billkilpatrick
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fluted ouds
is there anyone on list who plays a fluted oud? if so, do you think it effects the sound in anyway?
- bill
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al-Halabi
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Hi Bill,
Good question. I have not seen an oud with fluted ribs, except in the pictures of Al Tayyar's instruments posted here a couple of weeks ago. Fluted
ribs are really foreign to ouds and all other types of Middle Eastern lutes (tanburs, lavtas, buzuqs, tars, setars, barbats, baglamas, etc.). They are
a feature of European lutes, with no historical presence in the Middle East. The medieval European lutes actually did not have them either; in the
pictorial and iconographic illustrations, medieval lutes appear almost identical to ouds, from which they were directly derived. They usually had five
courses and were played with a plectrum. The Renaissance and Baroque lutes, on the other hand, acquired fluted ribs as well as additional courses,
more elongated bodies, wider necks, more squarish and angled pegboxes, and a technique of plucking the strings with the fingers instead of a plectrum.
It would be interesting to know whether fluted ribs were adopted in Europe for acoustic reasons or were more an aesthetic feature that emerged as the
instrument evolved structurally and physically. I would guess that the shape of the ribs would have at best a minimal effect on the sound, although I
may be wrong. Whatever the effect, fluted ribs on an oud are an affectation that makes the instrument look like a hybrid.
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billkilpatrick
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there's a photo of a stunningly beautiful oud made by luthier matthias wagner on pablo's web site:
http://oudpage.tripod.com/
be careful - pablo's site is ... how shall i say it ... pop-up "rich." there are also photos of instruments with fluted staves on the mandolin.cafe
site.
what you say is interesting. i had assumed that fluted staves were ancient - a possible connection to the really VERY early instruments, the bowls of
which were carved from a single block of wood. i think it's a very attractive feature but much too time consuming and potentially disastrous in the
making to simply be there for aesthetics alone.
there's speculation they were made for better grip - making the bowl less likely to slip out of control while playing - but i'd prefer to think
there's a technical, rather than aesthetic motive behind their use. i just don't know enough about the instrument - or luthery in general - to hazard
an alternative guess.
- bill
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billkilpatrick
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after having posted the above, i read this contribution from luthier alexander batov on the darmouth univ. vihuela site:
However, there is more than just a beauty in the fluted back; it is a very clever way to
produce a rather stiff back with no needs of adding extra thickness to ribs and / or
introducing greater degree of curvature to the back. And this obviously has its impact on the sound ...
makes sense.
batov also suggests that the only way establish whether the sound is improved or not through the use of flutes is to construct two identical
instruments - one with and the other without flutes - and make judgment.
maybe we could pass the hat around and get some sponsorship going for the project ...
- bill
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al-Halabi
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It's interesting that Batov identifies the structural advantages of fluted ribs but is not sure whether they have any acoustic impact. What he says
suggests that fluted ribs may have developed. at least in part, as a way of making stable instruments with shallower bodies. It's plausible that
European lutes evolved in the direction of shallower bodies partly because they were easier to hold and pluck than lutes with deep, rounded bowls. As
oud players we can relate to the initial awkwardness of holding the instrument. It seems to me that in terms of the acoustics the depth of the bowl
probably has significantly more impact on the sound of the instrument than the shape of the ribs.
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LeeVaris
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I have a Foad Jihad oud with fluted ribs - you can see pix here:
http://www.varis.com/Oud/FoadJihad/
There is a sound sample at the top of the page - it works if you have the Quicktime plug-in.
My own take on it is that the "fluting" creates a more rigid back that doesn't absorb the vibrations of the face as much. This particular oud is very
"live" and it practically jumps when you pluck the strings - it almost sounds as if there is an amplifier inside. The bowl is shallower and the fluted
ribs do help with the tendency to slip. Most likely, though, the sound is not affected as strongly by the fluted back as it is by the bracing of the
face.
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billkilpatrick
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what a thing of beauty - you can almost hear it just looking at it.
complimenti - bill
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by billkilpatrick
after having posted the above, i read this contribution from luthier alexander batov on the darmouth univ. vihuela site:
However, there is more than just a beauty in the fluted back; it is a very clever way to
produce a rather stiff back with no needs of adding extra thickness to ribs and / or
introducing greater degree of curvature to the back. And this obviously has its impact on the sound ...
makes sense.
batov also suggests that the only way establish whether the sound is improved or not through the use of flutes is to construct two identical
instruments - one with and the other without flutes - and make judgment.
maybe we could pass the hat around and get some sponsorship going for the project ...
- bill |
Dear Bill check this out.
Barber
Best wishes
Ronny
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by billkilpatrick
is there anyone on list who plays a fluted oud? if so, do you think it effects the sound in anyway?
- bill |
No since the ouds have carved fluted ribs and it's only the outside of the bowl that is fluted.
Best wishes
Ronny
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fledelis
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Hi there,
Being an amateur maker, I just came across this topic (and the forum) when looking for the info on the fluted-rib way of construction on the web. Well
I’d like to make a fluted-rib back on my next lute project (my second lute in fact, this time multi-rib back) or perhaps even oud. The Foad Jihad
oud looks really gorgeous! Thanks for that!
I’m not sure if it’s at all possible to state the exact reasons why fluted back ribs have been introduced (whether it’s in case with lutes, ouds
or vihuelas). Things of esthetical and acoustical matters are sort of mixed up in instruments, difficult to split them, if you know what I mean …
| Quote: |
Dear Bill check this out.
Barber |
I wonder if anybody bothered to check this out? My head was spinning after a few paragraphs; there must be something wrong with that guy!
Anyway during one of my visits to London a couple of years ago I saw and tried Batov's fluted vihuelas at the exhibition in there. I also had a chance
to try one of those by Barber (my friend in America has got one). Well IMHO, Batov's vihuelas are far more superior, both from the point of view of
the craftsmanship and the sound. He's a really great craftsman!
I personally think that makers shouldn’t be so upset knowing that there are better ones around …
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minstrel
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Many higher-end Italian bowlback mandolins have fluted ribs. I've played a fluted mando and non-fluted of the same maker, and they really don't sound
that different (of course every instrument is different). From what I've seen, fluting is mostly asthetic, but its generally a good indication of the
overall quality of the instrument; your chances of finding a crappy instrument -be it mandolin, oud, or whatever- with fluting is pretty slim.
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Monty88
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fluted ribs
I have played Giorgos Xylouris' cretan laouto, the main one he uses, and this was built with fluted ribs. A different instrument I know, but sound
wise it was as if the instrument had a little more bass and a lot less mid-range. Interesting, but I liked it.
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Arto
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This has occasionally been discussed by classical mandolin players, who play bowl back mandolins. The consensus seems to be that fluting as such does
not influence the sound. The appeal is aesthetic; the fluting may make the mandolin easier to hold (less likely to slide of your lap); and usually
fluted ribs are to be found in higher-level instruments (because of the higher work costs) and these often have better woods and maybe better
workmanship.
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jdowning
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Alexander Batov's web site is http://www.vihuelademano.com. Lots of interesting material as well as sound samples of his superb instruments - European of course.
I have never tried it but bending fluted ribs in mahogany is supposed to be difficult - and I can believe that!
The ribs of European lutes can take on a natural shallow fluted shape after removal from the mold especially on lutes with fewer and hence, wider ribs
(and possibly more pronounced where the lute ribs have been slab cut rather than quarter sawn?). I imagine that this may be due to inbuilt stresses
counteracting the longitudinal curve at the edges of the ribs? Likely this does not affect sound production but it is a subtle, attractive feature.
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jdowning
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... and here is an image of that famous portrayal of a lute by Hans Holbein, early 16th C, which shows the natural fluting of the ribs quite well.
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