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Hank Levin
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Jonathan--
No, it is certainly not enough to just wrap the ends; you need to wrap thread around the entire length of the bundle. Use cotton thread, not
polyester, so it doesn't melt. Of course, if you burn the thread it's not as forgiving as the wood, and it will break. If that happens, just keep the
stack intact and wrap more string. Probably coiling the thread around in an 1/8" spiral is fine. No, it won't get in the way. (That's why I use
thread, and not string!)
By the way, Dincer is absolutely right about harder woods being easier to bend. Also, too much water (if you use it at all) will encourage fibers to
come apart in wood with wavy grain. I never let it get sopping wet--just enough to soften the outer fibers into plasticity.
You can get a pretty good selection of purfling from Luthier's Mercantile <www.lmii.com>. They have not only ebony, but dyed wood (not as
brittle as ebony) and black fiber purfling as well. I'd be leery of the black fiber between ribs on an oud. The ebony is REALLY brittle. I don't know
if it would work for this purpose, but it may. If the thickness is OK but the width too great, I've used an exacto knife and straight edge to split
it. (Not as easy as it sounds, but it can be done.) For a beginner, I'd really recommend using the "ebonized" (dyed) black purfling.
Think you'll get a chance to use the brushed water technique I recommended--or is it too late for that? --Hank
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Jonathan
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Hank, I will give it a shot. This project is taking me a long time, but part of the reason for that is that I want to satisfy my own curiosity on a
lot of stuff as I go along.
The maple is all bent, and the dry approach seemed to work as well as any other. And, I have tried just about every approach I could think of.
You are right about water and really figured wood--it tends to make the wood separate and become very difficult to work with. I have to cut some more
lacewood, and then I will start bending that and will give your method a shot.
I appreciate your tips on the purfling--I did not realize that ebony was that brittle. I will let you know what I end up doing on that.
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Jonathan
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Re-sawed the wood. Re-bent the wood. Fixed up the neck block (the contour was off a bit). Now, I am ready to glue in my first rib/stave/whatever
you want to call it. I had planned on using carpenters wood glue rather than hide glue, but now I guess I have to re-think that if I want to put in
the purfling using Dincer's method. The carpenters glue won't hold up to the heat, will it?
Thanks again guys. I'm lost without you.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Re-sawed the wood. Re-bent the wood. Fixed up the neck block (the contour was off a bit). Now, I am ready to glue in my first rib/stave/whatever
you want to call it. I had planned on using carpenters wood glue rather than hide glue, but now I guess I have to re-think that if I want to put in
the purfling using Dincer's method. The carpenters glue won't hold up to the heat, will it?
Thanks again guys. I'm lost without you. |
Yellow carpenter's glue (aliphatic resin) melt temperature is about 150 deg, and does NOT re-bond after melting. Hide glue melts at around 375 deg, and WILL re-bond when it cools,. Hide
glue is mandatory to use the hot iron method of joining. Btw the hot iron method is also used in the video on oud making .
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syrianoud
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Wow Jonathan you just started and looks like you are almost there . Good luck brother ...... Samir, California
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syrianoud
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Jonathan can you post more pictures of the OUD you building . Thanks Samir , California
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Jonathan
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Thanks for the kind words Samir but, really, I have a long way to go. No new pics--I order the hide glue today. Thanks
Thanks Doc O for the advice and info.
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syrianoud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Thanks for the kind words Samir but, really, I have a long way to go. No new pics--I order the hide glue today. Thanks
Thanks Doc O for the advice and info. |
Jonathan , Dec 3rd concert in Santa Barbara , Waels students . Are you going ?
Regards Samir
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Jonathan
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No, Samir, I can't make it, but thanks for letting me know.
OK. 1st rib in place, with the purfling (black/white/black) on each side. Turns out it was really easy to bend, so I just bent it like a rib, and
glued and clamped it in place, and that seems to do the job.
Don't worry--No more pics until the bowl is almost done. I am loving that purfling, though, and think it is going to really add something nice to the
look of the oud.
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Jonathan
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Hard to see, I guess. Here is a closer shot.
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SamirCanada
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Oh! yah!
Thats neat Jonathan.
Look at that wood!!... its really classy looking. I like it a lot and Iam shure you do aswell.
Take Care and good luck on your project
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Jonathan
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So far, with each subsequent rib that I have put in place, the new rib seems to want to "ride up", particularly toward the back of the bowl where the
sharp angle is.
Not much--maybe 1/2 mm, or 1 mm at the most. Is this natural, or am I doing something wrong? It's not that big of a deal to me, because I can always
just sand that portion down at the end, but I am trying to have these ribs under as little tension as possible, and I want to make sure I am doing
this right. I only have 4 ribs set (I don't want to admit how long that took).
Sorry no picture--I just set another rib and I tend to use a lot of tape while it is setting.
Do you guys think it would help if, when sanding the ribs (or planing them, for that matter) it would help to taper the sides in a bit, rather than
make it a 90 degree angle. Perhaps that would help allow for the curvature of the bowl.
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Dr. Oud
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Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
So far, with each subsequent rib that I have put in place, the new rib seems to want to "ride up", particularly toward the back of the bowl where the
sharp angle is.
Not much--maybe 1/2 mm, or 1 mm at the most. Is this natural, or am I doing something wrong? It's not that big of a deal to me, because I can always
just sand that portion down at the end, but I am trying to have these ribs under as little tension as possible, and I want to make sure I am doing
this right. I only have 4 ribs set (I don't want to admit how long that took).
Sorry no picture--I just set another rib and I tend to use a lot of tape while it is setting.
Do you guys think it would help if, when sanding the ribs (or planing them, for that matter) it would help to taper the sides in a bit, rather than
make it a 90 degree angle. Perhaps that would help allow for the curvature of the bowl. |
The edges of the ribs must be at a slight angle, not 90 degrees. The angle is from the center of the bowel to the edge of the rib, so each rib is like
the skin of watermelon cut lengthwise. That is what the sanding table does for you. When you sand the edges on the table with the rib curved to fit
the profile, the edge is automatically cut to the angle that will match the previous rib. If you're not using the sanding table, how are you making
the edges of the ribs flat? Just with the plane? It can be done that way, but takes a lot more skill to get the edges to match up.
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Jonathan
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Doc, I am using a sanding table. I don't know why I didn't realize that--that the angle is not 90 degrees. Seems basic, but somehow I didn't realize
it. Thanks!
I notice that I am getting some tiny bits of glue on the mould--I don't want to have the oud bowl stuck to the mould at the end of this, so I think I
might put masking tape over the mould, put my markings on my masking tape, and then keep going. Or, I guess I could just tape some clear plastic wrap
over the bulkheads.
I know it is probably a sign of not-so-great workmanship, but it's pretty easy to have the glue seep out of the joint and fall on the mould. I am
making a pretty tight fit between the ribs and the mould (the ribs are laying flat right on the bulkheads), so I guess some of that is inevitable.
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Jonathan
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I think I have it figured out. After the rib is mounted in place, I have a habit of taking a few passes at its edge with some sandpaper--a bad habit,
I guess, but I do it just to make sure it is clean, and ready for the purfling. I am not talking about the sandpapering that Dincer was referring to,
but rather sandpapering the rib itself. My guess is that, in so doing, I am flattening out the angle that I created with the sanding block.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Doc, I am using a sanding table. I don't know why I didn't realize that--that the angle is not 90 degrees. Seems basic, but somehow I didn't realize
it. Thanks!
I notice that I am getting some tiny bits of glue on the mould--I don't want to have the oud bowl stuck to the mould at the end of this, so I think I
might put masking tape over the mould, put my markings on my masking tape, and then keep going. Or, I guess I could just tape some clear plastic wrap
over the bulkheads.
I know it is probably a sign of not-so-great workmanship, but it's pretty easy to have the glue seep out of the joint and fall on the mould. I am
making a pretty tight fit between the ribs and the mould (the ribs are laying flat right on the bulkheads), so I guess some of that is inevitable.
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I think if you don't have glue seeping out you don't have enough glue in the joint. It would be less -than-great workmanship to have dry glue joints.
You can easily mask the mold with paraffin or candle wax. Melt it in a pan and brush it on the mold - glue won't stick to it and it won't peel off
like tape or bunch up like masking paper. A light coat will be effective to release the glue and you could still see your mark lines, (unless you melt
a black candle or something). You could also use your surfboard wax. All you California boys gone surfing now? I hear the surf's up.
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Jameel
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All the work you did making the open side of the rib you just attached nice and flat is negated by ever touching it again with anything. You don't
need to clean it up for the gluing. You must fit the next rib to the previous rib. Once the rib is mounted in place, DO NOT touch the open egde. If
you've already done this, you might be able to salvage the rib by taking some very careful and precise passes with a fine, small (6")file making sure
you hold the file totally flat along the edge, don't let it rock at all. This is tricky, but it can be done for very fine tweaking of the joint if
you've done something to the rib already in place. I use clear packing tape on my mould to prevent the ribs from adhering.
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Jameel
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By the way, Jonathan, it's looking great. You've got to post some more pics before the bowl is done. Don't tease us like that. 
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Jameel.
So, seeing this is a learning process, there are two screw-ups to avoid (so far)
1. Don't touch the edge of the rib after you are done with it on the sanding table.
2. Don't glue the oud to the mould! Spent the last hour with a hot blunt knife and some hot hot water freeing it up. I am sure it is still stuck in
areas, but I will have to deal with that little by little. If worse comes to worse, I will disassemble the whole mould at the end.
Let's see how high that number will go. At least 100, I guess.
Thanks for the tips. I just put plastic over the bulkheads--should have read your advice first, Doc.
By the way, I am using Titebond for the bowl. I will use hideglue for the face and braces.
Jameel, I think I am OK--I see no gaps, even when I hold it up to the light.
My regular camera is out of commission--I will put up a pic soon.
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Jonathan
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You know how sometimes you can struggle and struggle with something, and then it suddenly becomes easy?
That hasn't happened.
So, a couple of pics to show you where I am at. The wood is dirty, covered in spots with residual glue. But, still, I love the two woods, and the
purfling, and I think it is going to shine up really nicely at the end.
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Jonathan
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The rib on the far right has been a pain, and I am going to be ripping it off shortly. You can see it is a bit narrower than the others, as well.
That just shows you how much of a struggle it has been--sanding, sanding, sanding, yet for some reason it just didn't fit well. You can see how far
short I am of the guide mark. Even if I were to put the purfling on, it would fall far short.
Here's a pic of the problem area--this kind of goes along with what I was saying earlier about one rib "riding up" on the other. And, I can see light
coming through this one--I spoke too soon on that earlier post.
So what am I doing wrong? Is my curve just off? Or, have you guys ever had similar problems?
There has to be some of that "ride up", it would seem, since essentially we are trying to make a curve out of flat planes of wood.
So, about the fit. I am checking for the light shining through with each rib that I set. So far, so good, except for this most recent one--and, I am
getting rid of that. But, what if I completed the entire bowl, and then saw some light? Do you guys ever have that happen?
I am going to take that rib off--not really sure how, truthfully. I guess with a bit of hot water, and a hot knife, but I don't want to compromise
the other rib joints.
I guess the real art of oud making is learning how to correct for your mistakes. It's easy to have one rib a little too wide in one spot, or too
narrow in the next. I have problems correcting for this on the next rib. Hopefully, it will come with time.
The other possible cause for error is the purfling. The more I think about it, the more I am starting to realize how superior Dincer's approach is on
this matter. It doesn't matter how tightly I glue and tape the purfling to the previous rib--the angle is still going to get screwed up.
But, all in all, I am satisfied with the other ribs. Once it is all sanded down, it will look good.
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syrianoud
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Jonathan keep going man , that is nice i am following all your posts , This oud will sound better than a Nahat . The ribs looks very nice great color
dark and light , I like that. So far looks great.
Best Regards... Samir , California
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Jonathan
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I appreciate the sentiment, but I am not sure it will be better than a $50 tourist oud. But, thanks. I have given up on the quest for perfection on
this one. When I started, I told myself it would all be perfect--all the ribs would end at a point, they would all be the same size, etc. Now, all I
see are the mistakes. Still, I am going to do the best that I possibly can on this one. IT is amazing how much you learn just by doing it, rather
than reading about it.
I don't regret the wood choice. It is exactly the look I like. Still, next time, I think I am going to go for all mahogany, no purfling. Should be
a lot easier to work.
When bending the ribs, does anybody ever try to make them slightly concave along the transverse axis? I am not exactly sure how this would be done,
but it seems like it might be beneficial, particularly at the big angle. Maybe just a small fillet temporarily under the rib at that point when
bending? Just an idea.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan....Here's a pic of the problem area--this kind of goes along with what I was saying earlier about one rib
"riding up" on the other. And, I can see light coming through this one--I spoke too soon on that earlier post.
So what am I doing wrong? Is my curve just off? Or, have you guys ever had similar problems?
There has to be some of that "ride up", it would seem, since essentially we are trying to make a curve out of flat planes of wood.
So, about the fit. I am checking for the light shining through with each rib that I set. So far, so good, except for this most recent one--and, I am
getting rid of that. But, what if I completed the entire bowl, and then saw some light? Do you guys ever have that happen?
...I am going to take that rib off--not really sure how, truthfully. I guess with a bit of hot water, and a hot knife, but I don't want to compromise
the other rib joints.
I guess the real art of oud making is learning how to correct for your mistakes. It's easy to have one rib a little too wide in one spot, or too
narrow in the next. ... |
If I found a gap after I was done I will disassemble it and refit the ribs - I've done it before. Having the ribs all exactly the same width is not
absolutely necessary, but if you make one narrow, the next one should be wider to compensate so that the final top ribs are in the same plane as the
neck and end blocks or slightly higher. If not, the top edge will not be in a plane with the end blocks and you may not be able to align the top edge
and blocks for the face and neck alignment.
Yellow glue will release with dry heat (~140 deg) better than with hot water. Warm water (not hotand sparingly) is used to release hide glue. You
can use a heat gun at low or a hair dryer at high, or a small hot iron. The arts & crafts stores sell a nice little iron like Dincer uses for
about $20. I got one to try his purfling method myself. You can also use a hot knife, but it must be a very thin knife and not too hot. Get a stiff
pallette knife from the Art store. You can use any heat source to warm it up, but not too much so you burn the wood. Do some tests on scrap wood glued
together until you get the temperature right. I'd use a pair of knives so one is heating while the other is de-gluing. Go slow and don't push, let the
heat soften the glue and just seperate the joint, don't try to pry it apart or you can damage the rib edge.
I think the cause of the riding up of the edges is your curve being off. Each rib must be bent to exactly match the curve of the previous rib all
along the entire edge without any pressure. If you think you can bend it into shape while you're gluing, ferget about it! Take the time to make the
edges match as close as you can before you glue the rib on. If you force the ribs together with clamps or something you will introduce residual strss
in the back and it will pop apart later with the slightest bump.
Making an oud involves continuous adjustment to compensate for variations in material and process. Just try to stay calm and keep at it. The
satisfaction at the end will be exhilirating and unlike anything you've experienced.
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Jameel
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Don't get discouraged, Jonathan. Keep at it. If you keep in your mind that this is a learning process, and you try your best, when you succeed you
will be very pleased, when you fail, you won't be dissapointed. Yes, doing is MUCH better than reading. Dincer mentions tapering the purfling too, as
if it were a very narrow rib, but this is not necessarily necessary. There are ouds (especially arabic ouds) with mosaic/marquetry purfling that are
the same width from tail to neck. Tell me in more detail what you mean by "riding up". Are you checking your ribs for flatness after you plane/sand
them? they should rest on a flat surface and contact perfectly from tip to tip. No gaps. You also have to keep in mind that if you are pushing the
previous rib AT ALL to conform to the previous one, the opposite edge is moving too, it's no longer a flat surface. If you do this a little each time,
it will compound very quickly. It's important that the first rib be glued to the blocks with NO twisting, beacause it will spoil the flatness of BOTH
edges. Tell me more about "riding up" and I may be able to help some more. This is why I haven't tried the purfling or alternating woods yet.
Luckily, my backs (all two of them!) have come out even enough that I could have done this, but when using one wood only, you can concentrate on the
fit more, without having to worry about perfect spacing. Like they say, hindsight is 20/20. But you will have gained lots of experience from this, so
keep it up.
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