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Jay
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 5-22-2005
Location: Clemson, SC USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feelin' Good
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Building my first oud...
I decided to go ahead and start my own thread now for my oud project; I posted this picture last night in Jameel's oud-making thread that shows my
starting materials:
I hope you guys will continue to look here to see my progress!
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
Way to go Jay! You've got a great start with your set up. the bench is going to be your best friend. I only have one suggestion, and that's to use a
lighter wood for the bridge. Ouds bridges should be light weight, and the black ones you've seen were probably painted black, rather than ebony.
Walnut or maple are good common medium hardwoods that are light enough for the bridge. It looks like you're stating a collection of scrapwood for
pads and fixtures. I've got 3 or 4 boxes of scrap and I often use pieces that saner people would throw out. Welcome to the oud builder's asylum!
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Thanks Dr. Oud. I do have a small sample piece of walnut somewhere that I think will work as a bridge blank.. Is the bridge weight an issue with the
tone or the structure?
You guessed right about all the scraps laying around; I know my wife would love it if I threw them out and made my workspace neater (she's kind enough
to endure me setting up shop right the middle of our house until I find a better space; the room my bench is in is right next to our bedroom!), but I
keep thinking I might need those pieces later for making jigs and clamping cauls and stuff  .
More to come...
Jay
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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
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Mood: Happy
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Welcome the boards Jay. I am looking forward to following your project through to the end. Looks like you've already got a good haed start too. When
you get going, we'll top this thread too so people can find it easily.
Take care,
Mike
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jay... I do have a small sample piece of walnut somewhere that I think will work as a bridge blank.. Is the bridge
weight an issue with the tone or the structure?
You guessed right about all the scraps laying around; I know my wife would love it if I threw them out and made my workspace neater (she's kind enough
to endure me setting up shop right the middle of our house until I find a better space; the room my bench is in is right next to our bedroom!), but I
keep thinking I might need those pieces later for making jigs and clamping cauls and stuff .
More to come...
Jay |
The bridge material is a weight issue. A heavy bridge dampens the vibration affecting sustain and low frequency response.
Sounds like you got a keeper with your missus, I'd put an exhaust fan in so you don't stink up the house with glue and solvents. I've built in the
kitchen, a bedroom (with all my power tools! - the neighbors though I was nuts, so?). I even did some repair in the back of my truck at a music camp.
It's all good.
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Jay
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 5-22-2005
Location: Clemson, SC USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feelin' Good
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Your explanation about the damping effect makes sense... I have to say it's a little counter-intuitive to me though since I usually associate the the
bass register with big heavy massive things..
I ran across the website of Phil Jones Bass amplifiers a while back which got me thinking more about this point... Whereas most manufacturers use big whomping speakers for
their bass amplifiers, his philosophy is to use the smallest speakers possible because the larger speakers are sluggish and don't respond
very efficiently. His amps are supposed to produce some of the highest quality bass sounds out there! So thinking of it this way, a lighter bridge
does make sense for better bass response.
Thanks for the insight!
Jay
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Jay
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 5-22-2005
Location: Clemson, SC USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feelin' Good
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Oh and Mike- Thanks for the warm welcome!
J
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Amos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 405
Registered: 3-26-2005
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi Jay,
I am excited to see what you are working on...I can't imagine having the skill to build an oud and I am so impressed by those who can take on such a
project. If you need some more advice, you can try calling Mr. Peter Kyvelos, who is, in my opinion, one of the finest oud makers of our time. His
shop, Unique Strings, is in Belmont, Massachussetts, and the number there is 617-489-1254. Peter and his apprentice Christos love to talk about the
oud and are masters of their art. Good luck! Amos
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Jay
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 5-22-2005
Location: Clemson, SC USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feelin' Good
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Thanks for your support, Amos... we'll see if I have the skills to complete this
.. I'd love to talk with Mr. Kyvelos and his apprentice after I get going on the project.
Jay
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Jay
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 5-22-2005
Location: Clemson, SC USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feelin' Good
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Tonight my brother-in-law came to visit and brought several gifts from my mother-in-law in Turkey. She sent a set of pegs, some mizrabs, and
strings:
Çok tesekkürler, Annecim!
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Jay
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 5-22-2005
Location: Clemson, SC USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feelin' Good
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Getting Started...
Hi all,
When I started this thread I planned on beginning construction after a few weeks, but it looks like two whole months have passed now! I guess I'm slow
at getting things started
I've made the profile pattern based on Dr. Oud's drawings:
And began shaping the neck and tail blocks:
I made a mistake on the neck block at first- I ended up rounding the edges over too much with the block plane. Also, maybe I was too eager and didn't
pay close enough attention to the drawings; the axis around which the profile pattern is rotated leaves the neck block about 5 mm from the edge that
mates with the oud face. This allows for the addition of extra material on the side ribs.
I had enough scrap from the block I cut the original peice out of (that's it underneath the neck block in the first picture above) to start fresh, and
below is the result of the second attempt:
The tail block:
And here's the whole assembly fixture, waiting for the glue to dry between the spacer blocks and the spreader bar. I'm doing this "Dr. Oud style"
without a mold; the ribs will held between the neck and tail blocks by fitting each one to the previous one.
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cshrem
Oud Maniac
Posts: 82
Registered: 6-29-2005
Location: NY, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: feeling oudy
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First, Welcome to mikes oud forums, I'm looking foward to watching your oud being built. Good Luck,
Charlie
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Orahim1
Oud Maniac
Posts: 98
Registered: 2-7-2004
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Can't wait to see it finished! I wish I was good with woodworking. There are soooo many things I'd like to create. Did you learn on your own or have
you taken woodshop classes?
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Jay
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 5-22-2005
Location: Clemson, SC USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feelin' Good
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Thanks guys for your encouragement!
Orahim1, I'm just a beginner at woodworking- so I too wish I was good at it . I
haven't taken any classes yet, but I like to read alot about woodworking and I'm learning alot that way. I'm lucky that there are people out there
like Jameel, Dr. Oud, and others who are willing to share their work and knowledge... 
And here's a shoutout to Mike for giving us the opportunity to share our common interests in a positive way... 
J
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Mood: No Mood
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Looking good, Jay. Keep it up!
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Jay
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 5-22-2005
Location: Clemson, SC USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feelin' Good
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Getting it together...
OK!
I resawed the African mahogany for the ribs this week. After looking at the grain I ended up slicing the boards up with a tablesaw so that the grain
is oriented as flat as possible. It was my first time using a tablesaw, so it took more than a few cuts to get the hang of it. The main mistake I made
was trying too hard to keep the boards pushed against the fence. The pressure ended up pushing the board into the side of the blade, causing it to rub
against and burn the wood. In addition, sometimes I stopped the motion of the board mid-cut which also caused burn marks. But so far it looks like the
burn marks come off after a few passes of the plane, and I cut them extra thick so there's plenty of material to remove. Also, I've probably got
enough ribs for three ouds here so I can just throw out the really bad ones.
Oh yeah, since I ended up cutting the boards this way the rib blanks aren't as wide as the specs in Dr. Oud's book. I know there was some discussion
in Jameel's thread about calculating rib dimensions.. Being kind of a math geek I went over alot of the geometry this week and determined that, with
the width of these blanks and the shape of my profile I'll need 17 to 19 ribs as a rough estimate. If I have time I want to write up my calculations
and post it here.. One thing I found is that, once you go above 13 ribs or so, estimating the bowl as an arc instead of a circumscribed polygon
results in negligible errors. More on this later I hope...
Knowing that I'll need a flat reference surface and a flat sanding block for shaping to dimension, I put together these MDF blocks topped with glass
for ultimate flatness:
I wanted to use some heavy-duty float glass for this, but this single-strength window glass was all I could find. But backed with the 3/4" MDF, I
think they will hold up just fine. Later I'll add a bracket to attach the two plates at right angles, something like this:
I'll attach sandpaper to the narrow plate and use this mode for sanding the face joint, etc.
The next thing I need is a bending iron. Following Jameel's lead, I wired up this dimmer switch to a high-watt light bulb:
And I'll make a frame to mount it inside this pipe:
The heat from the light buld should be more than enough to heat the pipe so I can use it as a bending iron to shape the ribs.
...and the final picture I have for this post is an addition to my raw materials list. I recieved some horns today which I bought off eBay. I plan to
split these, flatten them, sand and polish them, and then use them as material for the rosettes. I still haven't found much information on how to work
with horn, so any input from you guys would be much appreciated. Only one is shown in the picture, but I bought ten total so I can experiment. Then
I'll take whatever is left and probably sell it again on eBay to get some of my money back
Happy ouding everyone! I hope to post more soon!
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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
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Way to go Jay! Looks like you are off to a fabulous start. I think once you get going (as you already have), things will just start rolling nicely for
you.
Keep us updated.
Mike
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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Looking good, Jay, some comments:
Using steel pipe for your bending iron may be a problem for the light bulb heat source. Jameel used Aluminum tubing which is a much better heat
distributing material, and not so thick so the low heat light bulb can get the surface up to a bending temperature. You could try the pipe, but if it
doesn't get enough to boil water off the surface, try fabricating one with aluminum. I have an old guitar bending form made from thin sheet metal, so
the light bulb works ok, but I need a 200 watt bulb to get it hot enough.
Horn softens with heat, so you could put the horn in hot water to warm it up, then clamp it flat until it cools, then sand it down.
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Andy
Oud Junkie
Posts: 314
Registered: 10-5-2004
Location: MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: excellent
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Jay, I seem to recall something on a home made bending device a few years ago on MIMF forum http://www.mimf.com/ check the archives for oud. You will find articles about the oud with info by some members of this site. Good luck. I
mounted a light fixture similar to yours to a piece of wood and then like the Dr. Oud I used a 200 watts light bulb for a heat source. I then used 2
right angle bracketts attaching both to a clean can (a large soup can is just the right thickness) using 1/4" self taping screws, the same type used
to keep duct work from coming apart. After centering the can around the light bulb I then screwed the right angle L brackett to the block of wood.
Volia, a very useful bending device for just a few bucks. It works for me. If for some reason it doesn't fire up all I have to do is replace the light
bulb.
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Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mahoor
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Hi, this is my first post here. Well, actually I have been reading mike's forums for about a year (following the oud project, etc). I just want to
mention that the other option to a light bulb is actually using a heat gun in a pipe (a sink pipe). It was mentioned in the luthier's red book, vl 1.
Heatgun is stuck in the pipe and both are placed in a vise at an angle. You can use 2 to get the temprature up fast.
You can also boil the ribs than clamped them to shape in a bending form. I am not sure if boiling is a good thing since the rib has to dry for a
while. Maybe someone with more experience (like dr. Oud) can elaborate on that.
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Jay
Oud Lover
Posts: 23
Registered: 5-22-2005
Location: Clemson, SC USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Feelin' Good
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Thanks for the advice everyone.. I was out of town last week and I haven't started bending yet, but I'll have to see how it goes with the steel pipe.
The soup can is a great idea, Andy (not to mention easy on the wallet ).
Dr. Oud- I'm going to try boiling the horn and clamping it like you said, maybe putting it in the oven for a while if it doesn't flatten with clamping
pressure alone. If anyone is interested, I found Marc Carlson's webpage to be helpful:
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/horn/hornhome.html
Peyman- Welcome to the forums! I also followed them for a long time before deciding to post. Glad to get your input.
For a while I was considering steam bending the ribs... there was a good tip in the last issue of Fine Woodworking where a guy used polyethylene
package tubing film to avoid the need for a steambox. I've got access to steam utilities so I thought this would be an easy way to bend the ribs
quickly. In the end, aside from the issue of drying the ribs, I figured that I'd end up needing a bending iron anyway since I'll have to tweak the
ribs to fit them together on the assembly fixture. So I figured I might as well use the iron for the whole process.
Just curious though, especially with all the real luthiers that frequent this forum, has anyone used steam bending in oud making? I've never seen it
done, and I figure there's got to be a good reason.
Next time I'll have some pics to post too!
Jay
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by Peyman...You can also boil the ribs than clamped them to shape in a bending form. ... |
Boiling will certainly soften the wood, and clamping it to a form will make it bend, but the form would have to be made with a sharper curve than the
final profile as the wood will spring back when the clamps are removed. Also the curve may vary from piece to piece due to variations in the wood
grain. In addition, softer woods like mahogany and some nut woods may shred at the edges if they are too wet. The bending iron serves to fine tune the
curve of each rib to accurately fit the ribs together with no or a minimum of residual stress. Only a small amount of water from a spray bottle is
necessary to soften the harder woods, and some woods can be bent dry (maple for instance).
A heat gun or propane torch will provide a heat source for sure, but the expense and safety risk are higher than a simple light bulb. The light bulb
also spreads the heat more evenly on the surface of the bending iron, aiding the bending process.
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oudmaker
Oud Junkie
Posts: 220
Registered: 12-23-2004
Location: Philadelphia-USA
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Mood: No Mood
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Gentlemen
Don't use any water at all !!!!
Just heat.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Jay,
I found on this last back that Dincer's advice is correct. I didn't soak my walnut ribs at all (mahogany bends about the same), but simply spritzed
them with a spray bottle before bending, which I stopped doing after the first couple ribs. You'll find that even if you soak them, after you get them
on the iron, the water gets heated away pretty quick, and you're left bending a dry rib. I bent most of the ribs for this latest back dry.
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bcearthtones
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 8-19-2005
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Jay,
I hope your oud is going well. Just remember, the first one is a learning experience, the second ond can be perfect 
Here is my bending iron, I use a little water (I'm a beginner too, when I bent dry, I snapped ribs, too much water and you spend a long time at the
iron)
It heats up quick, but not even, this does not pose much of a problem with the narrow staves of the oud. You need ventalation with gas too. If you
go this route, try to fing a 3" diameter pipe with 1/4 walls, or if the pipe is smaller, an oval shape gives more surface area.
Best of Luck
Scott
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bcearthtones
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 8-19-2005
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I usually clamp it to the edge of the workbench, but a vice works too. (it is not balenced to stand on it's own)
Scott
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bcearthtones
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 8-19-2005
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I meant to mention, have you seen Astrid's web site? She uses a clothes inron to bend! Whatever works.
S
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