikokiko
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Hey John, I am sorry to have replied so late. I myself am Coptic Orthodox and very involved in the church (or at least I try). So I am very familiar
with her rich and beautiful Musical Heritage... Infact I have lately been studying its relation with ancient Egyptian Music, and about its modes, as
there are HUGE CONNECTIONS with the two music. I owuld even dare to say that Coptic Music is the direct descendant of ancient Egyptian Music, which is
very hard to prove.
Anyways, concerning your question, most Coptic Hymns do predate Arabic Music, (at least in Egypt). Although there is a difference between the
traditional repertoire of our Coptic heritage, and the tarateel (Spiritual Songs) taht were composed in Arabic. These are usually song outside
liturgical services, however people have started to incorporate them into the services this past 50 years.
So, it is the latter that has a few songs based on Arabic Melodies. For example, one song I can tell you off the to of my head, is a song for St. Mary
that is usually song at the time of the Coptic Month of Kiahk (December 10th to Jan. 8th), all I can remember is that this song, uses the melodies of
song composed for an Egyptian Masra7aya (Theatrical Performance). Another example is a resurrection song for Easter, called Qama 7aqqan, which is VERY
VERY similar to a traditional Egyptian song called, "Ah, Ya Zein", something like that...Both these songs are sung in the Maqam Higaz (with Upper Gins
Nahawand).
It is very unlikely though that the traditional Coptic Music was based on any Arabic Melodies. Although they were probably very much influenced by
Arabic Music, as the Arabs have dwelt in Egypt for about 1500 years now, and most Copts in Egypt have now embraced Arab culture (although a lot of
Egyptian Arab Culture has been heavily influenced by our Coptic Culture, and vice versa). Although of the apperent Homogenity of Coptic Music
influencing Arabic Music through many dimensions, it has not been proven in any way that it has...
It is also interesting to note that many ehtnomusicologists researching Egyptian Music have suggested that many of the melodies used by the church
this day, were taken from the tunes chanted by the ancient Egyptians, who used them for similar themes. For example, on Good Friday, the sweet and
simple sorrowful hymn of Ghoulghoutha sung in re-living of the Lord Jesus Christ's Burial by St. Nicodemus the Righteous, is said to have taken its
melody from the Mumification Procedure of the Pharoah, who was considered a god.
In the meantime, if you have any more questions about my heritage feel free to post your questions, and I will be more than happy to try to answer
them to the best of my ability...
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sydney
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Coptic Songs/Hymns
Hello John,
I do not remember you asking for any help with this matter.
Did not you know that I am a coptic? You could have asked me man.
Anyways, What types of coptic music are you after? I can even sing you some if you wish  You gonna have to cope with my bad voice while you listen to the oud
I'd be happy to help with anything budd.
Hello Mikokiko, 
welcome to the forum mate ... Thanks for the usefull info you put up for us brother.
You said "there are HUGE CONNECTIONS with the two music. I would even dare to say that Coptic Music is the direct descendant of ancient Egyptian
Music, which is very hard to prove."
Why is it hard to prove that coptic music descended from ancient Egyptian Music? The word COPTIC is actually the same word Egypt. why would the coptic
music be any differentfrom Egyptian music?
The meaning of the word Coptic: The term "Copt"" is derived from the Greek word " Aigyptos meaning Egyptian. The Copts are the native Christians of
Egypt and the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians.
I'd also like to put this following link as a reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copt
Amazing that lots of people take the word "copt" for Christian Egyptian people only ... But this is incorrect. All Egyptians "Christians as well as
Muslims" are called Copts as long as they are all Egyptians.
Medieval Egyptian historians, such as al-Maqrizi, also use the Arabic equivalent of the word to refer to all native Egyptians, whether Christian or
Muslim.
It is right to say that coptic music is the actual Egyptian music.
Kind Regards,
------------------
Emad
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John Erlich
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Thanks Gentlemen!
Wow: It's been over a year and I forgot that I even posted that one!
In Judaism too there are traditional hymns which are not based on any recognizably "borrowed" melodies. However, there is another whole class of
songs, usually called "piyyoutim" (meaning "poems") or "pizmoneem" (meaning "choruses") which are composed to well-known existing popular and folk
Arabic, Turkish, Persian, etc. melodies. The Hebrew religious lyrics are not translations at all of the Arabic original words, but religious poetry
about Jewish religious practices, Messianic Redemption, Kabbalistic mysticism, or simply the love of God. These songs are often sung at religious
events like weddings or circumcisions, rather than actual worship services.
At the following link http://cdbaby.com/cd/zaatarband (click #2) you can hear a sample of what I'm descibing: My band playing a Jewish Hebrew religious song (written to
celebrate a Syrian-Jewish wedding) to the tune of Farid El-Atrache's "Ahbabina Ya 'Ein."
An ethnomusicologist on the East Coast studied this kind of music among Syrian Jews in Brooklyn and wrote a (good) book about it: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/13518.ctl
I'm sure that what is regarded today as "Arabic" cultures outside of Arabia were stongly influenced by the pre-Arab cultures of the region, whether
Coptic, Syriac, Jewish, Kurdish, Berber, etc.
Anyway, I would love to trade recordings of traditional Middle Eastern Jewish for Christian music. I have hundreds of cassettes and a few CDs of
Jewish music from Morocco to Yemem to Iraq, all using traditional instruments (oud, qanoun, ney, violin, derbakke, riqq, etc.). Or, if you want to
hear my "lovely" singing voice, I guess I could record myself singing and playing some of this stuff. ;=)
The only recordings of Eastern Christian music I know of using traditional "takht" instruments are those Sister Marie Keyrouz (the singing Lebanese
Maronite nun): http://www.keyrouz.com/engindex.html
I would love to hear what you know or have, Emad and Mikokiko!
All the best,
John
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sydney
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Nice sample
| Quote: | Originally posted by John Erlich
Thanks Gentlemen!
Wow: It's been over a year and I forgot that I even posted that one! |
You are welcome John.
| Quote: | Originally posted by John Erlich
At the following link http://cdbaby.com/cd/zaatarband (click #2) you can hear a sample of what I'm descibing: My band playing a Jewish Hebrew religious song (written to
celebrate a Syrian-Jewish wedding) to the tune of Farid El-Atrache's "Ahbabina Ya 'Ein." |
This is an amzing example. I do not think that I have come across the same case within the coptic songs. Even though Mikokiko supplied an example. I
do not mean to prove him wrong but I am afraid it's not as strong as yours. - Listen to the file I provided - the coptic song and the other song
refered to by Miko "Ah, Ya Zein" They both have something in common but they are not a note for a note as the case with Farido's song of yours.
| Quote: | | Anyway, I would love to trade recordings of traditional Middle Eastern Jewish for Christian music. I have hundreds of cassettes and a few CDs of
Jewish music from Morocco to Yemem to Iraq, all using traditional instruments (oud, qanoun, ney, violin, derbakke, riqq, etc.). Or, if you want to
hear my "lovely" singing voice, I guess I could record myself singing and playing some of this stuff. ;=) |
I'd love to send you what ever I have and also listen to what you have got. Please e-amil me on emad_philip@hotmail.com to arrange that.
| Quote: | | The only recordings of Eastern Christian music I know of using traditional "takht" instruments are those Sister Marie Keyrouz (the singing Lebanese
Maronite nun): http://www.keyrouz.com/engindex.html |
Have you heard of David ensemble? They are too deep into coptic music and I do have some of their tracks.
check this link http://www.davidensemble.com
Sorry I missed on that post you must have posted it while I was in the shower
Kind Regards,
------------------
Emad
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John Erlich
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Hi Emad,
OK: What's going on here? You are the 3rd Egyptian Coptic man I know with "Philip" in his name. Is there some history I don't know about? 
Thanks for the sample--is that you playing? I think I would have noticed the similarity to "Ah Ya Zein" even if I hadn't been told to expect it!
Jewish pizmonim don't always reproduce the exact melody of the Arabic (or Turkish or Persian) original melody, especially when the melody is used to
sing an old, existing hymn, rather than a newly-composed song. For example, Syrian Jews sing a hymn written in the late 1500s by Israel Najara,
"Ya'ala, Ya'ala" to the melody of "Ya Tira Tiri"; but because the lyrics, the chorus is one measure shorter in the Hebrew version. Sephardic Jews in
the Jerusalem tradition use a abbreviated version (about half) of a Turkish melody (called "Mahur Oriental" on the Istanbul Oriental Ensemble's album,
"The Sultan's Secret Door') to sing an ancient hymn, "Ein Keloheinu" ("There is None Like Our G-d").
I don't remember the David Ensemble being a "takht" type instrumentation, but I'll have to dig out and re-listen to the CD of theirs I have.
Okay Emad...I'll e-mail you.
All the best,
John
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zalzal
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This may have some interest in this topic, it is taken fm an introduction written by french musicologist Christian Poché, and is taken fm the cd by
Simon el Baz an arab-jewish-moroccan-french oudist.
Simon Elbaz - Musical Matrouz
Simon Elbaz strives to revive the spirit of plurilingualism that prevailed du ring the glorious era of al-Andalus when tolerance of others was
actively cultivated, an attitude that transcends time.
During that period there were poems called Muwashahat that were put to music, combining flexible metrics with rich and varied rhyme. These songs
started out in Arabic and could end in Hebrew or Roman, later to become Castillian? This use of severallanguages continued after the fall of Granada
in 1492.
The jewish community of Morocco has a tradition of jousting in poetry called matrouz, the root of which has the same meaning as mûwashah. These
poetic exchanges look place in both the Muslim and jewish communities in informai encounters during which bilingual poets would improvise using both
the Arabic and Hebrew languages. This is the fïrst meaning behind matrouz.
Traditionally the matrouz was recited. Then came the musician. Simon Elbaz decided to offer another dimension to this exercise in poetry, from
recitation to singing, thus uniting poetry and music. The people in the Hadramawt in Southern Yemen have a similar genre called Dân. The poet
improvises a distich and the musician puts it to music. We do not know whether the muwashah was originally recited or sung. Today, it is generally
sung. Simon Elbaz thus takes into account the yole of song and now makes it part of the matrouz poetry. Here the musical context in poetry results in
the fusion of the musician and the actor.
The fundamental characteristic of this approach to the matrouz is the revival and enrichment of an ancestral judeo-Arab tradition. This album is a
first, an innovation that is rich both musically and culturally.
ln a true ecumenical carl, Simon Elbaz acts as a bridge between Jews and Arab. This act of faith is intensified by this first album, "Matrouz ", which
is nothing other than a weaving of words into a fabric that englobesl a variety of cultures. His greatest wish is to compose an even broader mosaic
including Semitic and Indo-European languages.
Simon Elbaz's work in combining languages - mainly Hebrew and Arabic, cultures that are both close and distinct - based on their musicality, follows
the tradition of universal humanists.
Alongside his musical research, Simon Elbaz never forgets that he is also an actor. He alternates recitation and singing, reminding us how close these
two were in the past. He also reminds us of the importance of the voice, a source of diverse volutes, in a world where specialisation has definitively
separated the song from the musician, recitation from the actor.
Simon Elbaz also composed this music, taking inspiration from tradition in an intuitive way. Like the primary aim of the madîh lslamic hymnology or
its equivalent, the piyyût, he strives for immediate effect. His musical aesthetic thus is similar to the piyyutim but its contours bring us
irresistibly into the Arab and Arab-Andalusian universe. Its calls on Oriental maqam and the rhythmic music of the maghreb, in particular from
Morocco. These elements are found from the opening song of this album "Boujaad ", announcing the musical matrouz of this creation.
His ecumenism is felt more clearly in the final song "Alléluia Pluriel ", which could be sung in synagogues, mosques or churches. Hence, this song, a
long complaint that rises slowly becomes a supplication of love, a universal prayer.
Christian Poché
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John Erlich
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Bonjour Zalzal,
I have the Simon Elbaz recording Matrouz and some others from France, particularly Albert Bouhadana, Alain Chekroun, and some others. Although more
traditional in style than anyone recording North African Jewish music in the USA (Eli Melloul, Aaron Benssousan, etc.), the French North African
Jewish recordings seem to me to lack the "tarab" of those made in Israel.
Just my opinion...
Peace,
John
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zalzal
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Except Cheikh Raymond, "grand maître du ma'alouf constantinois".
He played and sang with real arab tarab and do not forget Reinette l'Oranaise, "grande maîtresse du Gharnati tlemcenien", she also played oud and
sang with real arab tarab.
Apart Chekroun and Simon el Baz i do not know the others you cited.
But i think i agree with you. Simon el Baz has a too personnel new style....it is not convincent to me....yes, no tarab.
For this thread which regards liturgical hymns it should be interesting to talk about Alain Chekroun and Taoufic Bestandji who plays songs fm North
African Synagogues, i do not have the cd jacket.
By the way did you see this thread ?http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=3196
This jew left handed oud player fm american ahaba org plays quite arabic well, he is an arab, jew, fm egypt and i like his playing.
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John Erlich
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Bonjour Zalzal,
I love those French-made "Chansons Judeo-Arab" CDs, especially El Kahloui Tounsi. But those are recordings of Arabic music by artists who just
happened to be Jewish, and the songs were recorded in Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia (if I remember correctly), not France.
Another French group I forgot doing North African Jewish music is called "Naguila": http://www.naguila.com/ Like Chekroun and El Baz, Andre Taieb works with Arab (and/or Berber) North African musicians, so the music is pretty
traditional in style. But I have 2 of their CDs, and I feel there is something missing from the music. Tarab?
The singer/oudist in the old thread is Moshe Habusha. His is an Israeli-Iraqi-Jewish hazzan (cantor - prayer leader, kind of like the Jewish
equivilent of a Muslim muezzin) and I have his picture on the wall in my office at work.  His something of a "hero" of mine. You can hear samples at: http://www.israel-music.com/cantor_moshe_chabusha/
The Egyptian-Jewish community in Brooklyn (Ahaba ve Ahba Congregation) has brought him over from Israel several times to perform for their "Seder
Tawhid" ritual. Check out this photograph: http://www.ahaba.org/multimedia/large/zeeli.jpg I am 99% sure that the violinist in the left of the photo is Simon Shaheen (look at the
moustache!), a Palestinian oudist/violinist/composer (originally from the Galilee) who lives in Brooklyn, NY.
Kind of cool how this music brings people together!
Peace,
John
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zalzal
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That's right John Elrich. There are many fantastic north african jews musicians, like, by memory, Rene Perez, Maurice el Medioni and Salim Hilali fm
Algeria, Shaikh el Afreet fm Tunisia, Zahra Fassia fm Maroc, etc etc.
In this link you can hear lot of El Kahlaoui Tounsi (The black tunisian)
http://www.medi1.com/musique/liste_titres.php?t=&chanteur=EL_KA...
On this link you have photos and excerpts for Jacov Bichiri tha djerba oud player during ghriba pilgrimage
http://www.harissa.com/harissatheque/jacobbchiri.htm
I also forgot Naguila, i was going to copy their cd jacket with good comments regarding the matter of this topic. This is made in France.
Thanks for the precisions on the singer/oudist in the other thread. However in the videos showed there, it seems to me that the left handed one is
different fm the singer. Do you know anything more on this left handed oudist ?
You are right the violinist seems to be the vertical-half of Simon Shaheen.
This photo are moroccan jews
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zalzal
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and this is another one, who know may be Zahra el Fassia
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John Erlich
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Great photos--thanks! Do you know of any information or articles about Zahra El Fassia available in English?
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zalzal
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At the bottom
http://www.provincia.venezia.it/levi/ma/index/number8/ciucci/ciucci...
And one excerpt here
http://www.provincia.venezia.it/levi/ma/index/number8/ciucci/7.mp3
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John Erlich
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Thanks!
I found 1 CD of her music for sale: http://www.israel-music.com/zohara_el_fassiya/ I had no idea she lived until 1995.
Peace,
John
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zalzal
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http://www.harissa.com/musique.htm
John Elrich, did you hear the ancient tracks in this page ?? Shaykh el Afreet, Acher Mizrahi etc
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