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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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My next next oud...
After some encouragement from Mike and some other friends, I've decided to share my next oud project. This was originally going to be another fancy
oud, but I decided, after collaborating with a friend (Sidi) to make this one a bit experimental. My two previous bowls have simply been circular in
cross-section. I'd always wanted to make a bowl with deeper parts, or flatter parts, in other words, assymetrical. I figured the best way to try a
bowl this way was to just dive in and make one. I've also corresponded with a lute-maker about this topic recently and will be sharing some of my
findings. I've learned some new techniques, and I hope some of you find them interesting. I'm sure some of you pros out there will think my techniques
are fairly obvious, but they're new to me!
First I'll post a picture of a Nahat oud that has some of the bowl shape characteristics I'm talking about. The neck end of the bowl here is quite a
bit deeper than it is at the face, so obviouly this is not a circular oud. I don't have the measurements for this particular oud, so it could be that
its not actually deeper here, but simply that the wide part of the back is flattened out, giving the appearance of a deeper section towards the neck.
But given other Nahat measurements I do have (that the back is at least as deep as half the face width, and most often more--usually about 20cm) I'm
inclined the think the former is true. Note also that the tail end "curves back" towards the face. For some, this is a comfort feature, I've always
liked it, so I was intrigued to try to duplicate it.
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Jameel
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To accomplish the "curved back" tail end, I tiltled the tail block on the mould, to an angle that looked good to my eye. I'm not sure what it is,
maybe 10 degrees? I drew the white line to illustrate the curve.
The problem this poses is that it takes a normally circular bowl and introduces a curve that is "out-of-plane" with the circle. In order for the tail
end of the rib to follow the shape of the tilted tail block, it must depart from its typical flat shape (by flat, I'm referring to the width of the
rib, not the curve along the length of the rib that gives the bowl its shape) in other words, it must be twisted. This is not so evident on the first
middle ribs, but it comes into play as the bowl nears the face.
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Jameel
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The white arrow and curve show how I've made the neck block thicker (the "steeper angle" from the pic of the Nahat) towards the bowl (the neck end of
the block remains at the typical 20mm or so, to maintain proper neck dimensions) and thus made this part of the bowl about 1cm deeper than the mould.
Ideally, the mould would reflect the desired bowl shape, but I didn't want to spend the time making a new mould for this "experimental" trial. It's
making the build a bit more tricky....
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SamirCanada
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GREAT stuff Jameel
I cant wait to follow this.
Its going to be an interesting summer.
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oudipoet
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good job jameel hope hear and see more of this oud take care
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LeeVaris
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Just Curious
I wondering what effect you expect this bowl shape to have on the sound? Or is this a comfort in holding thing? Or purely aesthetic? The shape may
have an impact on how it sits on the leg and it may change the interior volume a bit. What are your thoughts on this?
I love your adventurous spirit! Keep it up!
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Jameel
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Thanks everybody.
Lee, I think it's everything you mentioned. I'm not a scientist, but our friend Sidi has done some serious analysis of oud shapes, and he tells me
that the shape of the bowl has some effect on sound reflection. We can talk about this later when I find out more, but he mentioned to me that the
older ouds that had a deeper section more towards the middle definitely effects the reflection of the sound. Check out some of the old Nahats and
Geroges. Especially Farid's inlaid Georges oud, it is VERY deep towards the neck. As for comfort, that's more of a personal issue, since people hold
the oud differently. I tend to wrap my arm around the bottom end of the oud, so this would be more comfortable to me, but some people tend to position
their arm more over the top corner, (think John B.) perhaps negating this feature. Does your Foad have a bottom end like this? I once played a Foad
that did, and it was very comfortable. About the interior volume. Hard to say. Again, I'm no scientist. For me the only way to discover these things,
short of having knowlegdable people to collaborate with, is to simply try them.
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Jameel
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Rib Bender
Earlier this winter I made this rib bender that utilizes a heat blanket. I modelled it after the Fox side bender used for guitars. There have been
some posts recently of other members similar benders, which basically work the same, so I won't bore you with the details of mine. I'll just keep it
short and say this is, hands down, the most awesome oud-making tool I have. It used to take me literally hours to bend enough ribs for one oud. I'd
spend about 30 minutes bending a rib to match the profile, times 20 ribs, well....I don't have to do the math. That's a LONG time. With my new bender
I spent less than 30 minutes total bending all the ribs for one oud, and that includes extras.
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TruePharaoh21
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Jameel,
I feel a masterpiece in the making. Please post updates as often as possible. I can't wait until this one is finished!
TP21
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Jonathan
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Thank goodness you are posting on this. I keep looking back at your old thread, and the website, to learn whatever I can.
What wood are you using this time around?
Just a thought, here. It would be nice if somebody made an instructional video for oud making. Doc's book is great, but for novices like myself, we
could learn a great deal by watching you guys doing the work.
In the old days, apprentices could work in the master's shop. That's just not practical right now (although if I can ever swing it, I would love to
do that). So we need something from somebody that knows what they are doing. You, or Doc, or Dincer, or Haluk, or Nazih, or Maurice, or anybody that
knows their way.
A video would be the next best thing.
I can't tell you how much I am looking forward to your post.
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Hosam
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Jameel, I can not wait to follow and learn as usual from this project. Can you please post more detailed shots for you bender? What materials did you
use? how do you hold the metal sheet in place? is there any tension (sheer or pulling) that you are exerting on the rib while bending?
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Jameel
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A masterpiece? You're too gracious, TP. Jonathan, I think the video is a good idea, but how many would you sell? How many pro-oud makers are there in
this country? Maybe half a dozen? And how many hobby oud makers? About the same I would guess. Don't hold your breath. This is one reason I'd like to
have an oud symposium in this country. You could have all kinds of things like luthiery clinics, master classes, recitals. But that's a subject for
another thread. The wood is cherry.
Hosam, Richard H. is actually going to make some plans from this bender. I gave him tons of info about it, maybe drop him a line.
I'll post some more progress later today or tomorrow.
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Jameel
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Here you can see that this rib is not tight to mould. This is not much of an issue if it is corrected at the next rib. Either the rib is twisted, or
is perhaps too wide at this point. If the next rib in line is simply placed against this one, the bowl will eventually be much wider at the face. My
solution, and this applies to both circular bowls and non-circular bowls, is to adjust the angle of the rib at only the locations where it needs it.
At this spot, the angle needs to be increased to bring the rib back towards the mould, but this is not necesarily true for the entire length of the
rib. So to change the angle in this one spot, the rib must be twisted.
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Jameel
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I first take a bent rib, still square and too wide, and cut one side only to my basic curve. I then hold this up to the previous rib (after planing
the edge fairly flat, but not being finicky at this point) and see how it is falling against the mould bulkheads. I can see right away where it is
setting nicely against the mould and where it is moving away from the mould.
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oudplayer
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hey jameel
how are you ?? i cant wait till i see the outcome of this oud at the end.
i have a turist turkish oud and it sounds toristy so i wanna see what i can do with it so how would i make it more bassy or like change the sound a
lil it my sounds funny just wanna know if one could .
thx sammy
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Jameel
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It's worth mentioning here some techniques employed by lute makers. In the following photo the mould bulkheads are flattened at each rib location.
This is more important with bowls of few ribs, such as with this lute of 11 ribs. Since ouds are commonly built with 13+ ribs, and 19+ for Turkish
ouds, this feature is not as important. These flats give a much more accurate location of where the edge of the rib needs to stop. Especially for
lutes, where the back is quite flattened at the apex, these flats give an accurate shape of the rib, which as they move away from the central rib, are
not symmetrical (since the bowl itself is changing shape) As the rib is bent and twisted in order to accurately land on the flats, the shape of the
edge joint is actually a subtle s-shape, and fitting with inverted plane and sanding board becomes a bit trickier, although quite possible, since the
edge of the rib is no longer in a flat plane (the s-shape).
I think for arabic ouds with bowls of 13 and 15 ribs (most Nahats), the mould with flats would be an excellent choice, especially for bowls with
non-semicircular shapes.
See this page for some interesting pics of lute construction and especially moulds with flats.
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/rengallery/index.html
On the other hand, I'm sure a real pro would be able to shape a bowl or alter the shape without the help of the mould-with-flats, altering the shape
by eye. But for me, with only 2 bowls under my belt, I need all the help I can get!
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Jameel
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Notice the ouds in progress from the same site (David Van Edwards)
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/class.htm
Anyone know this Saber fellow?
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Jameel
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In order to impart the twist, I use one of three methods.
The first method is to heat the bent rib on the iron and twist it by hand as is heats. See pic.
The second method is to use a partially bent rib (one that is not yet bent exactly to the shape, but mostly bent) and impart the twist by bending the
rib over the iron diagonally.
See the 8th pic down on this page: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/summer2003/html/index.html
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Jameel
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The third method is to heat the rib on the iron and quickly move it to the mould, holding the area that needs the twist, and pulling on the free end,
holding it for a few seconds to set the twist. I've found this method to be very accurate and the best of the three. Notice my left hand twisting the
rib away from the mould while my right hand holds fast.
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Jameel
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Another example of the third method.
Here I'm bending a twist into the tail end of the rib (so it conforms to the tilted tail block--the "curved back" feature) by holding the hot rib
against the tail block and twisting the front end away from the mould. This twists the tail end around to fit nicely on the tail block.
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Peyman
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As everyone already said, I am very intrigued to follow this project as I did the other one. 
Have you looked at Robert Lundberg's historical construcion book? The rib fitting section is interesting. He doesn't cut the ribs to the profile first
but "shapes" them over the mold. It's rather strange but I think it's only possible because those ribs are very thin.
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Elie Riachi
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Wow Jameel, the third oud from scratch. Regarding being a scientist, there are very few things in science that were discovered based on theory alone
such as the LASER. Many were discovered and refined by observation and experiment.
Your comment regarding the positive effects on sound reflection due to deeper bowel in the middle has its merits. To draw the analogy here, you know
that there are concave spherical mirrors and concave parabolic mirrors. The better telescopes use the parabolic type because this type focuses all
the parallel light rays at one point while the spherical type doesn't really focus all the parallel light rays at one point (only the rays close to
the principal axis get focused at approximately the focal point.) With that in mind, I see the common familiar circular bowel design might have an
analogous effect in reflecting sound as the spherical mirror, while your current approach might have an improved effect analogous to the parabolic
mirror since the cross section of this bowel may look more like a parabola compared to the familiar bowel circular cross section.
I like the bender you built. About a couple of years ago I sent an email to Dr. Oud soliciting his input on a similar bender I was contemplating,
except the source of heat for mine, I think was steam passing through holes in the metal sheet. Doc's response was the "spring back" problem. I am
curious as to whether or not the wood is springing back after you bend it on this bender?
Keep up the good work buddy, you seem to always find a new "twist" on oud making.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi
...To draw the analogy here, you know that there are concave spherical mirrors and concave parabolic mirrors. The better telescopes use the parabolic
type because this type focuses all the parallel light rays at one point while the spherical type doesn't really focus all the parallel light rays at
one point (only the rays close to the principal axis get focused at approximately the focal point.) With that in mind, I see the common familiar
circular bowel design might have an analogous effect in reflecting sound as the spherical mirror, while your current approach might have an improved
effect analogous to the parabolic mirror since the cross section of this bowel may look more like a parabola compared to the familiar bowel circular
cross section... |
So professor Elie, help me understand the analogy beween light waves and sound waves. I thought sound waves are like expanding bubbles that bounce
back in complex overlapping patterns as the wave "edge" encounters reflective surfaces (like the inside of the bowel). I thought light waves are
rather linear, like a bullet or projected beam (as they scatter from the source, depending on if they are focused or not) so the reflection is much
more angular, like a ricochet. Hmmmmm?
I recently got a book about wood bending and the guy nary mentioned heat blankets. All the bending was with pre-soak in hot water or steam except for
violin ribs, which btw are bent across the grain, not along it like our oud ribs. Springback is a condition that is present anytime any material is
bent but it can be minimised by keeping the material clamped in the shape for enough time for it to normalize.
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Elie Riachi
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
So professor Elie, help me understand the analogy beween light waves and sound waves. |
Hello Doc,
You may want to look up "whispering booths" these are parabolic sound reflectors used in math to demo the geometric properties of a parabola. Also
think of satellite dishes which use the properties of a parabolic reflector to reflect electromagnetic waves on the LNB. As you know light is an
electromagnetic wave just like TV and radio waves.
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mavrothis
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Hey,
Great work and descriptions/resources as always. I'm real excited about this oud Jameel. I think it's very cool you are copying an aspect of these
older ouds that most of us have noticed, but never really thought about (the how and the why).
With this new set up you could probably create a whole bunch of very nice bowls in a short time, and then fit the rest of the pieces later...though
this might not be as much fun as making one whole instrument at a time.
Looking forward to more pics (and audio eventually!).
mav
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