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Jameel
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Where are all the really old ouds?
There plenty of old lutes, vihuelas, guitars etc. that are around from the 1600's. So where are all the old ouds? I know there are a couple from the
late 1800's (doc used to have on at his site), but that's not ancient. Old lutes are just as lightly constructed as ouds, so the durability is not an
issue.
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SamirCanada
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It could be that the reason for there disapearence is that there might have been armed conflicts up till now in the M-E so there could have been more
of them destroyed then in the west?. The Other idea is that people who do own a really old instrument like this probably are hidding it from the
public so that the government doesnt confiscate them. Which might also be the reason why the old ouds could be found with the family or relatives of
the ancient owners. If you take Farid's ouds for example there mostly with his cuzin I believe.
Thats a great topic tho lets hope that people who have more information can shed some light.
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Jonathan
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Are there any ouds that date from before the early 1800s?
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Brian Prunka
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I don't know the answer to this, but an interesting (to me) side note about music and armed conflicts:
during WWII Germany melted down the original engraving plates used to print much classical music by Mozart, etc. and made ammunition with the metal .
. .
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al-Halabi
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The oldest surviving ouds date from the nineteenth century, and even those are rare; no instruments from earlier periods are known to exist. It is
unlikely that older ouds are being hoarded – if they exist, at least some of them would have surfaced by now and been offered for sale to museums or
private collectors for the hefty sums that such rare instruments fetch on the market. Armed conflict also is not a satisfactory explanation for the
disappearance of old instruments in the Middle East. The history of Europe until the mid-twentieth century was far more violent than that of the
Middle East, both in the frequency and scale of warfare. World War II alone caused mass destruction and 55 million deaths, and it was preceded by
numerous violent conflicts between and within European states for which there is no parallel in the contemporaneous Middle East. I think that clues to
this puzzle might possibly be found in some key differences in the cultural attitudes toward music and musicians in the Middle East and Europe. My
take on this is conjectural, based on circumstantial evidence, and it would be good to hear responses to it.
The scholarship on the history of Middle Eastern music from medieval times onward stresses time and again two cultural realities that I think are
relevant here: the negative or ambivalent attitudes of Islam toward music, and the generally low social status accorded to musicians (with the
exception of the rare stars, who enjoyed patronage and prestige). From the early days of Islam there raged a polemic about music and its legitimacy.
The more conservative moralists took the view that music ought to be prohibited as a negative force that diverts attention from religious observance,
promotes sensuality, and is generally harmful to believers and the community. We saw this viewpoint implemented by the Taliban in Afghanistan, who
imposed an outright ban on all music, and also in the Islamic Republic of Iran, which in the first years after the revolution did the same. Recordings
and instruments were destroyed, and musicians were driven underground. Although this extreme approach was historically rare, a certain negative view
of music and musicians remained embedded in the region’s culture and has been reiterated by men of religion over the centuries. Muslims were openly
discouraged from becoming musicians, and it is not an accident that non-Muslims were so prominent in this area, sometimes forming the majority of the
musical profession in some localities. (They were also prominent as instrument makers – the Nahhats, Gamil George, Manol, Karibyan, Ohanyan, to
mention just a few.). And musicians came from lower classes and were considered of lowly social rank, which added another layer of bias. There
certainly were amateur lovers of music from higher classes who played the oud and other instruments, but given the religious objections and social
prejudices they were often careful to enjoy their musical passions discreetly. Learning to play an instrument was definitely not part of a person’s
education in the middle and upper classes of society until later in the nineteenth century, when this practice began to be adopted from Europe. (Many
of these families then acquired pianos for their children.)
In Europe there was a somewhat different cultural milieu that might help to explain the survival of older instruments. In middle and upper class
families, learning to play an instrument was considered part of the education of the young, both male and female. These families ordered instruments
from makers and often came to possess the high-quality ones. European paintings portray lutes in bourgeois and upper class settings, with both men and
women playing them or appearing next to them. In these circumstances the better-off generated a demand for instruments, came to own the finest ones
produced at the time, valued them as cultural assets, and were financially in a position to maintain and repair them over time. The fine lutes
displayed in European museums today came from this milieu. They survived because they were often of fine craftsmanship to begin with and because they
were in a position to be repaired when cracks, warping, and neglect could otherwise have caused their steady disintegration. In the Middle East the
better-off did not generate the same level of demand for instruments. The number of top-level, and therefore more durable, ouds in circulation was
probably quite small to begin with, which reduced the statistical chances for their survival. What must have happened is that instruments left by
professional musicians or amateur musicians were not preserved and attended to by heirs who had no musical interests and were certainly not encouraged
by the culture to provide training on these instruments to the younger generation. They ended up being stored away or hung on walls, and over time
they suffered the natural fate of neglected ouds. I have seen in Middle Eastern markets and shops broken ouds or parts of ouds dating back to as early
as 1911. In several cases the shopkeepers told me the same thing: that the old broken oud they were selling had been in the possession of a family in
the neighborhood for years without being used.
One wanders also if the Middle Eastern climate is particularly harsh on delicate instruments and may help to explain their failure to survive for
extended period.
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LeeVaris
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| Quote: | Originally posted by al-Halabi
... a certain negative view of music and musicians remained embedded in the region’s culture and has been reiterated by men of religion over the
centuries. Muslims were openly discouraged from becoming musicians, and it is not an accident that non-Muslims were so prominent in this area,
sometimes forming the majority of the musical profession in some localities. (They were also prominent as instrument makers – the Nahhats, Gamil
George, Manol, Karibyan, Ohanyan, to mention just a few.). And musicians came from lower classes and were considered of lowly social rank, which added
another layer of bias... |
Was this also true of the Ottoman court? I thought music was openly promoted by the Turkish Sultans... are there old Tambours floating around?
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oudmaker
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Al-Halabi
To stress your point:
In 1971 I went back to Istanbul for a visit. I told my dear late Mother-in law that I am playing music and making good money. Here is what she said to
me " You are a good man son, you wont do such a thing" and until she died she never believed that I played music for money. God bless her soul.
Lee
I do have an old TANBUR with no identification just my master told me that it is about 150 years old.
Dincer
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Jonathan
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Could it be that few ouds from before the late 1800s survived because they simply were not built to survive? Perhaps oud making entered its golden
period at the end of the 1800s, and ouds built prior to that time no longer exist because they were not valued as quality instruments, and they were
not built well enough to last through the centuries.
There are a lot of ouds from th 1890 to 1910 period, yet almost none before then. A lot of them are in private collections that we hear nothing
about, but they do exist. I don't think that it is a coincidence that this corresponds to Manol's rise as an oudmaker. Perhaps he raised the bar to
such a degree that all ouds, even those not made by him, tended to improve.
If you played the oud during this time period, there would be little incentive to keep an old, sub-par oud when there were so many brilliant oud
makers on the scene.
Just a thought.
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al-Halabi
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Jonathan, It could very well be that Manol raised the quality of ouds and made more durable instruments. But I would find it hard to believe that in a
period of over a thousand years in which this popular lute (the Arabs called it “the sultan of instruments”) was being produced across a large
region there were no great luthiers who built high-quality instruments until the turn of the twentieth century. The woodwork produced by some medieval
and Ottoman craftsmen is of such exquisite design and quality that few today would be able to match it. The same applies to pre-modern ceramics and
carpets, whose designs are being copied today. In societies that knew refined craftsmanship in many areas it would be odd if that same high
craftsmanship did not extend to instrument making. Most of the ouds made before the twentieth century were probably mediocre or worse. That’s to a
great extent true of today’s ouds as well, although advances in technology and science in the last century allow all kinds of improvements in
construction and sound quality. The better-made instruments are certainly more likely to survive, but then only if they are given the care they need
to keep them from falling apart over time. I sometimes wander what my kids will do with my instruments after I am gone…
Lee, The Ottoman court, and other royal courts in the region going back to the Umayyads and Abbasids, had palace musicians. Some Ottoman sultans
played instruments and composed pieces (Selim III, for example, who played the tanbur and took lessons from Tanburi Isak, a Jewish virtuoso on the
instrument). Music was played and enjoyed in all kinds of settings, from coffeehouses and public ceremonies to private gatherings and family
occasions. The misgivings of conservative circles about music were always there, but did not suppress the continuing performance and enjoyment of
music at all levels of society. The leaders of the Islamic Revolution in Iran imposed restrictions on music, but had to give up after a while in the
face of the general passion for music (although a new ban on the broadcasting of Western music has just been introduced in Iran).
Historically, the religious debate on music did not result in a general Muslim consensus, and the mix of views on the matter left people to their own
devices. Conservatives favored banning all or most music while moderate thinkers frowned on some types of profane and sensual music but generally took
a more relaxed view. In the eleventh century, the greatest theologian of the time, al-Ghazali, took on this issue and came up with a nuanced set of
guidelines. He basically argued music in itself is not bad; the question is the context and purpose of its use. Music that served laudable spiritual
and social purposes – for instance in religious hymns, work songs, communal songs, songs for family occasions – was acceptable. Music that was
intended for entertainment, escape, and the stirring of the senses was reprehensible and even prohibited (haram). There was clearly a struggle to
figure out how to set rules in an area that was murky and that was not given to easy control from above in any case. Until today there are
conservative elements and Islamist groups in the Middle East who take a dim view of profane and popular music as sources of evil. They associate music
and musicians with nightclubs, alcohol, and degenerate morals in general. These groups represent an old viewpoint that has been in the region for
centuries.
The oldest known tanburs date from the nineteenth century. So do the oldest lavtas (which were bigger than those made today in Turkey), baglamas
(which had less frets than they have today), and kanuns (which had no metal levers to change the pitch of the strings as they have today). In Iran the
oldest surviving art music instruments also date back only to the mid-nineteenth century.
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kasos
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Thanks to all the contributors for a very interesting thread, in particular to Al-Halabi for [what appears to me to be] a careful and balanced
consideration of the interaction between music and Islam.
I've spent a good part of my life as a musician in a variety of Christian denominations (I was raised Catholic, and continue to adhere, but have also
had extensive periods of playing the organ or other keyboards in various Protestant churches). One doesn't have to look very long to find many of
the same reservations (described as occurring within Islam) about the role of music also being expressed by Christian clergy - rock and roll as "the
devil's music" being among the most recurrent themes in recent decades. Although this may be less well known, there are also a number of
significant Christian denominations that, even now, while accepting singing as pleasing to God, see the use of instruments as wordly and
inappropriate, following much the same logic. The Roman Catholic church, which has, for the most part, encouraged music and, up until the 19th
century, at least, has been a major patron of new compositions and styles, has had many occasions where it lashed out against perceived sensuality in
music - eg., although the use of an orchestra is permitted, technically, the use of a solo violin in a liturgical setting remains forbidden in canon
law, because someone in the 19th century papal curia once thought the efffect too sensual. I must admit to having trangressed this particular
boundary many times in local worship services, though I was censured for it only once!
I also note that my father looked almost as dimly upon my decision to take a bachelor of music degree as Dincer's parent did about his career choice.
On the whole though, I would have to agree with Al-Halabi that European culture was friendly to music, including at the highest levels. Inspired by
the ancient Greek philosophers, for centuries the seminaries and universities taught the basic premise that the musical scale was a reflection of
divine order (the so-called "music of the spheres"). Although one can point to influential skeptics like Kierkegaard, who held that music, like the
other arts, was a useless distraction in man's relationship with God, such views have only rarely and for brief periods been implemented on a grand
scale (I'm thinking of some highly impassioned moments in Savanarola's Florence, or during the Reformation, but on the whole, though there's no
shortage of incidents of repression, mostly political in origin, which claimed their justification in Christian principles, very few of them have
resulted in the destruction of musical instruments).
Given my current interest in music from different parts of Asia, I have begun to be exposed to some examples, at least, where music seems to have been
integrated into Islamic religious experience - qawwali , and other music from the sufi traditions, for instance. I have also encountered references
to the Persian Tambur have been reserved, some centuries ago, for religious observance by groups like the Kurds. Are there other examples of use of
instruments in a religious context?
Mark
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al-Halabi
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Mark, thanks for the Christian parallels, which show interesting similarities in attitudes. The condemnation of instruments, and the distinction
between "good" and "bad" instruments, can also be found in Muslim writings. The ninth-century theologian Ibn Abi 'l-Dunya wrote the first known
treatise attacking all instruments and music. He saw instruments as frivolous and self-indulgent diversions from pious living. The term he used for
instruments was 'malahi,' which in Arabic means instruments of diversion or amusement. He obviously had a negative take on this term and so did other
writers after him. A fourteenth-century author, al-Adfuwi, applied the term malahi primarily to stringed instruments, which were closely associated
with non-religious art music for entertainment, but considered flutes and the tambourine to be acceptable.
Whereas instruments could not be played in mosques they found their way into the devotional rituals of Sufi orders throughout the Islamic world. At
the most basic level, drums were used to accentuate the rhythmic buildup of chanting, dhikr ceremonies, and initiation of members into trances. The
ney also became a key instrument in Sufi music and ritual. It acquired sacred and mystical connotations, seen as a symbol of the human windpipe and
its seven holes sometimes described as representing the seven heavens. The most elaborate musical performance in a Sufi religious context appears in
the rituals of the Mevlevi order (the Whirling Dervishes), which use a full ensemble of Ottoman classical instruments to perform a whole suite (ayin)
which accompanies the singing and dancing and includes instrumental preludes and concluding pieces. Members of the Mevlevi order were prominent
composers of both religious and non-relgious music, and the Mevlevi lodges served in a way as conservatories in which many Ottoman musicians received
their musical training. The Mevlevis are an example of an approach to music that saw it as something that enhances spiritual elevation and personal
enlightement. More conservative elements frowned on their involvement with music.
Dincer's story about his mother's attitude reminded of something I read about the early experiences of Serif Muhittin Targan, who became an oud
virtuoso. As a child he was prohibited from playing the oud, and had to do it in secret when no one noticed. Because of missing strings he compensated
by learning to play up the neck on other strings, which built up his technique early on. Dincer probably knows other stories of family resistance to
involvement in music, especially as a career.
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Peyman
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| Quote: | | The leaders of the Islamic Revolution in Iran imposed restrictions on music, but had to give up after a while in the face of the general passion
for music (although a new ban on the broadcasting of Western music has just been introduced in Iran). |
This is a great thread. I remember when the ban was lifted in Iran. I was 6 or 7 and remember the market being flooded with all kinds of music,
specially art music, and musical instruments. At least one thing the revolution did was to breath life into Persian traditonal music which was dying
in pre-revolution times as it seemed to agree with their twisted view of Islam.
Like Dincer Usta's experience, musicians in Iran are also looked down upon. For example the term "Motreb" (musician) is a derogatory term. And I think
one reason you don't find old instruments is because of this view. Most musical instruments were probably burned as firewood or used to make other
things as the owners passed. The ones that survived are in museums and private hands, for example this old kamancheh http://www.davidrumsey.com/amico/amico1096813-105324.html
Mark and Al-Halabi,
That tanboor that's played in Iran is not like the turkish tanbur. It's smaller and has a different body, very similar to the dotar but it's a more
evolved instrument. It has 14 frets with 3 strings two of which are tuned in unison. There are no quarter tones. The technique to play is different
too. It's played with a technique that's similar to flamenco guitarits glissando (?) technique where all four fingers are moved in an orderly fashion
over the strings. The technique is called shorreh (literally, sound of water crashing).
The Kurdish darvishes use the instrument, alongside a daf, in their rituals. They respect the instrument very much, as they voozoo (washing hands as
if praying) and then kiss the instrument and put it on their foreheads.
The darvish rituals in Iran are very different than what you see from Konya darvishes. They have their roots to pre-islamic Iran and there are many
sects, but the kurdish darvishes have the wildest rituals (Ayin) I have ever seen. It looks like a scene from a heavy metal concert. They have long
hair and they bang heads standing shoulder to shoulder as they move in a circle.
One of the famous darvishes in Iran, Moshtagh Ali-Shah was put to death (about 200 years ago) once the imam of the city found out that he had been
praying while playing the setar. He was stoned to death by the people. He is credited with adding the 4th string to the setar and has left many songs
and poems that the darvishes still use in their ayin.
Well, I hope I didn't digress the discussion too much...
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al-Halabi
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Samir, the eastern churches do indeed have an old and beautiful repertoire of hymns and religious music. These kinds of religious expression, though,
were not subjected to criticism in any of the religious groups, including the Muslims. The Qur’anic chant and the various types of Muslim religious
song (tawshih, madih nabawi, tasbih, ilahi, nefes, etc.) were outside the kind of criticism leveled at music; in fact, they were traditionally not
even classified as music. They were regarded as vocal genres in which what mattered were the sacred words, not the melody that was used to convey
them. The reciters of the Qur’an essentially improvise on maqams in delivering their verses, creating a kind of vocal taqsim, but that musical
dimension is officially underplayed. It’s the holy verses that are supposed to be the focus of the listeners’ attention, not the melodic aspect.
In practice, though, some reciters, like Shaykh Mustafa Isma’il in Egypt, have been responsive to their audiences' requests to repeat verses in
different maqams and turn their recitations into something akin to a musical performance. Conservatives have criticized him and others for diverting
attention from the word by stressing melody. It’s another example of the blurry line between permitted and problematic types of music.
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Jonathan
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Doesn't there seem, however, to be a clear age line at which ouds either exist, or do not exist? My knowledge here is limited, but it seems as though
there is almost nothing before 1890 [I know, Cengiz Sarikus has that one from 1827, and there is another oud offered by another guy that is supposedly
from 1880 (I seriously doubt it)].
Why is there that clear line of demarcation, at around 1890?
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al-Halabi
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There is definitely a line of demarcation, with ouds predating the late 19th century being virtually extinct. It is intriguing. The question is
whether it has to do with a critical shift in the quality of ouds from around that time that has made them more durable than previous ouds, or with a
cultural shift in the twentieth century that has promoted the preservation of older ouds, or possibly with both. The musical scene of the last hundred
years has been unlike anything that existed in the Middle East before, and the transformations may very well have helped keep good instruments
maintained, valued, and in circulation more than before. The coming of recording, radio, film, and television made it possible for musicians to reach
large audiences and opened opportunities for success not previously available. The modern states promoted formal music education in schools and
conservatories, and so provided greater legitimacy and status to professional musicians. Easier travel and communication broadened the horizons and
contacts of musicians. All this has created a much larger market for good ouds, a market that has become international. First-class ouds inherited by
families are much less likely today to be left to disintegrate. Even the establishment of museums in the region, which did not exist before the late
nineteenth century, has provided a venue for preserving old instruments (Targan's Manol and Nahat are on display in two Turkish museums).
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Peyman
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I am curious to know where did oud makers get tonewood prior to the demarcation time? Is there any documents or evidence? There is a theory about
Stradviari instruments having great quality due to the extreme cold weather conditions that affected the tonewood he used. As you say Al-Halabi maybe
easier travelling made it easier for those guys to have access to higher quality tonewood.
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al-Halabi
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Peyman,
The history of pre-twentieth century instrument making in the Middle East is pretty much a black hole. Little is known even about the identity of
instrument makers before the twentieth century, let alone where they got their tone woods. According to Cem Behar, a Turkish scholar who has written
several books on Ottoman music (and also performs on the ney), the name of not a single Ottoman instrument maker of the period before the nineteenth
century is known, and only for the second part of the century do we come to know the names of makers of ouds and other instruments. The most
celebrated luthiers of that period of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries were the oud maker Manol and the Armenian kemence maker
Baronak (Baron). In an article published in Turkey about both luthiers and their work Behar gives a description of the high quality materials and fine
craftsmanship they used, but with no information on where they got their woods (walnut, spruce, fir, plum wood, cedar, rosewood, juniper, ebony). Both
were extremely selective about the woods they used, especially for their soundboards.
Most of the woods used by luthiers in Istanbul probably came then, as they do today, from Anatolia, which is rich in forests. Another source was the
Balkans, which were part of the Ottoman state almost until its end and sold their plentiful timber in the larger region. Trade with India and the
East, which was routine throughout the centuries, must have brought in exotic woods not found in the Middle East and the Balkans. It’s quite
possible that some woods were also imported from Europe (there was established Middle Eastern trade with Venice, Genoa, France, England, the
Netherlands, and Austria for many centuries). In the Arab lands of the Middle East, which were largely deforested already by late antiquity, wood was
routinely imported from the Byzantines and Europe after the Muslim conquests in the seventh century, and afterwards from Anatolia after that area
passed from Byzantine to Turkish Muslim control in the twelfth-thirteenth centuries.
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oudmaker
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Al-Halabi
Again to back-up your point of " most of the woods used by lutiers in Istanbul came then from Anatolia...."
From the book 'Violin making as it was and is By Ed. Heron-Allen 1879' page 126 second edition
" According to M. Fetis, in his notice on Anthony Stradivari, the maple used by old Italian makers came from Croatia, Dalmatia, and even TURKEY: he
goes on to say that it was sent to Venice prepared for galley oars, and that the Turks , always at war with the Venetians, took care to select wood
with the greatest number of waves in it, i.e., having the curliest grain, in order that it might break the sooner; that it was from these parts of the
wood , intended for the rowers, that the Italian makers chose what suited them for the manufacture of violins"
Remarkable haa!!
Dincer
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al-Halabi
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Dincer,
I didn't realize that maple of Turkish origins ended up on Stradivari violins. That is interesting. I also thought it was funny that the Turks
deliberately sold their Venetian rivals wood for oars that wouldn't hold up well. Very clever.
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Stefan Andalus
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Since the history of photography goes back a few decades before the 1890's, I wonder whether photographic archives dealing with the Ottoman Empire
might show musicians with ouds. Does anyone know about this?
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Stefan Andalus
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On the Veysel Music site, there iis an oud that supposedly goes back to 1826. There are some really lovely antique ouds on this site from the
1890's-1910's as well.
http://www.veyselmuzik.com/eng/antique.php
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al-Halabi
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I wonder about the oud dated 1826. One tends to be a bit skeptical about this kind of lone survivor, but for all we know it could be authentic. The
other antique ouds on the site appear perfectly legitimate. I have an oud by one of the listed luthiers, made in Istanbul in 1921, and it's in very
good shape.
There is a large corpus of photographs from Istanbul and the Ottoman provinces beginning around 1870, but I don't believe it sheds any new light on
ouds. Most of the photographs were taken by professional photographers and displayed mostly monuments, street and market scenes, and exotic types.
They were intended primarily for Western customers interested in images of the Orient. Examples of this early photography in the region are available
at the University of Chicago Library web site:
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/mideast/Contents.html.
Many images also survived in the form of postcards and advertisements from the period. An example of a card from around 1900 showing a group of five
musicians in Aleppo (including an oud player) is reproduced in the book 'The Modern Middle East: A History' by James Gelvin (Oxford, 2005), p. 107.
The photo doesn't really tell us anything new, though, about ouds of that period (unless an oud with a single soundhole appears interesting to us
today). I have seen many of these old photos and have not noticed anything dramatic related to ouds. There are some private and family collections,
and they may contain images with unfamiliar information on instruments, but I doubt it.
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oudmaker
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I have a Manol dated 1900
Dincer
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Jonathan
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Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I think that the 1826 oud of Cengiz Sarikus is legit. I have written him back and forth a couple of times about that oud. Who knows, though, how
much of it is original. Perhaps its apparently unique design resulted in it being cared for a bit more than other ouds from that era. I really want
to see it in person. Hopefully, I will get to Turkey in 2006. Cengiz Sarikus has been very reputable in the few dealings that I have had with him.
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
Member Is Offline
Mood: Aksak
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Has anyone checked if there were any historical ouds in the German collections that Sachs and Hornbostel had in the early 20th century? They managed
to acquire all kinds of old instruments from all over the world, and though many were destroyed during the world war(s), I believe some survive in
European museums and such.
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