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Jonathan
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Just a cool old record label
There are some incredible pictures on old 78 record labels. I don't know if anybody other than me cares about this sort of thing, but I thought I
would share one of my favorites. Parsekian records, out of Hoboken, NJ of all places. Who would have thought something like this would have come out
of Hoboken! Super early. Probably before 1920. Wish the oud was a bit clearer.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
There are some incredible pictures on old 78 record labels. I don't know if anybody other than me cares about this sort of thing, but I thought I
would share one of my favorites. Parsekian records, out of Hoboken, NJ of all places. Who would have thought something like this would have come out
of Hoboken! Super early. Probably before 1920. Wish the oud was a bit clearer. |
Wow, cool, and a lefty, to! Maybe that's where Jimi Hendrix got the idea, huh?
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Jonathan
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I kind of thought that was strange, too, but maybe the image just got reversed when the record was made. Don't know.
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al-Halabi
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Interesting picture. There is, by the way, an inconsistency in the identification of the musical piece: in Turkish it is listed as Hicaz saz semai and
in English as Hicaz pesrev.
As was common in the early recordings of Middle Eastern music, the percussionist's name is not listed on the label, unlike the violin and oud players.
Percussionists were generally regarded as being the lowest in status in a traditional ensemble, below the melody instruments. The vocalist, if there
was one, enjoyed the highest status.
I'm curiouis, in what key are they playing this Hicaz piece?
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Jonathan
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I will dig it up later tonight and let you know. Or, if you prefer, I would be happy to post it.
The artist on this is a bit of a puzzler. I don't know Harry's last name, but I believe this guy was just called Kemani Harry. If anybody else
knows, I would be interested. Who is Bashian? So, there are 2 artists there: Kemani Harry, and some guy named Bashian.
I am in the process of digitizing all of my old 78s--cleaning up the sound with a tiny bit of filtering, and that is about it. I have not gotten to
this one, unfortunately, so if I post it, it may sound a bit rough. Pretty amazing, though, how good these 78s can sound if you play them with the
right stylus. And, the right speed. That last thing might seem basic, but it is not. 78s were often not really 78rpm. The four most common speeds
are 71.29 rpm, 76.59 rpm, 78.26 rpm, and 80 rpm. That's part of the reason some old recordings just don't seem at the right pitch. Even when they
have been re-issued on cd, a lot of the time care was not given to research what speed to play the record at for the remastering. Not a big deal for
the stuff from the 1940s and 1950s, but when you go back to the 1920s and earlier, it is super important.
I wish that there was a bit more done to preserve some of this music. My main interest is in Turkish music performed in America. This was often done
not just by Turks, but Armenians, Greeks, and Jews. It is not that I think the music recorded in America is in any way better, it is just that, for a
lot of reasons, I think it is completely overlooked. So, there are some awesome tracks from the 1910s and 1920s, that have never been reissued, and
probably never will be. (Although Tradtional Crossroads did release a superb cd of Armenians in New York performing Turkish melodies from the
1940s).
Some of these little labels reissued tracks that were originally released in Turkey, but some, including Parsekian, released material that was
recorded in the USA. Parsekian is one of my favorite labels. Another is Margossians.
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adamgood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
My main interest is in Turkish music performed in America. This was often done not just by Turks, but Armenians, Greeks, and Jews. It is not that I
think the music recorded in America is in any way better, it is just that, for a lot of reasons, I think it is completely overlooked.
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Jonathan,
Really interesting that you are into this...
From your experience, are the performances of say, Turkish music performed by Turks, Armenians, Greeks and Jews mostly vocal repertoire? or do you
also have lots of instrumental performances? Saz Semai or peshrev? Judging by the pic you posted, yes but wow, I'm just curious...for some reason it
never occured to me that inst. stuff had been done in the US.
AND...if you can easily post a sound sample...I'd (probably we'd) love to hear!
all the best,
Adam Good
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Andy
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Jonathan,
Leon Janikian, Professor and also one of the countries leading clarinetists in Armenian American circles from Boston's Northeastern Uniniversity, I
believe, probably, is the one who has a tremendous amount of knowledge and one of the biggest collectors of Armenian, Turkish, Arabic, Greek recorded
music played by Armenians. He does have a web site and I am sure he has contact information. BTW, he usually plays with oud master Harry Minassian. I
believe if you have questions Leon would know. I will try to find his site and get back to you. If you have gone to Hartford Kefs then you know who
Leon, he usually plays with Harry Minassian and Roger.
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Jonathan
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Thanks, guys. Andy, I think I actually had some brief email correspondence with Professor Janikian a year or so ago. His website is: http://www.armenianmusicarch.com
There is actually another east coast collector/musician who has thousands of these recordings that I have traded with a bit.
Adam, most of it is folk music with vocals, but there is a small amount of classical instrumental music. I will get around to posting some stuff
soon, I promise.
When I started collecting these, nobody really wanted the 78s. You have to wonder how many were simpy tossed out. And I think some of them were
pressed in just absolutely tiny numbers.
Look at the price on the label, though: $1.00. A heck of a lot of money, when you consider that a lot of adults were making about $3 or $4 a day at
the time. (When Henry Ford offered $5, that was big money).
With oud, unfortunately, a lot of subtleties of the playing seem to get lost on these old recordings. I guess that it is lost not just because the
recording quality wasn't much, but also that musicians must have altered there own style of playing to adapt to the limitations of the recording
equipment.
Give me a couple days--I will get some stuff up there.
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Jonathan
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The kemani player, though, is likely a guy named Harry Hassekian, and the 'ud player Everett Bashian. I have seen a picture of these two at an
Assyrian picnic in MA from 1950--I will try to dig it up. The only problem I have is that the 78 is old. I can't imagine it being too much past 1920
at the latest (I wish I could find out more about this label), and the Assyrian picnic is from 1950. Harry is an older guy in that pic, but, heck,
he doesn't look like a youngster above, either.
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Peyman
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| Quote: | | It is not that I think the music recorded in America is in any way better, it is just that, for a lot of reasons, I think it is completely overlooked.
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I was surprised to read the USA label too. I had noticed that a lot of early recordings from Turkey, Iran, Azerbayjan, were done in Europe (London and
Paris) but it is surprising to see one made in USA. I can't imagine them coming to America for recording purposes only. I am curious to know more
about these guys. Great Find!
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adamgood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Thanks, guys. Andy, I think I actually had some brief email correspondence with Professor Janikian a year or so ago. His website is: http://www.armenianmusicarch.com |
wow what a nice site! I just listened to a Marko Melkon taksim. Is that unreleased on CD? I'd never heard it before. Man his playing was just...so
great, totally.
| Quote: |
There is actually another east coast collector/musician who has thousands of these recordings that I have traded with a bit. |
sounds like Ara?
| Quote: |
Adam, most of it is folk music with vocals, but there is a small amount of classical instrumental music. I will get around to posting some stuff
soon, I promise. |
i would absolutely love to hear some of the classical stuff. I have too many other things to listen to already and now you bring this into the mix.
It's really nice of you to offer! Thank you Jonathan.
| Quote: |
Look at the price on the label, though: $1.00. A heck of a lot of money, when you consider that a lot of adults were making about $3 or $4 a day at
the time. (When Henry Ford offered $5, that was big money). |
funny you mention, I thought the exact same thing. to make a comparison iTunes store sells a single track for $.99 so...well, i suppose on a 78 you
got yourself a "B side" so figure $.50 per track  but still a heck of a lot of
money.
I have to say this, we're incredibly fortunate in the US to have so many collections of Turkish, Armenian and Greek music well preserved in people's
attics. And enthusiastic people like you and Ara seeing the artistic value in it and collecting as much as possible. In Turkey I'm sure I could find
lots of people who could give me the opportunity to hold a vintage Cemil Bey 78 in my hands but i imagine one of the only other places in the world is
the US.
Just chalk it up to certain circumstances...
Like unfortunately I can imagine that tons of Jewish/Klezmer music was lost due to WWII and that's such a shame. Many things made it through and have
been released on CD, and of course some hasn't made it to CD yet.
adam
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Jonathan
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I think, though, Adam, that a lot of this music is endangered as well, for several reasons, all of which are beyond the scope of this board.
That Marko track is otherwise unreleased. I posted a link to it on the Professional sound clips section of this board a while back. There are some
superb Marko tracks that were initially recorded on 78 that still have not been released on cd. I can't figure that one out. When Mike gets back, I
will forward them to him so he can post them if he wants.
You mentioned Jewish/Klezmer music. A related area of interest to me is Turkish music recorded by Jews in the US. My two favorites are Louis Matalon
(an oud player), and Victoria Hazan (A singer who recorded some great sides with Marko backing her on oud). Hazan's stuff was actually re-issued on a
cd of miserable quality a few years back--if a little care was put into it, it would have sounded much better. The oud, as would be expected, is
very, very nice.
Peyman, it is not that these guys came to the US to record, but rather that they were initially from the Ottoman Empire, and at the time of these
recordings, lived in the United States. Some of them were respected musicians in the Ottoman Empire. Others were just trying to preserve their
fading memories of the folk songs they heard in their native land.
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Peyman
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Uh, that makes it clearer. I thought they came here just to record.
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DD
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
I am in the process of digitizing all of my old 78s--cleaning up the sound with a tiny bit of filtering, and that is about it. I have not gotten to
this one, unfortunately, so if I post it, it may sound a bit rough. Pretty amazing, though, how good these 78s can sound if you play them with the
right stylus. And, the right speed. That last thing might seem basic, but it is not. 78s were often not really 78rpm. The four most common speeds
are 71.29 rpm, 76.59 rpm, 78.26 rpm, and 80 rpm. That's part of the reason some old recordings just don't seem at the right pitch. Even when they
have been re-issued on cd, a lot of the time care was not given to research what speed to play the record at for the remastering. Not a big deal for
the stuff from the 1940s and 1950s, but when you go back to the 1920s and earlier, it is super important.
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Hi Jonathan, do you know about Disk Doctor? If you haven't tried it, then like me, you might be astonished at how that particular kind of physical/chemical cleaning clears up
the sound. It's good for all records, including the early shellac, etc., 78s.
I'd been using another system for 20 years when I first got the Disk Doctor kit 3 years ago, and I thought I'd put the new system to a sort of acid
test with 5 abused old Peter, Paul, and Mary albums that I'd bought as a lot for about $1. When I put the first record on after cleaning/treatment, my
jaw dropped: The background was basically SILENT; I actually looked to see that the cue lever had released the cartridge onto the the track, and as I
did that, the voices and guitars were suddenly in the same room with me.
I wonder what can be done about the speed on those early disks? (A record-playback technique that I recall from cartoons of that period is to have a
mouse near the spindle, running at the appropriate speed, but I think that that might only work for people with the technical skills of Betty Boop.)
Of course, the records could be mastered first onto a high-quality tape recorder with pitch control—say, a Nakamichi BX300—if one knew the correct
pitch to key into, and then digitized from that. Those Naks can be obtained in good condition for about 1/8th of their original 1970s price; I got
mine for $200 delivered.
A few thoughts, anyway. Take care.
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adamgood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
I think, though, Adam, that a lot of this music is endangered as well, for several reasons, all of which are beyond the scope of this board.
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hmmmm i am very curious what you are thinking here...
| Quote: | | That Marko track is otherwise unreleased. |
Sounds to be live ya? was it from a released 78? or a sort of field recording from an enthusiast?
| Quote: | | You mentioned Jewish/Klezmer music. A related area of interest to me is Turkish music recorded by Jews in the US. My two favorites are Louis Matalon
(an oud player), and Victoria Hazan (A singer who recorded some great sides with Marko backing her on oud). |
I have a copy of the Victoria Hazan CD via a woman vocalist in NYC i work with sometimes. She used to travel to South Brooklyn to the Sephardic Home
(i think that's what it's called) to visit Victoria Hazan in her elderly age. And learn songs from her. Yes, those are great recordings and yes, they
sound really not so good. AND the text is pretty awful to boot.
The ud player you mention I've never heard of. Was he a New York City guy? wow my knowledge of musicians in the US is really limited! I'd love to hear
more about Jews playing Turkish in America. I'm always on a quest to hear more "Turkish or Greek" related Sephardic recordings.
Speaking of Jews performing Turkish music, and I know you know this guy, I recently acquired the CD reissue of Rabbi Izak Algazi Efendi 78s. WOW!!!
what a singer he was. Beautiful beautiful singing.
Adam
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adamgood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DD
I wonder what can be done about the speed on those early disks? (A record-playback technique that I recall from cartoons of that period is to have a
mouse near the spindle, running at the appropriate speed, but I think that that might only work for people with the technical skills of Betty Boop.)
Of course, the records could be mastered first onto a high-quality tape recorder with pitch control—say, a Nakamichi BX300—if one knew the correct
pitch to key into, and then digitized from that. Those Naks can be obtained in good condition for about 1/8th of their original 1970s price; I got
mine for $200 delivered. |
DD,
Am I such a product of the digital age? Wouldn't it be ok to record the 78 into the computer at the best quality possible and then slow the
ptich/speed of the playback to where it sits comfortably? Seems obvious but you must be aware of something I'm not and so it's better to use an analog
deck? I'm learning so much today.
For the past few days I've been taking some tracks by, let's say, Cemil Bey as released by Traditional Crossroads and slowing it WAY down to where it
feels that a) the playing, phrases and ornaments feel normal and not Chipmunk and b) pitch feels right.
for his Rast taksim on tanbur it came down 1 whole step. I'm amazed at the difference in feeling.
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Jonathan
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Guys, you can by a turntable that has been modified to play at all of the standard "78 rpm" speeds--the four I mentioned above. The company is called
Re-Ko-Cut, and they pretty much modify a Technics turntable, I believe. And, they are not that pricey. I had to switch to that when my mouse
died.
Yeah, Disc Doctor is great. The thing to remember is not to use alcohol on those old 78s, 'cuz it destroys them.
And, there is a computer program you can get called Audio Clean Up Lab. There are bunch of programs and I guess they are all pretty much the same. I
just check to see which "track" is better--the right or the left. A lot of time there is uneven groove wear, so one side might be in incredible shape
while the other side of the track is shot. Then, I make it two track mono. Pretty simple. A roll of a tiny bit off the top to get rid of the hiss,
and I am done. I don't like doing a lot. I would rather live with the crackles than kill off the life of the recording.
Adam, if you want, I could make you a cd of some stuff and send it to you. Or, I could email it to you.
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Jonathan
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I am trying to figure out how to limit the file size so I can post a couple of things. I know I used I Tunes once before to do this. I will figure
it out sooner or later. Ususally I would just send this stuff to Mike. I will figure it out, though.
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SamirCanada
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What model of technics tables do they use? Because now days a sl-1200 mk2 will cost you around 700$ in most stores.
Just wondering thanks
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DD
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| Quote: | Originally posted by adamgood
| Quote: | Originally posted by DD
I wonder what can be done about the speed on those early disks? (A record-playback technique that I recall from cartoons of that period is to have a
mouse near the spindle, running at the appropriate speed, but I think that that might only work for people with the technical skills of Betty Boop.)
Of course, the records could be mastered first onto a high-quality tape recorder with pitch control—say, a Nakamichi BX300—if one knew the correct
pitch to key into, and then digitized from that. Those Naks can be obtained in good condition for about 1/8th of their original 1970s price; I got
mine for $200 delivered. |
DD,
Am I such a product of the digital age? Wouldn't it be ok to record the 78 into the computer at the best quality possible and then slow the
ptich/speed of the playback to where it sits comfortably? Seems obvious but you must be aware of something I'm not and so it's better to use an analog
deck? I'm learning so much today.
For the past few days I've been taking some tracks by, let's say, Cemil Bey as released by Traditional Crossroads and slowing it WAY down to where it
feels that a) the playing, phrases and ornaments feel normal and not Chipmunk and b) pitch feels right.
for his Rast taksim on tanbur it came down 1 whole step. I'm amazed at the difference in feeling. |
Thank you for asking. I was thinking in terms of making new masters of sorts, or archives. Yes, it's the general concensus among audiophiles that
preserving the analog signal as far as possible—ideally all the way up to recording the actual digital disk—will provide the highest quality
playback. In this case, of course, with ancient 78s, highest quality might be the minimum quality we want to go for! Most people are perfectly
astonished at what a Nakamichi tape deck can achieve in that regard, BTW; the old Naks are phenomenal.
Now..I'm not even thinking of anything more compressed than a normal CD; I rarely touch the stuff other than to listen to sound samples of a disk I'm
considering buying. So I think we might have a case here not only of your perfectly understandable and valid perspective's being influenced by the
digital age, but also of my audio-puritanical perspective's being influenced by trying to forget that some of it ever happened.
I enjoyed reading of our experiences with the Cemil Bey tracks (nice use of digital compression IMO ;-)
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Jonathan
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I got my rek-o-kut turntable from esotericsound.com. I got the cheapest one there--less than $300. I think it is a modified Technics, but I could be
wrong.
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DD
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Guys, you can by a turntable that has been modified to play at all of the standard "78 rpm" speeds--the four I mentioned above. The company is called
Re-Ko-Cut, and they pretty much modify a Technics turntable, I believe. I had to switch to that when my mouse died.
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Yeah, as soon as I posted my first reply I thought that most likely people who knew what you knew about "78" RPM had somehow managed a simple TT mod.
I doubt that you needed to go that route, though: As I recall, when you lose one mouse, the nearest ink bottle turns into another one.
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Jonathan
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DD, the thing I have learned about these 78s is that the sound quality can be shockingly good. The main thing is to have the right stylus. Most
people think the sound quality stinks because they have heard these 78s, with their huge grooves, played back with a thin little stylus made for
microgrooves. That little stylus just won't sit in the groove right. It picks up all the surface noise, and not enought of the music. But, the right
stylus changes everything. The fanatics will even have different sizes of stylii for the different era of 78s. I am not that hard core. Or, a
truncated stylus--if the bottom of the groove is worn out, the truncated stylus will sit higher in the groove and, again, give good sound.
I can't figure out how to get anything posted. I might have to wait for Mike to get back.
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Jonathan
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Adam, if you want, send me your email, and I can email you a couple of tracks to compare with that Hazan re-issue you have--you will see it is like
hearing them for the first time.
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Jonathan
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I guess he was a lefty, Dr. Oud, because here is that picture that I was talking about :
George Elbag dumbeg, Kemani Harry Hassekian, and Everett Bashian, with Barsam Deniha on def.
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