Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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The horror of buying my first oud
Hello all. This is my very first post. I recently bought my first oud and it has turned out to be a terrible experience. I was wondering If some of
problems with this oud and the problems I have experienced in getting it are normal, out of the ordinary or outrageous. The oud was presented in
pictures, with sound bites and on the phone. Everything seemed fine except for a few concerns which the maker assured me he either has resolved or
were not what they appeared. The scratches on the bowl under the shallac were the rays of the wood. The tuners were all well fitted and stable. The
dimentions of the instrument corresponded to me. The sustain on the treble strings was excellant. The oud would be shipped door to door secure inside
a wooden box. There was a moment when a little alarm bell went off inside my head but I almost unconsciously trusted this luthiers reputation. Well...
having been forced to trek out to the far side of the airport to broker the oud through customs myself I was furious to find it inside a flimsy
cardboard box with very little padding. The oud has some serious problems that could not have occured during shipping. In fact if you compare the oud
to the pictures of it there is evidence of this that is not immediately appearant. It appeared to have been badly scratched and dented as if it had a
box of cutlery dumped on it. The dents and scratches however have been lacqured. The bridge is peeling away from the soundboard. The top is bulging
alarmingly even with special ultralight strings on it. The strings are buzzing. The holes on the bridge are uneven and way too low. There are nail
holes at either end of the bowl. The seams between the staves of the bowl are very inconsistant (some gaps are as wide as 1mm). Gaps are filled with
off-colour filler or not filled at all. The fingerboard appears to have been added before the neck was carved. The nut is ill fitting and very roughly
carved. Some of the tuners have more than one hole, drill exit wounds and under normal tuning conditions almost all of them are too short (when I
recieved it they seemed almost hammered in creating the illusion that they were fine). The finishing is streaky, bumpy, cloudy, grubby and there are
shallac drips on tuning pegs and on the soundboard. There are knots in the wood. It's crooked. It's not even nearly symetrical. The maker refuses to
comment on the problems of this oud. If I return it he will send me another one. That is not an option. Or he will refund my money minus shipping.
That way I would end up losing around $600 and end up with nothing. He has consented to a small refund and to send me some of the wood I will need to
do the repairs myself (I suspect because I have kept all the materials pertaining to the deal). He does not seem the least bit concerned about the
situation let alone the fact that a brand new musical instrument is unplayable and has chosen to focus his attention on the shipper despite the fact
that the shipment was not insured (little did I know). Does any of this sound reasonable. Is this an old joke or have I expected too much from a
master luthier. Any enlightenment would be most welcome.
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Marina
Oud Junkie
Posts: 615
Registered: 9-1-2005
Location: Bosnia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enthusiastic
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Have some pics of the instrument? 
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aytayfun
Oud Junkie
Posts: 201
Registered: 1-28-2006
Location: Türkiye
Member Is Offline
Mood: luthier and player
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Are you sure you bought the oud from a luthier?
Luthier means an artist. Constructing an oud is an art.Try another luthier. Artmans do not behave like this.
Dr. Tayfun AYDIN
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Amos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 405
Registered: 3-26-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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hi jake,
i had a similar experience last year with a shehata oud. however mr. shehata is not to blame for the problems as far as i know, as the oud was
previously owned when it was sold to me in unplayable condition by a member of these forums. it is a horrible experience to be excited and happy
about getting a new oud and receive garbage. i think it is important for you to inform all of us as to who the so called "luthier" sold you the
instrument so that we all can be sure not to buy from him and spread the word that his work is questionable. this kind of cheating is intolerable and
those of who love the oud are deeply offended at this kind of thing. i am very sorry this happened to you...i am sure that we can all provide you with
information about respectable luthiers and instrument sellers to make sure that next time you receive a quality instrument.
regards,
amos
Our music is like an ocean...
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mourad_X
Oud Junkie
Posts: 181
Registered: 5-4-2004
Location: Almanistan;-)
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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hi jake
sounds similar for me as well
i have same experiences with a "master luthier"
regards
mourad
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Zulkarnain
Oud Junkie
Posts: 667
Registered: 1-14-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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hi jake
i had an opposite situation on this matter. sometimes ago i decide to sell one of my oud which i think not suitable for my playing style so I bring
the oud back to the maker to refurbish it back to a good condition. the maker decided to remove some part of the oud to make it better and clean the
finishing to a brand new condition. the maker show it to me and we both happy with the new look and result. at this point i wish i could do the thing
myself but fortunately im just an oud player not a great luthier. so the oud was 100% done by the maker not me. when i sell it to this guy which
obviously a beginner in oud playing he was blaming me for some problem of the oud ie lower action that create string buzzing. so i told him that I
dont build an oud and i dont know how to repair one that make me just a seller in this situation. if theres such an issue about any problem he should
refer it back to the maker not me. the oud was sold in a brand new condition.
from this experienced maybe everybody could learn something and not just easily to attack anyone in this kind of situation. also there should be
someone to witness this as a person can simply create such story to have other people to pitty them. sad
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I would like to make it very clear that I am not looking for pity; furthermore how could it be an attack if I have not named the maker in question. I
am simply describing the condition of this oud that I have bought and asking those more experienced than myself what it means. I have not named the
maker because my experience of ouds extends to three: this one and two others that I have seen in music shops in the past.
Clearly it is unacceptable for a new ouds bridge to be detatching and for the luthier to deny this fact . But how do I know what an acceptable bulge
and buckle in the top is? How do I know what standard of workmanship and standard of finish one can expect for ones money? How could I be in a
position to judge the dimentions and proportions of this instrument?
I have not named the maker at this time nor shall I at this time post photo's of the instrument because I am still in the process of negotiating a
fair and reasonable resolution to this situation and the only leverage, the only power I have is the evidence which clearly shows deception.
I agree that it is important for the good of the community for injustice to be exposed and stopped so that others may not suffer further. However let
us also have some perspective. With the little exposure I have had so far to the oud community I suspect that there is among some perhaps an unspoken
attitude of selective consistancy. It is not a crime to build a mediocre or bad oud but it is a breach of trust to pass it off as a fine oud. I
further suspect that I did not impress upon said maker the standard of oud of which I was deserving or willing to accept.
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I guess I wasn't finished.
For those of us living in countries that do not stock selections of ouds in music shops our only option is internet, mail order, secondhand or to
travel to a place that does have oud shops.
As buyers shopping blind as it were we must be informed about what we are looking for and realistic about what we expect to find. Luthiers do deserve
respect but should not be insulted if a customer asks questions. But having said that if a luthier is deceptive or chooses to put a positive spin on a
negative thing they should not hide behind the perception of their reputation. We should have the right to reject the thing for what it truly is. That
doesn't mean it wouldnt be a gem to somebody else if they are willing to pay it's price.
I someone is honest then they should have nothing to hide. If someone is a master luthier then any instrument that comes out of his workshop should
be able to stand the scrutiny of a microscope.
Any persons best friends would not believe them capable of evils which they have not suffered at their own hands themselves. But that should not mean
that they can do what they want and call it goodness.
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Andy
Oud Junkie
Posts: 314
Registered: 10-5-2004
Location: MA
Member Is Offline
Mood: excellent
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Not too long ago a Turkish oud, made by a well known builder favored by especially one ethnic group other than the builder, was offered on ebay. The
final price was up to about $1000. It was unheard untested by the buyer but it had the makers label inside. My understanding is that the oud was not
one the makers better sounding ouds but it was stated as being a good sounding oud. It tured out that the buyer was of coutrse dis appointed in his
purchase.
Now, here you are. You bought an oud and have invested $600 for which I am guessing includes shipping from the country of the maker. I must admit that
I have bought a few oud on ebay sight unseen and untested but I will not pay more than a couple of hundred dollars for an oud sight unssen and
untested. For me there is just too much risk involved, it is a gamble. I sincerely hope you resolve this issue with the builder in your favor and if
not then I would suggest dropping his name to alert others of your misfortune and showing his instrument. There is no reason why you should have to
correct a problem that appears to be something that you did not do. To me sending the matching wood for you to fix the oud is NOT even an option. Good
Luck!
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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$600 hundred is the amount I would lose which includes bank charges, phone bills, traveling expences, warehouse fees, to say nothing of paying to have
it sent and paying to send it back if I return it. The instrument cost over a thousand. I did quite a bit of research before even contacting a maker
to try to be assured of what to expect and to lessen the risk. I did not expect to be lied to or for this maker to deny responsability for his own
work.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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I wish you the best of luck in resolving this situation.
Its a good idea to use the forrums as leverage.
Honestly you may have been victim of someone that might have seen you as a somewhat unimformed foreigner and tried to squeez one by you. Before you
reveal the name of the luthier, I think your doing the right thing in negotiating what could be done before exposing the story to the public. People
make mistakes sometimes there influenced by circumstances were not aware off. But definetly offer him to makeup for this. If nothing is done to bring
you to satisfaction then please use the forrums and reveal the identity of the maker.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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OK, I am going to be the devil's advocate here.
It might not be as bad as you think. Yes, it does sound like there are reasons for concern.
But...
The "alarming bulging" on the face might be normal. Sometimes, it can look like the whole thing is going to break. That can be normal. I am not
saying that it is in your case, but it might be.
The strings are buzzing. Hmm. When? Ouds from some places buzz more than from others. And that could be normal for that area. I hate buzzing. I
absolutely hate it. But, some slight buzzing could be normal.
The holes on the bridge are uneven. No biggie. They almost always are.
The holes on the bridge are too low. Are you sure? When you make the saddle for the string to sit in, it might be fine. String height on an oud is
adjustable in that way.
The nut is ill fitting and poorly carved. You really would have to compare this to other ouds. It is not a mass produced instrument. Variables are
OK.
The pegs have more than one hole. No big deal. I like that. Common.
The pegs are too short. Very short? With time, the peg box holes will likely get slightly larger.
It does sound like there are problems with the oud. But, it might not be as bad as you think, and it might help to have it checked out by somebody
who plays the oud before jumping to conclusions.
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SamirCanada
I wish you the best of luck in resolving this situation.
Its a good idea to use the forrums as leverage.
Honestly you may have been victim of someone that might have seen you as a somewhat unimformed foreigner and tried to squeez one by you. Before you
reveal the name of the luthier, I think your doing the right thing in negotiating what could be done before exposing the story to the public. People
make mistakes sometimes there influenced by circumstances were not aware off. But definetly offer him to makeup for this. If nothing is done to bring
you to satisfaction then please use the forrums and reveal the identity of the maker. |
I agree with you that this was a mistake which could be the result of circumstances of which we are un-aware. This could be an isolated incident and
some of the problems could be just normal or usual and not worth worrying about as Jonathan has pointed out. I hope that they are. But a detatching
bridge is unacceptable under any circumstances. The circumstances are made more suspicious though by the fact that the maker has not taken the
opportunity to resolve this just between us. In fact he has not commented on the specifics at all, except the shipping and the oud in general. But
even that is dodgey. First there are no gaps then the gaps are not important then there are no gaps again and finally he will send me the wood to
repair the gaps.Futhermore the oud was misrepresented to me before I agreed to buy it. I asked direct questions about specific subjects and the
answers to those questions have turned out to be untrue. The maker has nothing to say about this. Even as I have the oud in my hands and am describing
what I can see with my own eyes the maker is basically saying no you are wrong or not saying anything at all. What kind of a maker has nothing to say
or advise about his own work, broken or not. But in the interest of fairness I must admit that we could have communication/language problem here. I
don't think he deserves to lose buisness over this. So long as his buisness is fair and above board but at the same time why should I be expected to
protect someone who has played me for a fool by not telling the truth, or seeking help and guidence from others when his help is not forthcoming. If I
go into a shop to buy a pack of gum and the shopkeeper shortchanges me I will tell him/her and think it was a mistake. If it happens again and again I
will say yeah! nice one and tell my friends and family to count their change too. But really...... if he/she denies it and refuses to look at what I
am holding in my hand then he/she is calling me a liar and that is an injustice of a higher order. Understandably ones response would be of a higher
order also.
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revaldo29
Oud Junkie
Posts: 418
Registered: 6-24-2004
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: inspired
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Hey Jake,
There isn't really much we can tell you without seeing the damage that you are referring to. Do your best at taking some pictures without
revealing the identity of the maker. I know this might be difficult but thats the only way you can know for sure whether this maker is telling the
truth or not.
Adnan
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
OK, I am going to be the devil's advocate here.
It might not be as bad as you think. Yes, it does sound like there are reasons for concern.
But...
The "alarming bulging" on the face might be normal. Sometimes, it can look like the whole thing is going to break. That can be normal. I am not
saying that it is in your case, but it might be.
The strings are buzzing. Hmm. When? Ouds from some places buzz more than from others. And that could be normal for that area. I hate buzzing. I
absolutely hate it. But, some slight buzzing could be normal.
The holes on the bridge are uneven. No biggie. They almost always are.
The holes on the bridge are too low. Are you sure? When you make the saddle for the string to sit in, it might be fine. String height on an oud is
adjustable in that way.
The nut is ill fitting and poorly carved. You really would have to compare this to other ouds. It is not a mass produced instrument. Variables are
OK.
The pegs have more than one hole. No big deal. I like that. Common.
The pegs are too short. Very short? With time, the peg box holes will likely get slightly larger.
It does sound like there are problems with the oud. But, it might not be as bad as you think, and it might help to have it checked out by somebody
who plays the oud before jumping to conclusions. |
It's good to hear that some of these problems may be no big deal. I don't like the fact that some of the workmanship is not clean but if it's common
or normal that would be fine.
The holes on the bridge are quite low though. The saddle or cradle thingy of which you speak has to lift the strings by about 3mm in order for the
action to be anywhere close to desirable. This I have found is quite difficult to achieve comfortably. I discovered this when I took some of the
strings off to inspect the braces. I put them back on in a normal/average sort of fashion and the action at the body/neck join was less than 1mm.
You can actually see a large pie shaped portion of the ledge (which is unfinished) that the nut sits on because its too small. Also the nut has
gomme-lac on it.
I thought about the wood of the tuners and holes compressing over time which is fine. But a few of them are too short even for this. One of them does
not even come half way through the hole. To say nothing of the fact that it feels like the pegs or the holes are not perfectly round they grab.
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Greg
Administrator
Posts: 926
Registered: 7-22-2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Serene
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Jake,
As a newcomer to the oud and perhaps to hand-made instruments, your expectations may be unreasonable. Or the instrument may be as flawed as you
believe. It seems to me that the best way to proceed would be to show the instrument to an experienced oud player.
Elsewhere on these forums, the Toronto member "journeyman" refers to an oud teacher called Nabeel Shehadeh. He is apparently located in Toronto and
his number is 905-508-4785.
Regards,
Greg
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paulO
Oud Junkie
Posts: 531
Registered: 9-8-2004
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Utz
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Hi Jake,
On Pegs:
On my ouds, they fit anywhere from flush, to sticking out part way, to about three quarters of the way through, but they turn smoothly with little or
no sticking or slipping, and this is after years of use with close to zero attention to maintenace (ie. peg dope). It's not essential to have well
fitted pegs, but it does make life so much easier -- certainly any person claiming they're a "master lutheir" or just a plain old garden variety
lutheir -- would know the difference between some funko sort of fitted pegs, and really well fitted pegs ! In any case, I agree with Greg's idea. That
would be the quickest and best way to get an idea -- or as others have suggested, post some photos ! Good luck.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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After reading your last comment on what I had previously advised you.
I must agree with the way you feel and I hope you achieve the reasonable level of satisfaction you diserve as a customer.
I hope you resolve this in the best way possible.
If you do post pictures it might help you determine wether or not your expectations were too high or not. But it will compromise the identity of the
maker. Just make shure you have ran out of options with the maker itself before doing so.
Samir,
hoping for this crisis to be resolved honorably.
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Greg
Jake,
As a newcomer to the oud and perhaps to hand-made instruments, your expectations may be unreasonable. Or the instrument may be as flawed as you
believe. It seems to me that the best way to proceed would be to show the instrument to an experienced oud player.
Elsewhere on these forums, the Toronto member "journeyman" refers to an oud teacher called Nabeel Shehadeh. He is apparently located in Toronto and
his number is 905-508-4785.
Regards,
Greg |
Many thanks for the phone number. I will give it a try.
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SamirCanada
After reading your last comment on what I had previously advised you.
I must agree with the way you feel and I hope you achieve the reasonable level of satisfaction you diserve as a customer.
I hope you resolve this in the best way possible.
If you do post pictures it might help you determine wether or not your expectations were too high or not. But it will compromise the identity of the
maker. Just make shure you have ran out of options with the maker itself before doing so.
Samir,
hoping for this crisis to be resolved honorably. |
I agree and will make sure as you say. However, part of me feels that if no harm was done on the part of the maker, if a mistake or an accident has
occured, then there can be no harm in sharing pictures of the oud or the circumstances of it's sale. Having said that, I would never want to leave an
impression or make a judgement that was untrue or inaccurate and shall do my best to avoid doing so as you suggest.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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Your right then... if you feel like the work should speak for the maker then go ahead and post the pictures of the work.
I was just trying to let you know that since members here are quite familiar with the different ouds arround we'll know right away who made the oud.
Even if you dont say who it is.
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