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Author: Subject: Magdy El Ashmawy master luthier vs Naseer Shamma scam
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[*] posted on 2-6-2006 at 01:53 AM
Hey budd


jazzchiss :wavey: ,

Were not you the man who invented the 8 course Guitar on it's your web page ... :D


Your guitar looks very Bashir style man. I like it. did you have to change the width of the finger board? or you used closer spaces between strings?

What are your secrets? ;)




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Emad
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jazzchiss
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[*] posted on 2-6-2006 at 03:18 AM


Ha, ha! I didn’t invent anything!

I ordered my 8 strings guitar after seeing play to Egberto Gismonti. Naturally, it has a wider fingerboard.

It is still for sale: http://es.geocities.com/jazzchiss/anuncio8cuerdas.html




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al-Halabi
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[*] posted on 2-6-2006 at 09:49 AM


PSab, thanks for giving the link to Naseer Shamma’s page, which shows the Arabic document described as “Al-Farabi’s Manuscript for 8 string Oud, discovered by Naseer Shamma” (http://www.naseershamma.com/farabi.html). I had not seen it previously and just read through it quickly. A couple of immediate points come out of this document’s internal evidence:

1. The oud in the detailed diagram is one of 7, not 8 courses. The names of the 7 courses (rast, ashiran, segah, nihuft, nawa, etc.) are listed twice, next to the pegs and next to the bridge. A 7-course oud actually appeared in the Middle East in the 16th century, when it was described as an innovation. It became standard in Egypt in the 18th and 19th centuries.

2. The author of the document indicates the location of the basic degrees of the Arab scale on the oud's fingerboard with the eight notes rast, dugah, segah, jahargah… kardaniya), which are identified as the first octave (al-diwan al-awwal) in the traditional two-octave range of the region's tonal system. This Persian terminology for the scale degrees (or for the names of the oud courses) was not in use in the time of al-Farabi (he used the four left hand fingers and their location on the oud's fingerboard to identify the various pitches and intervals). The Persian names for the notes became common in subsequent centuries, with various changes taking place in them over time (nawa replacing penjgah, etc.). The terminology in this particular document reflects later Arab usage, specifically of the 18th-19th centuries.

These two observations seem to point in one direction: the document is most likely Egyptian from the 18th or 19th century. The oud it displays was the common 7-course Egyptian oud of the time, for which we have literary documentation and even a surviving intact example in a museum; and the musical nomenclature it uses also belongs historically to this late period, and defintely not to al-Farabi's time in the 10th century.

Setting aside the fact that someone miscounted the number of courses on the oud and made an incorrect attribution of this document to al-Farabi, the text is still an unusual find. It documents aspects of a type of older oud that was once common but is no longer around. The bits of explanatory text in the document indicate that the anonymous author was familiar with the oud and the musical system. Such writings are really rare for the period before the 20th century.
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[*] posted on 2-6-2006 at 10:20 AM


for anybody interested, there are some nice videos on El Ashmawy's website. i enjoyed seeing them.



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[*] posted on 2-6-2006 at 03:52 PM


Al-haibi, these inconsistancies were what i think the original writer of the post was trying to point out. A question which has occupied me for a long time is, what is the reason that some of the dastgah's are named after the strings on the oud. forexample, segah and chahargah. Clearly, in both cases, the tonic could be translated, and in both cases, the popular tunning do not involve re or la as the tonic.
thank you,
pouya
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[*] posted on 2-6-2006 at 05:57 PM


Pouya, the dastgahs you mention are actually not named after the strings of the oud but after basic degrees in the Arab-Persian tonal system that developed in the medieval period. The strings of the oud were themselves named after the tones they produced in this same system. Segah, Chahargah, Mahur, Nava, and Rast-Panjgah are names of dastgahs that originated from the names of particular tones. Several dastgahs and also many Arab-Turkish maqams were named after tones that were central to them, either as tonics or because they otherwise played a dominant role in the melodic features of the mode. For example, segah (“third place” in Persian) was the name of the third note of the basic scale (the first note being yegah and later rast, and the second dugah). This note segah is the tonic of the dastgah of Segah, and it is also the tonic of maqam Segah in Arab and Turkish music. So the dastgah and maqam of Segah came to be named after the first note of their scale.
The tones in this traditional tone system did not refer to absolute pitches; they could take on any pitch, as long as the correct interval sequence was maintained.
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[*] posted on 2-7-2006 at 07:55 AM


I suggested before that Naseer Shamma should respond to this matter but got no response. So now I am suggesting that Magdy El-Ashmawy respond on this page. I have e-mailed Mr. Magdy through his website today. Hopefully we will get to hear from both gentlemen.
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[*] posted on 2-7-2006 at 08:50 AM
My 3.7 cents - after currency conversion.


:D

Quote:
Originally posted by bayati
I suggested before that Naseer Shamma should respond to this matter but got no response. So now I am suggesting that Magdy El-Ashmawy respond on this page. I have e-mailed Mr. Magdy through his website today. Hopefully we will get to hear from both gentlemen.



I do not think Naseer or El-ashmawy should answer to any of this.

Give me one good reason why should they?

We are only oud fans no more, even if some of the members is as famous as Naseer we are not a recognised organisation to judge no one. So please let's just get out of that silly mode. which I guess it's going to end up with Mike closing the thread. I could be wrong.

Many respected members asked nicely to cool off the fight and focus on the beautiful oud and their request got called "childish and frivolous".

Mr. manuscript, If there was a real issue between El ashmawy and Naseer. I guess they can sort it out thmselves. I do not think they need us "oud fans" to judge.

And if you were El ashmawy himself "I like your Nay design" , But I do not think it is wise to bring this issue here.

Sorry guys.




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Emad
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[*] posted on 2-7-2006 at 12:20 PM


nicely said Emad... Lets get back to playing oud.
Inchallah JT is going to bless us with a little taqasim.
would be nice eh?
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[*] posted on 2-7-2006 at 02:02 PM


I have just sent an email to Dr Magdy to write to us here in this forum and explain his theory to put an end to all this.
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[*] posted on 2-8-2006 at 12:45 PM
Dr. Magdy El-Ashmawy


Hi Bayati and Longa,

Thank you for letting me know about Mike's website which I was not aware was in existence and also had no idea of what was going on in it involving my name. Listen folks, it is not a dispute or a debate because the facts are already known and my answer to all this has been said by Manuscript and Al Halabi (whom I would like them to contact me through my website: http://www.elashmawyoudandnay.com, as I have some interesting pieces of knowledge I would like to share with them). I have only one point to add look at all the videos and references on my website. Notice the dates and how old everybody was at the time. I going to add another page to my site to give a detailed reply to this subject.

To Mike, Super Administrator:

Great website and as you like the videos on my website, I am going to post soon a very rare crisp piece of video footage of George Mishelle the great Egyptian player recorded in 1961 and some other great audio recordings which show who are the great oud players of the past and of our time.

P.S. This is the only time I am going to be on Mike's website, any comments must be in a civilised manner. I am sure that the Super Administrator will not allow any more childish or unpolite comments on his site.

Dr. Magdy El-Ashmay
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[*] posted on 2-8-2006 at 02:07 PM


Thanks for your comments. I was intrigued by the document and gave my comments on its anachronistic dating. I will write to you directly.
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[*] posted on 2-8-2006 at 02:18 PM


Dear Dr. Magdy thanks for the reply. You are welcome in my office anytime, I look forward to meeting with you in the near future. You now have my contact details which I e-mailed to you, hope to hear from you soon.
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[*] posted on 2-9-2006 at 11:27 AM


HI every body
Its a very dignified answer from Dr Ashmawy and for anybody who doesn't know, adding 2 more strings to the oud to make it 8 strings are the least of his contributions.

Have a look at the long neck one sound hole floating bridge metal pegs and biggest of all is the mathematical formulae which he came up with. All this together with the right string gauges gives his ouds this magnificent sustain presence which can be heard in the later version which can be seen in Hussein Saber's video.

Looking at Dr Ashmawys work that I have been following since the early 80s and in all his articles, he was stating that Alfrabi had never invented an 8 oud string. The only thing that Dr Ashmawy adopted from Alfrabi was the methodology of mathematics in music.

As far as I know the only people who researched the relation between mathematics and music in Egypt were Dr Mustafa Musharafa and Ghatas Abdel Malik Khashab and last but not least Dr Magdi Ashmawy
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[*] posted on 2-9-2006 at 04:55 PM


To Dr. Magdy El-Ashmawy,

Thank you for the clarification and answer. It would be my pleasure to meet with you the next time I am in London.

Take care and excellent work, well done!!!
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[*] posted on 2-9-2006 at 09:41 PM


Id love to post a taqasim, but Im on tour at moment and very hard to do so away from home, I promise you guys one in the future.

By the way Emad, you are too nice of a guy man, Ive heard you're playing...you modest man you...maybe you can inspire with one of yours for my tour huh?

Cheers,

JT:applause:
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[*] posted on 2-10-2006 at 07:28 AM
Lovely


:))


We all look forward to your taksim hopefully soon.


Thanks for you kind words. I only listen and copy from other people's playing.

Good Luck for your tour Joseph. You are a great source of inspiration for all of us. I am too proud of you.




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Emad
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[*] posted on 2-10-2006 at 08:25 PM
Can you check your U2U Longa ? :)


Hallo Longa

i've sent you a U2U message.

Can you check it and replay back to me

thanks :)
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[*] posted on 2-11-2006 at 02:59 PM
The origin of Nasseer Shamma's Farabi Document


To Manscript, check this out.
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[*] posted on 2-11-2006 at 03:04 PM
No Attachment


The attachment was too big, it was e-mailed to me today by Dr. Ashmawy. You can find it in page number 34, volume number 9 from The Encylopedia of the Description of Egypt, by the French Scholars in Napolean Bonaparte's time, Arabic translation by Zohair Al shayib. This is exactly the same as what Mr. Shama has produced.
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[*] posted on 2-13-2006 at 10:18 AM


Did you see the new video recording of el ashmawys site for George Michelle also have a look at the very interesting seven course oud tuning in the references section
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[*] posted on 2-13-2006 at 10:26 AM


There seem to be an awful lot of newly-registered members with an interest in this thread. Can this be just a coincidence, I ask myself? ;)
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[*] posted on 2-13-2006 at 12:08 PM


Quote:
Originally posted by David Parfitt
There seem to be an awful lot of newly-registered members with an interest in this thread. Can this be just a coincidence, I ask myself? ;)


Indeed and sometimes it also sounds like a monologue ;)




Best wishes

Ronny
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[*] posted on 2-14-2006 at 12:20 AM


Quote:
Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
Indeed and sometimes it also sounds like a monologue ;)


:D
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[*] posted on 2-14-2006 at 05:34 AM


:D
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