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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
Posts: 90
Registered: 2-7-2004
Location: Medford, Oregon
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>>I am not going to even bother with the shellac, although I bought a small can of it.<<
Just as well you didn't try to use it---you would not be happy with the results of French polishing shellac out of a can. It may never dry properly.
French polish needs to dry rather instantly, in just a few seconds, to work. When you get around to trying French polish (really, it's not so
hard---maybe no harder than the other stuff when you get the knack) get some dry flake shellac and dissolve it in denatured alcohol. It needs to be
really thin.
When you get around to trying it, don't mix the oil into it, and don't use oil at all until the wood is completely filled with a couple of coats. Then
the pad will begin to stick, and you will need the oil. If the oil gets into the wood, it will look shiny and then a few hours later it will be
dull---and that will go on coat after coat.
Best,
Hank
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
You guys are so right about the TruOil. I was playing around with it, and treated a small tray that I made out of my oud scraps. I put on 3 coats of
the Sealer and Filler, and 2 coats of the Tru Oil finish. Unbelievable.
Easy to apply. Can be brought up to a high gloss like a French Polish--to my untrained eyes, it looks exactly like it if I don't sand it down with
the 000 steel wool at the end. And feels like a nice hard surface. I am not going to even bother with the shellac, although I bought a small can of
it.
Thanks! Going to get back to work on the oud in 1 week, and hopefully finish it by June 1 |
I told you it was great stuff!  Glad you like it. What did you
decide about the pore filler?
You'll want to rub it out after your last coat, and the level of gloss is dependant on how far you go with the rubbing. I just rubbed out some wood
finished with tru-oil (after 1 week cure) with 0000 (don't ever use 000) steel wool (I use Liberon brand--no oil in it, and higher quality than
hardware store variety) and Wool Wax, a rubbing lubricant. First time I tried the lubricant, and it gave great results. Very even abrasion, and a
sheen that's between satin and semi-gloss, and let me tell you, it feels like silk. Just very smooth and silky to the touch. I never cared much for
the high-gloss wet look on ouds, but if you're going for that, Tru-oil can take you there. This thread is a good read:
http://www.mimf.com/library/polishing_truoil.htm
Hank's right about the shellac. You've got to use fresh made shellac, although Frank Ford says you can fp with Zinsser Seal Coat. Never tried it
myself though.
You might consider using Micro-mesh to rub out instead of steel wool. I've heard some great things about it (they recommend it at lmii and tons of
luthiers use it). I also just discovered the people that make Micro Mesh are only about 45 miles from me.
Don't forget to post some pics after the first couple coats go on.  We're
waiting.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
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Well, I probably did it wrong, then. I used 600 grit paper between the coats of filler, and 000 steel wool after the first coat of truoil. I will
use the 0000 after this coat, although the 000 did seem to work well. This was not the oud, of course, so good to learn now.
Thanks again, guys, for everything.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
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While were talking about finishing ouds here and if you dont mind Jonathan... I have a few questions about finishing aswell and we might learn some
usefull stuff. I have created an emergency situation for my shehata that is finished with French polish.
I was changing the strings today and I noticed that there was the oily residue left over from my fingers on the fingerboard. I dont like the look of
this and since I tought for shure the fingerboard isnt finished I rubbed on some friction alchool on it with a small cloth. To my suprise, I noticed
that the cloth became black with something... Dirt? finish? and that the whole fingerboard was now a bit lighter in color and looks bare. I think
there might have been somekind of oil on it to protect it. Should I refinish the fingerboard with somekind of product? advice please? the fingerboard
is ebony by the way.
Second more serious problem. I found out that alchool and french polish dont exactly mix... I had a oud with a synthetic finish before and when I
brushed on some alchool on the bowl it would bring it back to a shine. I tried the same on a french polish and thank god I just tested a small area
first but I found that it takes off the finish. What can I do to clean a french polish bowl from fingerprint marks etc.. to make it a bit more
glossy?
Thanks in advance to our experts on the boards.
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sydney
Oud Junkie
Posts: 579
Registered: 12-9-2003
Location: Down Under
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I use a tiny touch of beeswax. I wonder what the experts will say?
Kind Regards,
------------------
Emad
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AGAPANTHOS
Oud Addict
Posts: 35
Registered: 2-23-2006
Location: CRETE-GREECE
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According to the tradition the fingerboards have to stay free from any kind of polishing materials of any type.
The only treatment of the fingerboard which always contains somekind of stiff, hard and very dense tropical wood, is to clean the whole surface of it
by the aid of very thin steel wool and then to apply from time to time one or two drops of pure almond oil with a soft cotton fabric through a
technique which resamples with the technique used in French polishing.
This is it!
As far as concern the alchool and the french polishing varnishes. We must have in mind that the pure alchool (95o) is the best solvent of french
polishing mixt ups.If some body uses too much of it in order to retouch or finish the process of polishing of the bowl, which it might be from an open
or a semi porous hardwood ,it is expected to take off the finish. You can have good results if you use the same french polishing varnish diluted with
pure alchool in an analogy 1:1 or 1:2 or something like this.
Regards
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Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
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In reply to Samir,
There is a fingerboard dye you can use (lmii.com). It's used to uniformaly blacken ebony fingerboards that have streaks of different color. It's
alcohol soluble.
hope this helps.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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Mood: better than before
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Peyman
In reply to Samir,
There is a fingerboard dye you can use (lmii.com). It's used to uniformaly blacken ebony fingerboards that have streaks of different color. It's
alcohol soluble.
hope this helps. |
I have used India ink, carefully now, don't drop it on the face!
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
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Thanks for your awnsers guys.
I ended up adding some pure lemon oil to the fingerboard and to the pickgard wich was left dry.
I did research on the web about violin and guitar fingerbords witch is essentialy the same. And thats exactly what it needed. The alchool whiped off
the oil deeply so the wood was left bare. The pickgard wich is also made of ebony was dry and starting to lift and develop cracks. Because those thin
wooden parts are dry and keep drying so the part that is covered and glued down is protected so you need to keep it oiled. They recomend once a year
doing that.
Thanks for the advice
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
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I am in that week long stretch--hope to finish the oud before the first of the month.
I am going to try to post some pics, but I switched over to another computer, and I first have to figure out how to reduce file size, then I will get
some up.
I made the mizraplek out of the Tortis. Looks great, but--
I glued it on to the face with the hide glue, and it made a very very very weak bond. So, I removed it. What should I use. Regular carpenters glue?
Tite bond? I guess I should probably remove the old hide glue off of the face, but I would almost hope I could leave it there rather than cause any
damage trying to remove it.
Thanks, guys, for any help you can give me.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
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Or, perhaps if I roughed up the back of the tortis with some sand paper, the hide glue would have worked.
?
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
Posts: 90
Registered: 2-7-2004
Location: Medford, Oregon
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Jonathan,
Time to decide what the "tortis" is made out of. Sounds like some kind of plastic. Is it acrylic? If so, you could use Duco or model airplane
cement.
Yes, I'd carefully scrape off any hide glue that's built up on the surface as a "glaze" before you re-glue it. I wouldn't worry about the glue that's
absorbed into the wood fibers.
If you rough up the underside of the mizraplek with medium sandpaper, there's a good chance that yellow carpenter's glue (alaphatic resin, not hide
glue) will hold it.
If it's a soft plastic like nylon or vinyl (very unlikely), all bets are off. The only thing that might hold it would be contact cement---which is not
at all good for the sound.
You can always contact the supplier and ask for a recommendation.
Whatever you do, mask the damn thing very carefully with masking tape. This will save you much grief because the glue will ooze out or bleed whatever
you do. Run your thumb over the adhesive side of the tape before you stick it, to keep it from sticking so hard that it lifts the fibers when you pull
it off. It will then be relatively easy to scrape of the few tiny spots where it bleeds out with an x-acto knife.
And let it dry a LONG time---there won't be any evaporation thru the mizraplek.
Good luck! --Hank
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
Posts: 90
Registered: 2-7-2004
Location: Medford, Oregon
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Yes, the hide glue will hold the plastic if it's roughed up---for a while. I think you can do better.
--Hank
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Thanks, Hank. Carpenter's glue (TiteBond) did the trick after I roughed up the surface a bit. I will try to get some pics up shortly.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
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Dang.
I got a couple of small spots of tru-oil on the face. Nothing huge, but enough to drive me crazy. Any way of getting it off, or am I just going to
have to live with it?
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Well.....
Doesn't Richard's book mention masking the face? If you still have coats of finish to apply, it wouldn't be a bad idea. I use wax paper and low-tack
(blue) masking tape.
As for getting it off the face, you're pretty-much stuck with it. Spruce is very porous, and that finish is IN the wood. Sanding it out is the only
way. One thing you might consider is applying one thin coat only to the face. It would even out the color, and not really affect the sound with just
this one coat. You could then burnish the face with 0000 steel wool to even the sheen (if it even had any). What grit did you sand the face to by the
way?
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sydney
Oud Junkie
Posts: 579
Registered: 12-9-2003
Location: Down Under
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Mood: Bastanikar
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Looking very good Jonathan
I can not wait to listen to it's sound and also the culture that comes from it.
Good on you Bro.
Best wishes
Emad
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
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Yes, yes, I know--Richard's book mentions masking the face. My screw up.
Thanks, guys.
Jameel, I used just about every sand paper on the face, starting at the beginning with 220, and getting progressively finer, until I was at 000 or
0000 steel wool.
Paint thinner wouldn't work, would it?
I have to get some pics up. I am on a borrowed computer, and have to figure out how to reduce the file size. If not, it is going to have to wait
until Tuesday.
Aesthetically, I am pleased with how things are shaping up. Sound wise, I have no idea yet.
I have 6 coats on the oud--three of the Tru Oil sealer/filler, and 3 of the Tru Oil finish. To me, it is indistinguishable from French Polish. The
finish gets some depth to it, which I like. I have done nothing with the last coat yet. Not sure whether or not to use the steel wool on this last
coat. I might just leave it like this.
And yes, I know that I am not supposed to coat the bowl until a week or so after I have strung up the oud, but, I have a family get-together on
Monday, and I want to show it off a bit.
The oud really is done, I just need to work on the beard a bit--it proved somehow a bit more difficult than I thought. I have to reset it. The thing
about the oud is that it is just so tough to clamp. Next oud, I think I am going to get some go bars.
Thanks again, to both of you.
Now, I have to get back to this computer and reduce some file sizes.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Jameel, I used just about every sand paper on the face, starting at the beginning with 220, and getting progressively finer, until I was at 000 or
0000 steel wool.
Paint thinner wouldn't work, would it?
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So the face is nice and smooth, that's good. Paint thinner will only remove wet finish. And even on spruce, you'd be hard pressed to get it back to
pristine white. It's gonna get marked up anyway, bud. My oud already has darkened where you play up the fingerboard. Nature of the beast. Show us some
pics, man. Tough to advise without pics...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
And yes, I know that I am not supposed to coat the bowl until a week or so after I have strung up the oud, but, I have a family get-together on
Monday, and I want to show it off a bit.
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I finish the oud first, then string it up. I know Richard waits, but I hate stringing them up twice!!
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
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Thanks Jameel. The stain is up by the treble side of the beard--it will just look like wear, with time.
I'm trying for the pics, man. If anybody knows of a cheap (or free) download for pcs so I can reduce file size, let me know.
I put of one string. Nice volume. Unbelievably satisfying to hear that first note.
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
Posts: 90
Registered: 2-7-2004
Location: Medford, Oregon
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Jonathan--
Congratulations on finishing the instrument!
I don't understand---what's the thinking behind not finishing the bowl until a week after stringing? I know that if the pegs are fit before the head
is finished, it's certainly a pain to keep tiny amounts finish from seeping into the peg holes and thus making the pegs sticky and creaky. The holes
must be drilled first, of course; but the final reaming and fitting must be after the head is finished.
As for the finish stain on the face, have you tried acetone? I'd be surprised if that does not pick up the finish out of the wood, and it won't hurt
the wood.
If acetone does not work, I'd try a gel type paint remover. I used to use Jasco. I don't know if it's still available, but I'm sure an equivalent is.
Hopefully, you just paint it on over the finish and leave it sit for 15 minutes or so. If the day is warm, spreading a bit of saran wrap over the
applied gel will keep it wet and active. It will curdle the finish, which can then be gently and carefully be scraped off with a blade of some sort.
You'll want to follow up with a rag moistened with acetone, then sand to match the surrounding finish. The instructions may say to use water to
deactivate the remover---follow the directions. If necessary, use it on a small cloth and dry it off ASAP. When you're done, you may want to try to
even the face's color out with acetone.
Whatever you use to remove that spot, work very carefully and don't get it on the finished part---it will certainly mess up the finish. I'd mask any
finished sections around the area just in case a drop splashes!
I would save using a "wash" coat of finish on the face as a very last resort. It works OK with French polish, especially if you use a dark shellac and
really thin it out, so you're using it just for the color. That doesn't seem to affect the sound, but I don't know how that works for the Tru Oil.
Good luck! --Hank
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Thanks. Well, almost finished. I am resetting the beard--hopefully today. I will try the acetone. I have some scraps from the face, so I will use
that for test patches.
I am not going to put anything on the face. If it is stained for good, I will just live with it. Like I said, it is by the treble side of the beard,
so it will look like a wear pattern.
Thanks for the great tips.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
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Hi there.. Good to see that your pretty much Done.
also... if you have windows paint on this borrowed computer you can reduce the pictures size. Thats what I use. you go up in the IMAGE above dropdown
menu and click on strech and skew. then if you put in a value like 50% the image will be twice smaller.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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I'll give it a shot
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Cool. Thanks, Samir. Love it. And free.
So, you can see I put on the mizraplek. I bought another Tortis than the one I showed earlier--I didn't like the pattern. I didn't want to put on a
big mizraplek--I sort of like the old school look with just the small oval. But, I play a little bit higher than that, so I came up with this
pattern. I like the way it hugs the purfling on the eyuns--I have seen that on other ouds, and I thought it looked cool. Other than that, nothing
much--I just wanted some cool, graceful lines. I am happy with it.
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