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sydney
Oud Junkie
Posts: 579
Registered: 12-9-2003
Location: Down Under
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bastanikar
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Hey budd
jazzchiss  ,
Were not you the man who invented the 8 course Guitar on it's your web page ... 
Your guitar looks very Bashir style man. I like it. did you have to change the width of the finger board? or you used closer spaces between
strings?
What are your secrets? 
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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jazzchiss
Oud Junkie
Posts: 217
Registered: 12-20-2004
Location: Madrid
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Mood: Improvising
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Ha, ha! I didn’t invent anything!
I ordered my 8 strings guitar after seeing play to Egberto Gismonti. Naturally, it has a wider fingerboard.
It is still for sale: http://es.geocities.com/jazzchiss/anuncio8cuerdas.html
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
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PSab, thanks for giving the link to Naseer Shamma’s page, which shows the Arabic document described as “Al-Farabi’s Manuscript for 8 string Oud,
discovered by Naseer Shamma” (http://www.naseershamma.com/farabi.html). I had not seen it previously and just read through it quickly. A couple of immediate points come out of
this document’s internal evidence:
1. The oud in the detailed diagram is one of 7, not 8 courses. The names of the 7 courses (rast, ashiran, segah, nihuft, nawa, etc.) are listed twice,
next to the pegs and next to the bridge. A 7-course oud actually appeared in the Middle East in the 16th century, when it was described as an
innovation. It became standard in Egypt in the 18th and 19th centuries.
2. The author of the document indicates the location of the basic degrees of the Arab scale on the oud's fingerboard with the eight notes rast, dugah,
segah, jahargah… kardaniya), which are identified as the first octave (al-diwan al-awwal) in the traditional two-octave range of the region's tonal
system. This Persian terminology for the scale degrees (or for the names of the oud courses) was not in use in the time of al-Farabi (he used the four
left hand fingers and their location on the oud's fingerboard to identify the various pitches and intervals). The Persian names for the notes became
common in subsequent centuries, with various changes taking place in them over time (nawa replacing penjgah, etc.). The terminology in this particular
document reflects later Arab usage, specifically of the 18th-19th centuries.
These two observations seem to point in one direction: the document is most likely Egyptian from the 18th or 19th century. The oud it displays was the
common 7-course Egyptian oud of the time, for which we have literary documentation and even a surviving intact example in a museum; and the musical
nomenclature it uses also belongs historically to this late period, and defintely not to al-Farabi's time in the 10th century.
Setting aside the fact that someone miscounted the number of courses on the oud and made an incorrect attribution of this document to al-Farabi, the
text is still an unusual find. It documents aspects of a type of older oud that was once common but is no longer around. The bits of explanatory text
in the document indicate that the anonymous author was familiar with the oud and the musical system. Such writings are really rare for the period
before the 20th century.
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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
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Mood: Happy
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for anybody interested, there are some nice videos on El Ashmawy's website. i enjoyed seeing them.
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PSab
Oud Lover
Posts: 24
Registered: 4-21-2005
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Al-haibi, these inconsistancies were what i think the original writer of the post was trying to point out. A question which has occupied me for a long
time is, what is the reason that some of the dastgah's are named after the strings on the oud. forexample, segah and chahargah. Clearly, in both
cases, the tonic could be translated, and in both cases, the popular tunning do not involve re or la as the tonic.
thank you,
pouya
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
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Pouya, the dastgahs you mention are actually not named after the strings of the oud but after basic degrees in the Arab-Persian tonal system that
developed in the medieval period. The strings of the oud were themselves named after the tones they produced in this same system. Segah, Chahargah,
Mahur, Nava, and Rast-Panjgah are names of dastgahs that originated from the names of particular tones. Several dastgahs and also many Arab-Turkish
maqams were named after tones that were central to them, either as tonics or because they otherwise played a dominant role in the melodic features of
the mode. For example, segah (“third place” in Persian) was the name of the third note of the basic scale (the first note being yegah and later
rast, and the second dugah). This note segah is the tonic of the dastgah of Segah, and it is also the tonic of maqam Segah in Arab and Turkish music.
So the dastgah and maqam of Segah came to be named after the first note of their scale.
The tones in this traditional tone system did not refer to absolute pitches; they could take on any pitch, as long as the correct interval sequence
was maintained.
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bayati
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 2-4-2006
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I suggested before that Naseer Shamma should respond to this matter but got no response. So now I am suggesting that Magdy El-Ashmawy respond on this
page. I have e-mailed Mr. Magdy through his website today. Hopefully we will get to hear from both gentlemen.
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sydney
Oud Junkie
Posts: 579
Registered: 12-9-2003
Location: Down Under
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bastanikar
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My 3.7 cents - after currency conversion.
| Quote: | Originally posted by bayati
I suggested before that Naseer Shamma should respond to this matter but got no response. So now I am suggesting that Magdy El-Ashmawy respond on this
page. I have e-mailed Mr. Magdy through his website today. Hopefully we will get to hear from both gentlemen. |
I do not think Naseer or El-ashmawy should answer to any of this.
Give me one good reason why should they?
We are only oud fans no more, even if some of the members is as famous as Naseer we are not a recognised organisation to judge no one. So please let's
just get out of that silly mode. which I guess it's going to end up with Mike closing the thread. I could be wrong.
Many respected members asked nicely to cool off the fight and focus on the beautiful oud and their request got called "childish and frivolous".
Mr. manuscript, If there was a real issue between El ashmawy and Naseer. I guess they can sort it out thmselves. I do not think they need us "oud
fans" to judge.
And if you were El ashmawy himself "I like your Nay design" , But I do not think it is wise to bring this issue here.
Sorry guys.
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
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nicely said Emad... Lets get back to playing oud.
Inchallah JT is going to bless us with a little taqasim.
would be nice eh?
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Longa
Oud Lover
Posts: 20
Registered: 9-10-2005
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I have just sent an email to Dr Magdy to write to us here in this forum and explain his theory to put an end to all this.
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Magdy-El-Ashmawy
Oud Admirer
Posts: 1
Registered: 2-8-2006
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Dr. Magdy El-Ashmawy
Hi Bayati and Longa,
Thank you for letting me know about Mike's website which I was not aware was in existence and also had no idea of what was going on in it involving my
name. Listen folks, it is not a dispute or a debate because the facts are already known and my answer to all this has been said by Manuscript and Al
Halabi (whom I would like them to contact me through my website: http://www.elashmawyoudandnay.com, as I have some interesting pieces of knowledge I would like to share with them). I have only one point to add
look at all the videos and references on my website. Notice the dates and how old everybody was at the time. I going to add another page to my site
to give a detailed reply to this subject.
To Mike, Super Administrator:
Great website and as you like the videos on my website, I am going to post soon a very rare crisp piece of video footage of George Mishelle the great
Egyptian player recorded in 1961 and some other great audio recordings which show who are the great oud players of the past and of our time.
P.S. This is the only time I am going to be on Mike's website, any comments must be in a civilised manner. I am sure that the Super Administrator
will not allow any more childish or unpolite comments on his site.
Dr. Magdy El-Ashmay
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
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Thanks for your comments. I was intrigued by the document and gave my comments on its anachronistic dating. I will write to you directly.
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bayati
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 2-4-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Dear Dr. Magdy thanks for the reply. You are welcome in my office anytime, I look forward to meeting with you in the near future. You now have my
contact details which I e-mailed to you, hope to hear from you soon.
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Longa
Oud Lover
Posts: 20
Registered: 9-10-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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HI every body
Its a very dignified answer from Dr Ashmawy and for anybody who doesn't know, adding 2 more strings to the oud to make it 8 strings are the least of
his contributions.
Have a look at the long neck one sound hole floating bridge metal pegs and biggest of all is the mathematical formulae which he came up with. All this
together with the right string gauges gives his ouds this magnificent sustain presence which can be heard in the later version which can be seen in
Hussein Saber's video.
Looking at Dr Ashmawys work that I have been following since the early 80s and in all his articles, he was stating that Alfrabi had never invented an
8 oud string. The only thing that Dr Ashmawy adopted from Alfrabi was the methodology of mathematics in music.
As far as I know the only people who researched the relation between mathematics and music in Egypt were Dr Mustafa Musharafa and Ghatas Abdel Malik
Khashab and last but not least Dr Magdi Ashmawy
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manuscript
Oud Admirer
Posts: 5
Registered: 2-3-2006
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To Dr. Magdy El-Ashmawy,
Thank you for the clarification and answer. It would be my pleasure to meet with you the next time I am in London.
Take care and excellent work, well done!!!
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JT
Unregistered
Posts: N/A
Registered: N/A
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Id love to post a taqasim, but Im on tour at moment and very hard to do so away from home, I promise you guys one in the future.
By the way Emad, you are too nice of a guy man, Ive heard you're playing...you modest man you...maybe you can inspire with one of yours for my tour
huh?
Cheers,
JT
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sydney
Oud Junkie
Posts: 579
Registered: 12-9-2003
Location: Down Under
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bastanikar
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Lovely
 )
We all look forward to your taksim hopefully soon.
Thanks for you kind words. I only listen and copy from other people's playing.
Good Luck for your tour Joseph. You are a great source of inspiration for all of us. I am too proud of you.
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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mjamed
Oud Junkie
Posts: 131
Registered: 2-3-2006
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Can you check your U2U Longa ? :)
Hallo Longa
i've sent you a U2U message.
Can you check it and replay back to me
thanks
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bayati
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 2-4-2006
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The origin of Nasseer Shamma's Farabi Document
To Manscript, check this out.
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bayati
Oud Admirer
Posts: 6
Registered: 2-4-2006
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No Attachment
The attachment was too big, it was e-mailed to me today by Dr. Ashmawy. You can find it in page number 34, volume number 9 from The Encylopedia of
the Description of Egypt, by the French Scholars in Napolean Bonaparte's time, Arabic translation by Zohair Al shayib. This is exactly the same as
what Mr. Shama has produced.
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noon
Oud Admirer
Posts: 2
Registered: 1-31-2006
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Did you see the new video recording of el ashmawys site for George Michelle also have a look at the very interesting seven course oud tuning in the
references section
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David Parfitt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 629
Registered: 11-16-2003
Location: Devon, UK
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There seem to be an awful lot of newly-registered members with an interest in this thread. Can this be just a coincidence, I ask myself?
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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David Parfitt
There seem to be an awful lot of newly-registered members with an interest in this thread. Can this be just a coincidence, I ask myself? |
Indeed and sometimes it also sounds like a monologue
Best wishes
Ronny
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David Parfitt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 629
Registered: 11-16-2003
Location: Devon, UK
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
Indeed and sometimes it also sounds like a monologue |
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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