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manuscript
Oud Admirer
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Magdy El Ashmawy master luthier vs Naseer Shamma scam
Al Farabi Manuscript
Hello all, I have heard about this most interesting and intriguing subject regarding the inventor of the 8 string Oud. Please do forgive me I have not
introduced my self to you but I am a scholar of Arabic origin in the study of ancient oriental manuscripts. I have work with several
auction/antiquities houses and also lecture part time in a university. I have heard about the above subject through one of my loyal students who is an
Oud fanatic. I can say through my own experience and research (hence the reason that it took me so long to comment on the matter) that Dr. Elashmawy
is the inventor of the 8 string oud and not Naseer Shamma as he says. Basically I have seen both elashmawy's and shamma's respective websites and I
have come to the following conclusion. shamma claims that he has come accross a original manuscript that Al Farabi has written. As an expert in this
field I say it is proposterous for the following reasons:
1) There is no known document in existence in any library index or university sources.
2) The language used in the manuscript is not of the time of Farabi neither are the names used for the muscical tones (Maqam). It is all modern
language.
3) The handwriting and the calligraphy have no relation to the period in time of which they are supposed to have come from.
4) Finally and most importantly, Shamma claims that this manuscript describes and 8 string oud, if anyone looks at it you can clearly see that it
illustrates 7 strings and not 8.
See for yourselves and you will understand.
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revaldo29
Oud Junkie
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If you don't mind me asking, what university do you teach part-time in?
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SamirCanada
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Doesnt Nasser Shamma play with a 7 string oud made by yaroub? 
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manuscript
Oud Admirer
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yes you are right and he has never been pictured with an 8 string oud. No one has ever seen this 8 string oud that he claims to have made. good
point.
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fyenix
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in my opinion it is not enough to just introducing yourself as "a scholar of Arabic origin in the study of ancient oriental manuscripts" when the
subject you brought up had mention couple of respectfull names (in this case Mr elashmawy and shamma not to mention calling such person a "scam")
for a start why dont you tell us what is your name and where do you teach?
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Django
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I would add that in my opinion this forum would be better off without this kind nastiness, yes? Really, who cares who was first? Let's proceed to
more positive posts about our beloved instrument.
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manuscript
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Firstly I do not see why I need to state my name and where I work, why should I, which one of you has done this??? nobody!!!! Furthermore, how do I
know there are'nt any nutters out there that could stalk me?? Anyway I was not being nasty about anyone this is my professional opinion and it should
not offend any one. Also it is important to state who discovered the 8 string oud first because Naseer Shamma claims it is him when it is not, Magdy
El Ashmawy is its discoverer. Imagine if you invented or discovered something and someone denies your basic right of recognising your talent, and
that is why it is important. Anyway if you look at http://www.elahmawyoudandnay.com you will see in the references section that the newspaper articles date way back to before shamma claims to have
discovered the 8 string oud.
Why is everyone getting so heated up, unless they have ulterior motives????? If you are truly oud lovers you need to know the truth.
did not mean to offend anyone just stating facts
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bayati
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I have been reading all the postings in this topic and i am wondering why naseer shaama is not responding to all this??? it would be interesting to
see if there is any scientific rebuttal from naseer shaama to do with the points that manuscript made........
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fyenix
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. . then the whole thing you (manuscript) mentioned sound like a "scam" itself unless we all really know who you are. . .
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revaldo29
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I agree, this post is meaningless unless the one throwing out the accusations establishes his/her credibility. Otherwise, you have no right to make
such accusations.
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Django
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I agree completely. The accused should know who his accuser is.
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SamirCanada
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Dont think people dont notice that your first post here is a rather strong stance to introduce yourself in a forum where you are not known. Maybe your
friends with this person but this isnt the place to discuss about who was first and who wasnt. Nasser doesnt sell 8 sting ouds on the other hand
Magdy El Ashmawy does and his site's link has been posted here wich in the first place is nice of Mike to allow. But there is no need to be pushing
the issues here. Since mainly this is on a personnal basis between the 2 men.
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Longa
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I think its healthy to have such debates.
While Naseer is avery skilled player and likes to talk about Alfrabi during his interviews I could never figure out what he wants to say.
I have also followed the work of Magdy Ashmay since 1980's
Naseer muast have been very young at the time.
Magdy's work is not about adding one or two strings to the oud I think its more about continuing from and implementing Alfrabi's work and putting it
into prctice.
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David Parfitt
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| Quote: | Originally posted by manuscript
Firstly I do not see why I need to state my name and where I work, why should I, which one of you has done this??? nobody!!!! |
OK manuscript, I'll go first. My name is David Parfitt and I work in the School of Physics at the University of Exeter (UK).
Your turn now.
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al-Halabi
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I am not familiar with what Naseer Shamma has said about al-Farabi or the historical origin of 8-course ouds, but I thought it would be useful to make
a brief comment about what is known to us about the historical evolution of the oud from the writings of Middle Eastern authors over the centuries.
Neither al-Farabi nor any other medieval writer describes an 8-course oud. All the major writers until the 15th century (al-Kindi. Ibn al-Munajjim,
al-Farabi, Ikhwan al-Safa', Ibn al-Tahhan, Ibn Sina, al-Urmawi, the anonymous author of 'Kanz al-Tuhaf,' etc.) mention either a 4-course or a 5-course
oud. These were the two standard types of oud that co-existed in the region. Al-Farabi used the 5-course oud and its fingerings as a model for
analysing the tone system. A hundred years later Ibn al-Tahhan, an accomplished oud player and one of the great court musicians in Fatimid Cairo,
wrote in his book on music ('Hawi al-funun') that the ouds in Egypt in his time, and his own oud, had four courses, although in some other places
5-course ouds were used.
Ouds with more courses than the standard four or five appear in the Ottoman period. In the late 15th century, the Ottoman author al-Ladhiqi mentions
the recent appearance of a new oud with 6 courses (named oud akmal) alongise the 4-course oud (oud qadim) and 5-course oud (oud kamil) that had been
around for centuries. In the early 16th century the Ottoman court musician Mahmud al-Maraghi describes a still newer innovation - the development of
an oud with 7 courses (named oud mukammal). Sometime in the 17th century or 18th century this 7-course oud found its way to Egypt (an Ottoman province
at the time) and remained there well into the 19th century. The French scholar Villoteau picked up one of these 7-course Egyptian ouds when he was in
Egypt around 1800 and wrote a detailed description of it (I have posted Villoteau's diagram of this oud on a different thread). The Musical
Instruments Museum in Brussels has this type of Egyptian oud in its collection.
Based on everything we know, in the time of al-Farabi (who died in 950) and even 500 years later ouds had either four or five courses, not more. Ouds
with a couple of additional courses appeared in the Ottoman Empire, but none as far as is known had 8 courses. It would be interesting to know where
the information about a medieval oud with 8 double courses (rather than a total of 8 strings) comes from.
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SamirCanada
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Verry good information al-Halabi thanks for sharing your point in this story.
Good on you David for explicitly saying who you are and where you work. But now that I think of it... it wasnt really needed. Iam not blaming you for
doing so, far from it since I and many others respect you verry much. There is no need to inform explicitly who we are to people asking it of us (if
they took the time to read through the forrums and become involved then it could become clear who people are) and it comes from the fact that for the
last couple of years all the members grew closer and learned about eachother... almost to the extent of becoming a oud fraternity. And thats how you
develop credentials and credibility. You see Iam kind of sceptical of someone that registers to the forrums and is ready to posts in threads so
quickly and right after that another one register's and is ready to jump in this heated conversation 15 minutes after singing up.
Maybe you should look up this thread before saying nobody on the forrums is ready to say who they are.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=411#pid1922...
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klip
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Hey longa, how come u biased???? even though naseer is a very talented player even more than some of the prominent musicians from his country as he
says.
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Greg
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Today is an excting day for me. I have just "invented" a new instrument. It is called the "132.5 cm grey plastic didgeridoo." Most would be aware that
similar instruments have been in use by my Aboriginal Australian brothers for the past 40,000 years. But the ones they play are usually made from
eucalyptus tree branches, hollowed out by termites and are not exactly 132.5 cm in length. My invention is precisely that length and is hollowed out
by a different process, called extrusion. Some may agrue that this is merely an adaptation of an ancient design, but I assert that
this is clearly a new invention and that I am the "founder."
I would like to share a sound sample with you, but I do not have the time right now. You see, this afternoon I intend to invent another new device. It
is to be known as the "bamboo and twine camera tripod." I'll post pictures as soon as the patents have been registered.
Regards,
Greg.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Kind of along the same lines as Greg. A few months ago I invented the 6-string oud (note: not the six course oud) It takes less time to tune and
half the cost to string... now I can get double the mileage from a standard set of oud strings.  Geez some European lutes must have 20 strings or more.
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Jason
Oud Junkie
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I've got a 10 stringer right now because one of my strings broke  One of the
things I love about the oud and oud players is that they are far less interested in "gear" than many other musicians. Sure, we talk about different
luthiers but we talk about players and music much more.
On the bass forum I frequent it is another matter entirely.
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JT
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Hey Guys,
Im the inventor of the 130 course string oud, sure its totally unplayable and with an extremely large neck width (130 cm) but what can you do....Im
kidding ofcourse.
I think we should just get back to listening to our beautiful ouds and not worry about such topics which dont really go anywhere...one word against
another, and I dont think its that big a deal who invented the 8th string...Im sure people have experimented with they're instruments throughout
time.
True or not true, lets get on with playing and enjoying our fantastic music!
JT
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Django
Oud Addict
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Actually I invented (using the name Schroedinger) the quantum oud which has the probability of either seven or eight courses at the same time... while
it is in its case. When the case is opened...well, that involves the collapse of a wave function, and probably the wreck of a perfectly good oud!
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PSab
Oud Lover
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I find these sarcasm's rather childish and frivolous. The author of the post had a few interesting points. I have looked at the "manuscript", http://www.naseershamma.com/farabi.html , and have noticed that there are only 14 pegs which suggest that this oud has 7 courses. Perhaps instead
of attacking the writer, and accusing those who announce interest in the writer's news, we can have a civilized debate about the subject. Sadly, most
times when someone puts forth an unpopular suggestion, the members of this forum attack his persoanlity like a pack of vicious dogs rather than having
a courteous and scientific debate regarding the issue.
Lastly, I hope no one accuses me of taking part in a conspiracy plot with the writer of the post inorder to destroy Mr. Shamma's reputation. I don't
know the fellow and as you can see my user name was created last year. The fact is that Mr. Shamma's works speak for themselves.
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sydney
Oud Junkie
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This is one wise opinion
| Quote: | Originally posted by JT
Hey Guys,
lets get on with playing and enjoying our fantastic music!
JT |
Good on you Joe. Well said.
Actually a nice taqsim of yours would compliment and support what you said very nicely.
Do you think you can treat us to one ... please?
Stay well
Kind Regards,
------------------
Emad
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jazzchiss
Oud Junkie
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I think that the manuscript can describe a 8 course oud with two single basses.
I agree with the majority of the forum than adding strings to an instrument it’s not an invention and it doesn’t matter who did it first.
For me, Shamma is the best contemporary player and perhaps the most technical of all times, but his claim to be ‘the only musician to have
constructed a 8 string oud’ following certain manuscript is quite ridiculous.
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