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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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Jonathan,
Here is my experience. Hope it helps. I hold a straightedge that is as long as the scale length on the face, butting up to the front face of the
bridge, NOT on top the bridge. Between the top surface of the neck and the bottom egde of the straightedge I slip a piece of wood that is the same
thickness as the face where it meets the neck. In essence, this is your fingerboard, just not glued in place yet, it's not tapered, but is the same
thickness as the face. So now you can observe your neck angle. Three conditions are possible.
1. There is a gap under the straightedge beginning at the nut (don't count the dip in the face, that will always show up) and tapering wider towards
the neck joint.
2. The straightedge sits completely flat along the neck (the other end is still on the face right in front of the bridge)
3. The straightedge contacts at the neck joint and the gap tapers wider towards the nut.
Given that string tension will always raise the nut end of the neck (as a rule) I try to shoot for a slight setback, as in condition 3. That way the
neck will either have a lesser setback under tension or will end up flat, either of which will result in good action. A key to getting good,
non-buzzing action (the lowest action possible without buzzing) is to make sure your bridge has enough height to allow some adjustment. The problem
with older ouds is trying to tie the strings low enough, this is accomplsihed with the strings holes being low enough in the bridge. With newer ouds
that have lower action, the bridge needs to be tall enough that the action can be raised a bit by tying the strings higher. Generally, I try for a set
back of a millimeter or two. On my last oud, I had quite a large setback, made a tapered fingerboard to compensate, and I ended up making it too
tapered (larger at the nut end). Everything looked perfect during the build, but after I had it strung up, the action ended up being just right with
the strings tied at their lowest possible position. It played fine, (Simon Shaheen used it this way for that concert) but didn't allow any adjustment.
So I ended up removing the fingerboard (I only glued it at its edges with hide glue, so removal was a snap). By the time I was done, the fingerboard
was the same thickness from one end to the other. It's just one of the idiosyncracies of this instrument. There are so many factors that affect it
(wood species, face thickness/flexibility, neck strength, neck joint strength I imagine) that I found shooting for a slight setback is the best place
to start. Sometimes they just need to be tweaked....I hope this helps
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
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String Action
Jonathan--
I've been following this last subject with great interest. I consider myself pretty good at adjusting actions (you've seen some of my work), but not
really confident enough to give advice. However, I'll share some observations from my own experience:
Turkish ouds generally have a somewhat lower action. Necati Çelik likes about 1.7-1.8 mm. Selim Koytak (his student) likes around 2.5 - 2.8 mm or so.
I'm still experimenting with my own---but generally, 3.0 mm is pretty high for classical Turkish music.
Also, I've found that the string tension barely raises the action on a well-put-together oud. I almost don't compensate for it, unless the oud has a
particularly thin neck. This is as opposed to a bouzouki or tanbur, which has a substantial "whip" from the string tension.
Another interesting thing I've had to cope with in Turkish ouds, especially with low action, is that in very humid weather the super-thin belly--along
with the bridge-- expands and bulges in and the action gets lower--enough so that if the action was at an absolute minimum, it will now buzz.
When the sun comes out for a few hours, the buzz goes away. Nerve wracking.
Having spouted my two cents, I'd really like to hear what Dincer Üsta has to say about setting up the string action on ouds.
Dincer hoca, are you listening?
--Hank Levin
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oudmaker
Oud Junkie
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Hank is rigth.
Under high action the neck tends to come up. But as he said 1.7 to 2mm action you don't expect too much of a movement of the neck because almost all
the forces transmitted to the neck is in compression. Especialy if your angle of the peg box is right. You will have very minimal moment bought at
the nut area and at the neck joint to the belly. So two points : design the angle between the neck and peg box correct and use as less as possible
action which you are comfortable with. Even some good players ( Cinucen was one of them) don't worry about a little buzz they may have but like lower
action.
Regards to all
Dincer
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akram
Oud Junkie
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could past sound sample
thank you akram
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Akram--I will post a sound sample as soon as it is completed.
Thanks, guys for all of your help. Jameel, Hank, Dincer--you have made it all very clear. I understand the points made, although I do not want
buzzing. I think most players do not want buzzing. Personally, it would drive me crazy.
At this point, I am just hoping that the thing does not collapse when I string it up.
I'm seriously thinking of using shellac for the finish instead of the gun oil. I will keep you posted, and pester you with questions when I get
closer to that point. I still plan on having the oud done by June 1--I have some free time at the end of the month.
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carpenter
Oud Junkie
Posts: 248
Registered: 8-30-2005
Location: Eugene OR
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I'm much happier than I thought I would be with the Tru-Oil. I've done my share of shellac and French polish, and I like it where appropriate, but the
oil is sure quick and easy.
Might be the older I get, the less fussy, too...there's that.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/FinishOverview.htm
Here's a link Jonathan, with very detailed instructions for both french polish and Tru-oil. At the moment I'm finishing Mike's Hifnawi with Tru-oil. I
can't stress enough how easy it is to apply and get an excellent result. Almost zero learning curve. I have limited (ok, none) experience with French
polish, but it does take some skill. The Tru-oil can be applied as thinly or thickly as you want for a more natural look, or a more film-like gloss.
It's just such a great finish (and so easily repairable) that I'm not sure I'll ever try French polish. My first oud I put a relatively light Tru-oil
application, since I wanted a more natural look, but I think that going to perhaps a dozen coats or so would be a bit more durable and shiny, if
that's the look you're after. If I were you, for your first oud I'd try the Tru-oil. You'll get tons of satisfaction when you wipe on that first coat!
And you won't have to worry about mixing fresh shellac, alcohol, oil, pumice, special fabrics, etc. You can start applying Tru-oil with a old t-shirt
and a bottle of the stuff (which you can get at dozens of places--Wal-Mart is my supplier--or Gander Mountain, or pretty much any gun shop). Make sure
you sand very thouroughly, this is the key to getting a good Tru-oil finish. Get 'er going Jonathan
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
Posts: 90
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Jonathan,
About the finish, my two cents worth:
Oils (or any finish) that absorbs into the wood and doesn't harden will strip the resonance from that part like a wet washrag. The finish on the back
doesn't matter that much otherwise---but it should dry hard.
I have a preference for shellac, ending with French polish, but it takes some time to build up the skill. It's fun, though, and the traditional finish
on the old great ouds. You can get materials from Luthiers Mercantile, and I think they have some good instructional stuff on their website. (However,
the "good" instructional stuff I've seen makes it a LOT more complicated than what I find necessary.)
Please, don't put any finish whatever on the face---especially an oil!
Good luck!
Hank
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
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I wrote my previous post while Jameel was posting his, so I missed it.
I don't know anything about tru-oil, but it sounds like a tung oil preparation. If so, it's basically a varnish, applied with a rag. Great for
cabinets. That's what I used to finish the book shelves and computer hutch in my office. I'd be leery of it on an oud, as I don't think it would be
brittle enough to reflect sound.
BTW, one of the things I love about French polish is that you can easily repair it with an additional application.
I think Mustafa uses some kind of really tough automotive synthetic---maybe water-based---that he sands down and buffs out. I'll know more about it
when I visit next time. But I'll tell you, the buffing operation is done with a big stationary wheel buffer, and it's hair-raising! Looks like you'd
have to be willing to lose a couple of ouds learning to do it. 
Hank
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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Hank's right. Shellac is #1. But Tru oil actually does dry hard. Hard enough to rub out actually. I think a lot of people who have never used it get
turned off because they hear the word "oil". Understandable. I can't imagine putting linseed oil, or something like Watco on my oud. But thin rubbed
(the actual action of application is much like fp) coats dry hard enough to scuff sand within an hour or so. You can just as easily repair Tru Oil,
just apply another coat. You should give it a try, Hank. If you do, I promise to learn french polish!  How much do you think the finish on the back affects sound? I can't imagine so much, unless it's some hideous thick
plastic coating. I'm not a fan of the nitro-type or catalyzed finishes. When I pick up the oud, I want to know I'm holding wood, not wood encased in a
plasticy shell. I can't imagine introducing an oud I made to a spinning buffer. I think I would have a heart attack just thinking about it! A well
excecuted Tru oil finish is quite popular among classical guitar makers, or so I've read. There's actually an expert classical maker near me, John
Dick. I wonder if he has any tips that would transfer to oud making?
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
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Jameel,
Intriguing to me that you say it gets hard enough to scuff in an hour. Yes, anything like Watco, linseed oil, or even tung oil varnish is not really
hard enough for a string instrument. I wonder what Tru-oil's composition is. I also wonder if they sell it at Luthier's Mercantile. Guess it's time to
check outside the box---or for the old dog to see if there's a new trick to learn. --Hank
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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Hank,
Yes, they are big proponents of it at Luthier's Mercantile. Here is a direct link for their instruction for it. http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/TruOil.htm You can indeed scuff sand in an hour with a thin coat, and the people at LMI advise very thin coats. As for
its composition, maybe you could find it at the MIMF Library. I haven't been able to find out.
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oudipoet
Oud Junkie
Posts: 190
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Location: los angeles
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i am sure it s gonna be a very nice oud i can not wait to see its played and hear the sound of it i hope u will finish it soon Jonathan.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
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Thanks, oudipoet. At the very least, I think I can get it to look decent. I have no idea if it will sound good. For all I know, the thing may fall
apart when it is strung up. Looking at other pictures, I think I may have put those bottom two braces a bit too close together. Oh, well. It gives
the bridge good support, I suppose. I hope that the placement does not kill off any of the sound. The oud does seem fairly resonant when I tap on
the face lightly. And, although I made about a million mistakes on the bowl, the face turned out OK, and that is the important part. And there is a
good strong neck/body joint.
I just want to be able to play it and not have it fall apart on me.
I worry about the braces. They seemed to fit well, but it is tough to know if all of the braces have made a good contact with the bowl at this point.
I think they have, but it is impossible for me to know for sure.
Thanks for the incredible links.
The good thing about the shellac, I guess, is that if I screw it up, I can always remove it and go ahead and use the Tru-oil.
I have been making a small marquetry tray with my scraps from this project--I think I will go ahead and shellac that, and see if I can get a decent
result. If it looks good, I will try it on the oud. If not, I will go ahead with the Tru Oil. I will also try using the TruOil on some scraps to
compare.
I do like a shiny finish, and I think I might be better able to achieve that with the shellac. The problem, I suppose, is that the shiny finish
might make my mistakes a bit more noticable.
Don't you guys think, though, that shellac might be more protective of the wood than the TruOil?
If I use wood for the mizraplek, should I coat this, as well, with Tru Oil (or shellac)? I assume that I should put something on it, rather than
leave it as raw wood. I purchased an imitation Tortoise (tor-tis) for the mizraplek, but it might be a bit loud. I will post some pics of it, and of
the possible wood veneer, tomorrow, and get your thoughts.
What's the Arabic term for mizraplek?
This seems like a petty question, but when an oud label is dated, does the luthier generally put down the date that he put the face on the
instrument?
I have a week to devote to this project at the end of the month, and I want to have everything ready to go.
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carpenter
Oud Junkie
Posts: 248
Registered: 8-30-2005
Location: Eugene OR
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My opinion is that Tru-oil is much more protective than shellac. Definitely harder, and I guess acteone would dent it - maybe...my dad used Tru-Oil on
many gunstocks, and they take a beating in the field. Tuff stuff. Like I said, I'm happy with it. And it's pretty easy to touch up afterwards.
Fiddles still get oil varnish, of course. Gotta draw the line somewhere.
The trouble might be hearing "oil" and thinking "soft."
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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I think you are right. That term "oil" throws me off. I have absolutely no experience with it (or shellac either, for that matter), so I will pick
some up, and make some trials on scrap.
A few choices for the mizraplek. The first is a lacewood veneer, the second mahogany veneer, and the third is Tor-tis (imitation tortoise). I'm
leaning toward the third, although I sense that I may have problems cutting it, even if I do warm it up a bit. I swabbed a bit of mineral spirits on
the wood for this shot. I think the lacewood is too light--aesthetically, there ought to be more of a contrast between the mizraplek and the face.
If I use the veneer, I can coat it, can't I? I know nothing is going on the face itself, but I can treat the mizraplek, right?
Thanks!
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carpenter
Oud Junkie
Posts: 248
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Speaking of shiny, don't forget to get down to an auto body finish supply shop - polishing/buffing compounds that work great on the Tru-Oil: by hand,
no machines required. Also really fine wet-or-dry sandpapers, 1500 grit, 2000; probably "and up." Lo-tack masking tapes, a world of wonders.
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
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Jonathan,
My vote is for the imitation tortoise. You may also use black wood dye on the wood veneers. I would definately put finish on the wood veneers,
especially if you dye them, to insure that they do not bleed. I kind of like the small oval mizraplekler like Manol and Mustafa use, preferred by
classical oudis, rather than the huge ones that cabaret musicians use to keep from ripping up the face.
The only thing I'd stay away from is that pearlescent plastic that we used to call (when I was building & repairing instruments in NY) "mother of
toilet seat."
Hank
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Greg
Administrator
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Jonathan,
If you decide to go with the Tor-tis, heat it up more than a bit. Put it in a bowl of very hot water and re-immerse it several times, if you have to,
during the cutting process.
If you don't heat it enough, it will chip and split. But if kept warm and floppy during the cutting process, it will cut very easily with scissors. I
would suggest you aim to cut wide of the finished line and finish with sandpaper, when it has regained its stiffness.
I could never build an oud like you, but I have cut a lot of rishas with this stuff.
Regards,
Greg
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Greg--If I can build it, trust me, anybody can.
I love having pictures of the oud as it has developed, but I wish I took pictures of my hands during the same time period. Cuts, bruises. . . I am
surprised I still have all of my fingers.
I am no woodworker!
I have tried to cut rishas with the stuff, too, and had a problem with cracking/splitting. I guess I wasn't heating it up enough.
Hank, I agree with you. I like a small mizraplek. Intuitively, I would have to think that the smaller the mizraplek, the less dampening on the
sound. I will probably go with the Manol oval. I have toyed with the idea of something just a bit larger, though, so that the tortis can
approximate the outer purfling lines on the small rosettes. I think it looks really nice when the mizraplek perfectly matches these lines--maybe
staying just outside of them by a mm or two.
We will see. The tortis is not large, however (this stuff is expensive!), so there is no way the mizraplek is going to be very large.
I have an oud with the mother of toilet seat--looks wretched, and I think that is why I picked it up pretty cheap. But it sounds really good. What
were they thinking?
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SamirCanada
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Good stuff Jonathan.
The name for the mizraplek in arabic is "Raqma"
If you decide to go with the wood veneer tainted or not. I would definetly coat it with a hard finish. I think it looks much better for one but it
also prevents the wood veneer from cracking and lifting up from the face. Dont finish the face though obviously.
The Raqma on my shehata isnt finished and I do find it fragile a little bit. I wish I would have had it finished. I really doubt it would strongly
affect the sound.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Are you guys pretreating the wood with any sort of pore filler before the TruOil, or just putting it directly on the wood? I talked to lmii, and I
got a pretty vague answer--that you can pretreat the wood, or you can skip that step.
The bowl was the maple and lacewood--I am not that worried about those, although perhaps I should be. The neck, though, is largely mahogany (with an
ebony stringer and 2 rosewood "stringers" -not through the neck block), and this seems much more porous. Although I have not done any fine sanding on
it, I think that, because of the grain of the wood, there will be an area on each side of the neck that might be a bit difficult to make smooth.
I ordered the TruOil and the micro-filler--should be here in the next day or two. I will test it all on scraps, and post some pics.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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I do the first coat using Tru oil. Although you could put a sealer coat of shellac if you want. Zinsser Seal Coat is a fine product for this. It
might be a good idea since Tru oil and some rosewoods dont get along, the truoil will stay sticky for a while before it dries, although it hasn't done
it for me. Follow the lmii instructions and you won't be dissapointed. What is the micro-filler? Is it clear? colored? For the open pore mahogany I
assume.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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I haven't gotten the microfiller yet--I ordered it. I will give you details when I get it.
And, here, too, maybe I ought to make some tests with and without the stuff.
I am just going by what it says in the blurb on their website:
http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Finishes...
Not sure if I am going to need it or not, yet.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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You guys are so right about the TruOil. I was playing around with it, and treated a small tray that I made out of my oud scraps. I put on 3 coats of
the Sealer and Filler, and 2 coats of the Tru Oil finish. Unbelievable.
Easy to apply. Can be brought up to a high gloss like a French Polish--to my untrained eyes, it looks exactly like it if I don't sand it down with
the 000 steel wool at the end. And feels like a nice hard surface. I am not going to even bother with the shellac, although I bought a small can of
it.
Thanks! Going to get back to work on the oud in 1 week, and hopefully finish it by June 1
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