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bcearthtones
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Lavta info?
Since this is my first post, I'd like to thank Mike for the great forum, it has been my portal to everything oudy for the past year. Also thanks
Jameel, Dincer and Astrid, your photo essays on oud construction were a constant inspiration for me as I built my own oud.
I am an amature instrument builder and I am interested in building a Lavta next, can anyone tell me the scale length?
Is 'dada' the only common tuning?
Thanks,
Scott
P.S. here is a picture of the lute I am building for my wife
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Jameel
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Welcome, Scott!
Let's see some more pics of your work. 
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bcearthtones
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Sure, here is some pictures of my oud
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bcearthtones
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and the face...
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bcearthtones
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and the back..
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kasos
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Hi bcearthtones - I'm in awe of your building skills - very interesting to see the pictures. It's also nice to hear from a fellow Canadian on the
site.
With respect to your question about lavta dimensions, there's a chance I may be able to help you. I've got something at home which was sold to me on
E-bay as a "laouta", but which I think is probably better referred to as a lavta. It's Turkish made, has a longer neck and shallower pear shaped
resonator than an oud, and has nylon tied frets fitted in partial tones, apparently for playing muqam. It also features oud-type nylon wound
strings, rather than metal. If you're interested, I can take any measurements you'd like, and send them back, either as a posting or a U to U -
either is fine for me. I'm eager to help, but, not being a builder myself, it would help if you could use layman's terms for what dimensions you're
looking for - for instance, I'm not really sure exactly what you're looking for when you ask for "scale length" (would it be the same as string
resonating length, the distance from nut to bridge?).
As to alternate tunings, the seller's info on the instrument indicated a tuning in fifths, CGDA, lowest to highest, like a cello or viola (the top
three notes are coursed, and the lowest C is a single string, for a total of seven strings). I and a friend of mine in my home community, who
also ordered the same type of instrument recently, have been playing it in the CGDA tuning, and it seems to work reasonably well, especially in
situations where you can use the open strings. However, when you are playing in the lower positions, the stretch can be pretty wide between the
first and fourth finger, so I can definitely see how a DADA might present advantages in some situations. Anyway, good luck with completing your
instrument, let me know if I can help in any way. Mark in Flin Flon, MB
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Jonathan
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Can you tell us what type of wood that is on the bowl of the oud? It looks great. I see there's a contrasting rib of light wood (maple?). I think
it looks cool like that, but I am wondering why you chose to do that. That one light strip looks like it has a really nice, curly pattern on it.
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bcearthtones
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Can you tell us what type of wood that is on the bowl of the oud? It looks great. I see there's a contrasting rib of light wood (maple?). I think
it looks cool like that, but I am wondering why you chose to do that. That one light strip looks like it has a really nice, curly pattern on it.
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The back is Honduros Mahogany with walnut trim. Your correct, the stripes are curly maple (there are actually 2 there), I was going to put 4 in, to
play with the figured maple a bit. It turned out to be very difficult for me to bend and shape, so I skipped the last 2. The little piece of
blackwood on the tail is cocobolo.
Mark, it sounds like you have what I'm after. The measure ment I need is the vibrating stringlength from the edge of the nut to the bridge, if you
could post that I think it would get me on my way. Is your instrument about 31.5 inces long? About 5 or so deep?
Any chance of seeing a picture?
Thanks,
Scott
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kasos
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Hi Scott
Glad to be able to help you with the measurements. I can confirm that my instrument has the same length and depth as the dimensions you quoted.
It's about 12" wide at the soundboard's widest point. The resonating string length is 25".
It'll take me a little while to get pictures in. Hopefully, I'll be able to manage this in a couple of days.
All the best, Mark
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bcearthtones
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Thank alot for the measurements Mark, I really appreciate that!
Regards,
Scott
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al-Halabi
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I have two Turkish lavtas. One is a replica of an antique lavta, with a vibrating string length of 28 inches and depth of 5.5 inches. The second,
which is more in line with the shorter scale lavtas made today, has a vibrating string length of 23.5 inches and a depth of 6.5 inches.
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bcearthtones
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| Quote: | Originally posted by al-Halabi
I have two Turkish lavtas. One is a replica of an antique lavta, with a vibrating string length of 28 inches and depth of 5.5 inches. The second,
which is more in line with the shorter scale lavtas made today, has a vibrating string length of 23.5 inches and a depth of 6.5 inches.
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Thanks al-Halabi! I'm suprised to see the antique with such a long scale!
I'm curious, is it held like the oud, or do you hold the neck higher to made chords easier?
Regards,
Scott
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al-Halabi
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The older lavtas made a hundred years ago or so had longer scales of around 28 inches. I recently saw one with similar proportions on display in a
museum of musical instruments in Athens (it was made by the famous luthier Manol in Istanbul in the early twentieth century). You can hold the longer
instrument like an oud, even though playing it is a bit more challenging than playing the shorter scale versions common today. Although fretted, the
lavta is not intended or suited for playing chords. The whole tones include frets for a smaller half tone (4 commas), a larger half tone (5 commas),
and two additional microtones (approximately 6.5 commas and 8 commas), in addition to a fret for a full tone interval (9 commas). It gets pretty
crowded on the fingerboard.
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kasos
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I can't say that I've got years of experience with the Lavta, or an extensive sense of tradition that I've inherited, through birth or person to
person contact. However, I did have to work fairly intensively over a six month period to try to integrate the instrument (and its players) into a
performing ensemble. I would have to concur with Al-Halabi - the lavta is much more naturally suited to melodic playing than for chording, and
that's predominantly the way I've been using it. Basically, if you play the same sorts of things on the lavta you would play on an oud, you'll be
OK, both in terms of ease of playing, and in terms of fitting within the tradition, such as I gather it is.
All of that being said, I also do some mandolin playing, and I've experimented with adapting mandolin-style three note chords (by this, I mean chords
using three courses, or two courses and the lower string) on the lavta. As Al-Halabi rightly points out, the microtonal frets do make finding chords
much more complicated than on a guitar or mandolin, but, as long as you allow yourself extra practice, or choose pieces and tempos that give you time
to reposition yourself, it's physically possible to do many of the fingerings.
The real issue is sound quality. A friend of mine who's much handier with such things than me managed to work out four note forms of many chords,
and brought the changes up to performance tempo - then we tried fitting the result into the ensemble's playing. However, as much as I had to
respect my friend's ingenuity and technical prowess, the sound outcome simply wasn't worth the trouble, and we ultimately had him switch to a
different instrument to get the chording in.
I think the source of the trouble is that the lavta's strings are much looser than your typical steel string guitar (many guitarists I have shown the
instrument to describe it as a "rubber" sort of sound), and pitch bend seems to undermine and overtake the harmony if more than three notes are played
at once. It seems to be less of a problem for three note chords, which can still be relatively pleasant to listen to. I find I can, when playing
solo, do fairly satisfactory pseudo-Spanish or Renaissance-lute stylings with these three note forms, especially when interspersed with melodic
playing. I recognize that this begs the question of "why bother doing it on the lavta", when it might be easier or more traditional to do such
material on the classical guitar or Renaissance lute. I don't really have an answer to this (partly due to the fact that I don't yet own either a
classical guitar or Renaissance lute, and am therfore at a disadvantage in making direct comparisons). I just want to note that it seems possible
to do some chording on the lavta, albeit on a limited basis, if you're still interested in going there.
All the best with your building project, Mark
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al-Halabi
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Mark,
You are right, you can definitely produce some pleasant chords on the lavta, but from my experience they are limited to ones that employ primarily
open strings or non-microtonal fingered notes. The instrument was traditionally used in performances of Turkish dance airs (a genre called kocekce),
and the performance technique included rapid strumming on one or more strings to provide a rhythmic-percussive effect. I played the instrument on a
number of songs in concerts of Sephardi music and it provided a deep timbre as well as some strumming possibilities on chords that I think were
effective. With proper transposition and tuning to take advantage of open strings for chords, I have found that the lavta can work for playing some
Renaissance and medieval pieces (for example, Branle Gay by Besard, Lamento di Tristano, La Rotta, and some estampies). It's an interesting instrument
to experiment with, although there is only so much you can force it to do with music for which it is not fully suited.
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kasos
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Dear Al-Halabi,
You are right on in your comments. Thanks for suggesting a few specific examples of pieces that could be adapted for lavta, using the limited
chording which can be practical on that instrument. I have a number of medieval pieces at home (back from my college days - I took part in a
medieval Collegium ensemble), which I'm experimenting with, in much the same way you describe. I'm not sure how embarrassed I should be to admit to
this, but I'm also (partly out of desperation, given the lack of anything better for the time being) experimenting with the oud and lavta as a
replacement for the pipa (the largest of the Chinese lutes, and an apparent cousin of the oud) when attempting to accompany Chinese pieces on the erhu
fiddle I recently acquired (the erhu is much like the arabic rebaba spike fiddle, the erhu's resonator being wooden rather than gourd or coconut,
with a snakeskin resonating parchment). By contrast to the oud, there seems to be a relatively strong tradition of chording on the pipa (check out
Paul's recent posting on this site for more on this, he's got a really neat pipa video there). I suppose that's one of my main motivations in the
chordal direction at the moment - something that might too easily be cured by actually getting a pipa, or maybe a guzheng (chinese zither)... So many
instruments, so little time (and money...)
As an aside, I wonder if you have any suggestions about recordings prominently featuring the lavta? Would you have anything you can post?
Mark
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al-Halabi
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Mark,
As far as I know, there are no recent recordings prominently featuring the lavta. I have been going to Turkey regularly for many years and have bought
a lot of recordings there, but I have not been able to find any featuring the lavta. I have attended concerts in Istanbul and Ankara which included
very fine lavta players. I wish even one of them issued a recording that features the instrument and its special qualities. I have some ensemble
recordings which include the lavta, but the instrument is rather lost in the mix. Tanburi Cemil Bey played the lavta in addition to the tanbur,
kemence, and cello. Traditional Crossroads has issued his recorded pieces from the early 20th century, and they include at least one solo taksim on
the lavta. I have one non-commercial recording in which Ihsan Ozgen, one of Turkey's great musicians, plays a couple of pieces on the lavta.
Unfortunately it's on cassette, so not easy to post.
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kasos
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Dear Al-Halabi
Thanks so much for the leads on recordings. I'll see if I can track down some of the older ones you listed. I'm very jealous of your having the
Ozgen tape - I know he's a pretty major figure, as much for his teaching and ensemble leading as for his playing on several different instruments -
I'm most familiar with his recordings on the kemence, which were my introduction to that instrument...
By the way, just in case you are in a position to do so, would you consider recording and posting some samples of your own playing on the lavtas you
own?
Mark
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bcearthtones
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Thanks for the clearification on chords (and those leads too), I do want to learn it properly, and it is the expressiveness of middle eastern melodies
that drew me to the oud in the first place (I'm coming from a 5 string fretless bass background)
I hear what your saying about so many instruments, so little time, I've got a Renaissance guitar on the drawing board too! I'm very interested in
strings from all over the world (though the middle east has taken all my attention lately). Mark it sounds like your having a lot of fun with
different world music contexts.
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kasos
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Look forward to pictures of your progress on the new Lavta, Scott...By the way, is your wife already a musician, or will the lute you are building be
for her maiden voyage as an instrumentalist?
Mark
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mavrothis
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Hi guys,
Very cool discussion. Have any of you heard of the album "Letter from Istanbul" featuring Derya Turkan and Sokratis Sinopoulos? Sokratis plays a
good bit of beautiful lavta on the album, even some taksim. Lavta is really making a comeback in Greece, along with all the other classical
instruments. 
Let me know if you find this CD, I really enjoy it.
Take care,
mavrothis
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al-Halabi
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Hi Mavrothis,
Thanks for the reference to this album. I was not aware of it, and will definitely look for a copy.
The revival of interest in the traditional instruments in Greece that you mention is something that I was pleased to observe when I visited the
country recently. The 'Oriental music' that for a period was shunned or suppressed for ideological and political reasons is regaining fans and
respectability. Turkey next door helps to provide for Greeks interested in the old shared music a source for instruments, recordings, joint projects,
and a generally healthy reconnection with a legacy they were once part of. This is a positive development. I saw a group performing Christmas songs
outside the Kapnikarea Church in Athens, and it included an oud player. There is hope.
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David Parfitt
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Hi
I see that the album is available from the Golden Horn Records website:
Letter from Istanbul
Best wishes
David
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bcearthtones
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kasos
Look forward to pictures of your progress on the new Lavta, Scott...By the way, is your wife already a musician, or will the lute you are building be
for her maiden voyage as an instrumentalist?
Mark |
She has 12 years of classical piano (she has not played it for a while though). She is looking forward to a fresh instrument to explore.
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bcearthtones
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I forgot to mention, she makes and plays cedar flutes too.
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