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Jonathan
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What do the mineral spirits do? I apply that after I have sanded it down?
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Jameel
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I wipe it on so you can see what the back would look like with a finish on. It also has a practical purpose. It highly accentuates any residual glue
and scratches, so you can make sure you clean up the back very thoroughly. Take a look at page 3 of my thread, about half way down there is a video of
me wiping on some naptha. Here's the link http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?action=attachme...
Naptha does the same thing as the spirits, only naptha evaporates much quicker.
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Mike
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Looking great Jonathan. Isn't this exciting? I'm very happy to see your progress.
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Jonathan
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Mike, this is really a lot of fun. Very satisfying.
There are a few things that I would have done differently, I already know, but I am really happy with the way it is turning out.
I really think my next one will go a lot easier, because I have learned so much this time.
One thing I have learned is that you have to get that rib exact the first time around, and make sure it is set in place exactly right, because if you
have to remove it, life gets tough.
I am really looking forward to the bowl being done (my goal is Jan 1), and moving on to the next part of this oud. I might even start another bowl
while I am working on the next part of this oud, just because it would be nice to be able to move from one thing to another at times, so that the
project does not get monotonous. So, maybe I will have a couple going at once.
Tonight, I am just screwing around trying to figure out an end cap. I ended up deciding to use lacewood, and then just a simple circle with
horizontal bands of maple and lacewood. The bowl is already pretty loud, and when I placed anything more elaborate up there, it started to look way
too busy. I know that endcaps are always just plain, but what the heck, it is my oud. This is not the final product, but just a quickie mockup of
what it will look like. That lacewood really blows me away. A pity that it was so tough for me to work with. When the wood is finished, it takes on
a really awesome 3-dimensional quality. Hard to se the full beauty of it now, but it will be great. I hope.
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Elie Riachi
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Looking good Jonathan. I see what you mean by how good the lacewood looks. I like the way they contrast with the maple, just imagine the whole back
like that... Great job.
What type bracing pattern are you aiming for?
Elie
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Elie. I didn't shine up that end cap or anything yet--that is still the raw wood. It will look good, though, when it is finished (although I
think it looks great already).
I am glad you brought up the bracing pattern, because I have been thinking about it a lot. I do have pictures of some oud bracing patterns, but, when
it comes right down to it, I really don't know much about braces. Clearly, though, they are incredibly important. . I am going to have to give that
a lot of thought.
Anybody happen to have pictures of the bracing pattern that Karibyan used?
It would really be nice if I could find some old old spruce somewhere. I was once told that Karibyan's braces and tops were made out of 100 year old
spruce. An exageration, I am sure, but it was told to me as fact. Even if they were only half that age, that is still old wood! I know Kyvelos and
others use spruce that is decades old.
Dincer's website clearly shows his bracing pattern. So does DocOs book, and Jameels posts.
So, I fitted the last rib on one side, and before it was dry, I moved the oud, the rib got stuck in a drawer, and cracked. Gotta remove that rib and
replace it now
That glue is going to be tough to get off the surface of the bowl.
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Jameel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
That glue is going to be tough to get off the surface of the bowl. |
Sharp cabinet scraper. One of the most awesome tools in woodworking. It's just a piece of steel. Yet so efficient. I love then. Are you familiar with
it? Let me know, it's a great tool, and I'd be glad to give you some pointers.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan....Anybody happen to have pictures of the bracing pattern that Karibyan used?
It would really be nice if I could find some old old spruce somewhere. I was once told that Karibyan's braces and tops were made out of 100 year old
spruce. An exageration, I am sure, but it was told to me as fact. Even if they were only half that age, that is still old wood! I know Kyvelos and
others use spruce that is decades old...... |
I had a Karibyan that was not 100 year old spruce (when I got it). But I can attest to the value of old wood. I have collected spruce through the
years, saving the oldest for special nu\builds or restorations. 100 years is very rare for spruce, or any wood outside the violin world. Most of the
old wood is traded among violin makers and never gets to the public market. You can try the instrument exhibitions and conventions to find old wood.
I scored some 20-39 year old sprucve from the estate of Robert Lundberg in that way. I also salvaged some spruce braces from an old piano I found in
the alley that had been destroyed during a kegger party. You may search second hand stores or piano repair shops or salvage yards for old furniture
and may find some old spruce drawer bottoms.
As for Karibyan's braces: you can see the bracing shapes in the Hamza Usta Restoration thread-
brace shapes
and the original location pattern-
brace locations
You will have to make some calculations to find the locations for your bowel - find the ratio of the length of your bowel relative to the Hamza Usta
face, (enlarge and print the photo and measure carefully from the the tail end) then apply the ratio to find the location of each brace in your bowel.
Do the same for the hole sizes as well. You will need to do this anyway unless your bowel is exactly yhe same length as a Karibyan. Hamza Usta used
exactly the same brace shapes as Karibyan (they both are based on Manol) and the location of the braces on the Hamza Usta must be good to get the
sound it produces.
Hamza Usta video
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Jonathan
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Doc, I have been staring at those pictures you have posted ever since they went up.
My oud bowl is ending up a little bit wider than I wanted. I know what caused this, and it won't happen next time. Still, I don't think it will be
too difficult to adjust the measurements for my particular oud.
You guys have been incredibly helpful. This would have been impossible without you. Impossible.
If you could give me some idea of the width and height of braces in typical Turkish ouds, I would really appreciate it.
Doc, I am searching for old furniture. I have some great old walnut from an old bed, and some killer mahogany. But, I have not yet found spruce. It
could be that I am not recognizing it. I really am terrible at identifying woods.
All the best.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by Jonathan....If you could give me some idea of the width and height of braces in typical Turkish ouds, I would really
appreciate it.... |
OK - The brace forward of the bridge is 6mm wide, all the rest are 5mm. The height ranges from 17 to 13 mm depending on the length of the brace,
except the brace below the small holes. This brace is cut down to 8mm high in the center with the high point on the treble side at 17mm and the bass
side at 14mm. The high point on the rest of the braces is offset 10 mm toward the right or treble side. The butt ends of all the braces are 7mm high.
There is the same crown and alignment features on the soundboard edge as detailed in the book for the Nahat. There ya go!
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Doc.
Jameel, I picked up a few cabinet scrapers today. It is amazing how well it works on the wood itself--cleaning up any uneven surfaces at the joints,
especially. I wish it wrked a little bit better on the glue. It does fairly well, but I still have quite a bit of residual glue left in the center
of the ribs. The bowl is not going to be a semi-circle, but rather a collection of line segments, so the glue does tend to remain right there in the
center of the rib. I have a few different sizes of scrapers (I just bought them today), and I guess it is just a matter of taking a lot of time and
doing it. Next time, I will try to do a better job with wiping it off before it dries. Live and learn.
One other important thing that I have noticed:
The titebond, I think, weakens quite a bit if you leave it open for a couple of days. I had inadvertently left it open, used it anyway to set a rib,
and then ended up having to remove the rib. This time, it was not nearly as difficult as when the glue was fresh. Could be that the joint just was
not good (that's why I was removing it), but it was a bit unsettling. In the past, when I have removed ribs, the glue has definitely been tougher
than the wood.
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Jonathan
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Almost forgot:
When I am done with the cabinet scraper, I will go to sandpaper:
80, 120, 220, and eventually further.
Any thoughts on pumice/rottenstone?
Guys, once the bowl is done, that was the hard part, right?
Just say yes.
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oudmaker
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hello Jonathan
I am keeping track of what you are going through. See how difficult to work with tidebond? I hate to say I told you so but next time when you are
building your bowl use HIDE GLUE! Your perseverance is admirable
Regards
Dincer
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Jameel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Almost forgot:
When I am done with the cabinet scraper, I will go to sandpaper:
80, 120, 220, and eventually further.
Any thoughts on pumice/rottenstone?
Guys, once the bowl is done, that was the hard part, right?
Just say yes. |
After scraping, I use 120, 180, 220, 320, 400, 600. (this is the scedule for using tru-oil, which you can find at http://www.lmii.com) I don't recomend french polish for a beginner. I don't use it. The tru-oil is excellent and easy. You shouldn't need the 80,
since the scraper will make it pretty smooth on it's own. No need for such a coarse grit. Stop after the 120 though until you finish the oud. You will
scratch it again as you build, and negate all your careful work. Pumice/rottenstone is used to rub out pore-filled finishes for a satin (pumice) to
high gloss (rottenstone) finish, not for bare wood. I'd say the bowl is the most technically demanding part as far as joinery goes, at least for me.
Fitting braces is a close second, but with that sanding technique I discovered, it's pretty easy.
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Dincer and Jameel.
Yes, Dincer. Hide glue next time. And, the next time I do purfling, I will use your method, as well. The main reason I did not use the hide glue
was that I had no idea how long the bowl would take. I am working on it when I get a chance here and there, and I thought that perhaps I would waste
a lot of glue because of an irregular work schedule.
Jameel, I am not going to go with the French Polish, although I love the look of it. It seems to me that it tends to show every little imperfection
in the wood, too. I have one more rib to add, hopefully tonight.
Going to use Doc's stringer for the neck. Adding the veneers would be tough, I think, and I really have no problems with a plain neck. Actually, the
band from the stringer (ebony) will be decorative, as well.
Going to use Dincer's peg box design.
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Jonathan
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I could have saved hours if I was just a bit more careful with that glue. It's coming off, though, just slowly.
I need to trim down the last two ribs--I only fitted them to the one side that was glued to the previous rib, and left the other side pretty much as
it was. Now, I have to file it down (or, plane and file, I guess) to the correct level, flush with the mould.
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Jonathan
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SamirCanada
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Congradulations!! I didnt speak too much on the thread yet but Iam loving this Jonathan Keep it going. I really admire your work so far I think you
should be proud of that first bowl.
Bravo.
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revaldo29
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Wow jonathan, that is really something to be proud of. Its truly a joy seeing your project come together. I'm not the one building it and i'm excited
to see the bowl. Can't imagine how excited you must be!
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oudmaker
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Jonathan
Give us a detail picture of your bowl`s neck block end.
Dincer
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bcearthtones
Oud Addict
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Looks Great so far , I'm really enjoying watching your oud come together,
Cheers,
Scott
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Jonathan
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Thanks, guys. Very, very much. There were quite a few times that I almost gave up on this bowl. There are still things about it that I am not happy
with, but I am glad that I kept going with it.
The main problem is that the ribs are not all the same size. It's not that big of a deal when the back is made out of one wood, but, here, it is more
noticeable, particularly at the neck and tail. Nothing terrible, and somebody that wasn't an oud player probably wouldn't even look at that. But, it
is something that I always look at--I check the bottom, and see if the ribs are all the same size. Picky, I guess, but to me that is a sign of
incredible craftsmanship if they are.
Unfortunately, I didn't reach that here. Nowhere near it. Still, in all, I think the bowl looks good. Nice shape. Nice woods. Just a fun looking
bowl.
Dincer, I will try to get some pictures up when I get some more of the glue scraped off those areas--but, I am guessing I wont get too much done over
the next two weeks.
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Jonathan
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I have only used the cabinet scraper, and the 60 grit sandpaper, but I used the spirits to check to see what areas of glue still remained. Man, I
love the way the wood looks when it is on!
The flames on the maple are really starting to pop out nicely. I can't wait until I have this thing really sanded down well.
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Jonathan
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That end cap is going to cover up a lot of problems. You can see what I mean--the ribs are not the same width. It is a lot less noticeable, though,
when the cap is in place. Still not glued in yet. This one is clearly too large. Have to trim it down. Still toying with the idea of inlaying a
little design in there. Probably just something really simple, like in that design above, or else the whole thing starts to look too busy. Those
horizontal bands in the circle, though, seem OK.
That's about all I will get done until after the first week of the year.
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Peyman
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That looks really nice... I like the arrangement of the ribs too. I think what you figured is working out.
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