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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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What if it's true! So your buying an oud?
What if you want to buy an oud? What if there are no ouds in shops where you live? What if you decide to invest in a top notch oud for it's sound,
it's playability, it's stability, and even it's re-sale value? What if you find a maker that is recommended, is said to be honest, has an oud that
catches your eye, answers your doubts, assures you of it's quality? What if he sends you garbage?
What follows are a few things to think about before you pull the trigger, send the money and wait like a child on christmas eve for that oud to
arrive. A description of my experiences buying my first oud are contained in the topic titled "The horror of buying my first oud"
It is very possible that what is acceptable to the maker or in general in terms of the degree of cleanliness, workmanship, precision and polish of an
oud is not acceptable to you. Be sure you understand what you are getting. Having said that, at the end of the day, the only things of real
consequence to a player and not just a collector are sound, playability and stability. Be utterly convinced you understand what you are getting in
terms of sound, playability and stability and then
realize that those fundamental things are still at risk. You will never know untill you get the oud or if you have personally dealt with the maker
before.
Do not completely trust any mail order vendor even one with the best reputation. If you don't ask questions about your concerns they will have no
reason to resolve your concerns. And you will have no recourse to complain about a breach of trust. Even if they send you a tooth pick you may have no
recourse. In the worst case they may give you lies or over-spun half truths in order to close the deal. Seriously ask your self if you are risking
anything you can not afford to lose.
A vendor's job; or in most cases a maker's, is to get their products out the door in exchange for money. Money is at best the thing that allows them
to build instruments and at worst the reason why they build or sell instruments. Even a master luthier who loves music and those who play it, long ago
came to terms with the fact that they may never see the instrument or you again. The money is an entirely different matter.
You may never know if they care about your satisfaction untill long after the dust has cleared and the onus and the power has changed hands along with
the instrument and the money. The onus is on them to prove that the instrument is worth the money and the power is with you because you can say no
thanks. But once you have made an exchange of goods and payment the onus is on you to prove that the transaction is worthy enough of being voided that
they would agree to take back something they were happy to part with in the first place and willing to part with something that was the whole reason
for them offering it in the first place.
Suffice to say that even if they send you a tooth pick and call it a Nahat, the responsability is with you, the losses are with you because they did
not take your money, you gave it to them. And as far as re-gaining the money you have paid for shipping, banking, importation, etc., etc., etc., The
line between salesmanship and deception can be a fuzzy thing. And it won't be you who sets the standard. If there has been immoral tactics; how hard
would it be for a person who has committed them, to deny them?
What if the worst case is possible in your case? Well........
Do what you can, to minimize the risk, before you have parted with your money. And having done that, if you are still risking more than you can afford
to lose; DON'T DO IT.
Ask questions, ask for sound samples, ask to hear the oud over the phone, ask for photo's, ask for more photo's, make sure they answer every question,
get a translator or a broker if you feel it is needed. How loud is the instrument? What kind of strings, guages, tensions, tuning; did it have on it
for the sample? Does the instrument have a balanced response from the lowest note to the highest note? Are there any scratches, dents, flaws, gaps in
the wood, the finish, the glue joints? Is the wood as stable as it should be? Are the tuning pegs as stable as they could be?
Even if you are satisfied with what you have seen and what you have heard; please remember, the way you perceive it may bear little resemblance to the
ouds appearance, live acoustic sound, performance and longevity.
An honest luthier or vendor may feel a little uneasy about your questions. They may feel that your expectations are unreasonable or at worst that you
are someone who entertains themselves by being a pest ( I have been accused of both despite the photographic and conversational evidence that the oud
I have recieved is flawed by any standards). A dishonest maker or vendor will use this perception to prevent you from asking questions. If you feel
that the negotiation is being sidetracked or even de-railed then drop out. Never let your desire for the instrument you imagine, cloud your perception
of the instrument you are buying.
Ask about return policies. If the maker is offering quality products and is confident of your level of commitment to that particular instrument, this
should not be a problem.
Ask about shipping options. Is it a company that has branch offices in the place where you live? Will it travel to you via a single carrier? Will the
shipment be insured? Who will carry the insurance? Does the insurance apply to the whole journey?
At the end of the day you may do everything you can think of to gain a clear picture of the oud you are interested in. You may take every little doubt
and fear seriously and not proceed untill your concerns have been resolved. You may feel, despite a clear head and a desire to remain objective, a
little bit of elation creeping into your consciousness. You may allow yourself to believe that one day quite soon you will have a new musical
instrument, full of possability and potential. Even then you may end up with a toothpick, that amounts to a boot in the head.
And there may be nothing you can do about it.
If you can live with that.........proceed.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Jake,
I hear you. I was in the same boat years ago. I lost over $750 when I got screwed-over by someone. The oud was good, but my naivete was taken
advantage of, so I paid way too much. (It was at that point that I decided I should try making the things instead of going all the way to the Middle
East to buy one.) The situation has improved slightly, but there will never be a replacement for seeing the instrument in person before you drop your
cash. Having said that, I think the next best thing would be an oud dealer that can provide detailed descriptions of each instrument, a comprehensive
system for grading the ouds (fit and finish, sound quality, sound character, playability, durability, function, etc.), and the knowledge and time to
be able to choose an instrument based on a customer's budget and requirements. Unfortunately, I know of no place like this. Not Lark in the Morning,
not Ukelele World, not Mid East, nobody. You would think in a country this size, that there would be at least one oud dealer offering all the popular
names like Shehata, Ghadban, Turunz, Foad, etc. Maybe the demand isn't there, but it would be a nice shop. There would be a good return policy, so you
wouldn't get screwed, and the shipping costs would not be outrageous. Maybe after the oud gains in popularity (it was happening up until
9/11--remember Sting and Cheb Khaled's popular song? --it was even peformed at the Grammys, with S. Shaheen conducting the orchestra) a shop like this
might pop up. But I wouldn't hold your breath. Next time, do your best to try an instrument before spending the money. It solves almost every problem
you mentioned.
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syrianoud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 631
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jake
What if you want to buy an oud? What if there are no ouds in shops where you live? What if you decide to invest in a top notch oud for it's sound,
it's playability, it's stability, and even it's re-sale value? What if you find a maker that is recommended, is said to be honest, has an oud that
catches your eye, answers your doubts, assures you of it's quality? What if he sends you garbage?
What follows are a few things to think about before you pull the trigger, send the money and wait like a child on christmas eve for that oud to
arrive. A description of my experiences buying my first oud are contained in the topic titled "The horror of buying my first oud"
It is very possible that what is acceptable to the maker or in general in terms of the degree of cleanliness, workmanship, precision and polish of an
oud is not acceptable to you. Be sure you understand what you are getting. Having said that, at the end of the day, the only things of real
consequence to a player and not just a collector are sound, playability and stability. Be utterly convinced you understand what you are getting in
terms of sound, playability and stability and then
realize that those fundamental things are still at risk. You will never know untill you get the oud or if you have personally dealt with the maker
before.
Do not completely trust any mail order vendor even one with the best reputation. If you don't ask questions about your concerns they will have no
reason to resolve your concerns. And you will have no recourse to complain about a breach of trust. Even if they send you a tooth pick you may have no
recourse. In the worst case they may give you lies or over-spun half truths in order to close the deal. Seriously ask your self if you are risking
anything you can not afford to lose.
A vendor's job; or in most cases a maker's, is to get their products out the door in exchange for money. Money is at best the thing that allows them
to build instruments and at worst the reason why they build or sell instruments. Even a master luthier who loves music and those who play it, long ago
came to terms with the fact that they may never see the instrument or you again. The money is an entirely different matter.
You may never know if they care about your satisfaction untill long after the dust has cleared and the onus and the power has changed hands along with
the instrument and the money. The onus is on them to prove that the instrument is worth the money and the power is with you because you can say no
thanks. But once you have made an exchange of goods and payment the onus is on you to prove that the transaction is worthy enough of being voided that
they would agree to take back something they were happy to part with in the first place and willing to part with something that was the whole reason
for them offering it in the first place.
Suffice to say that even if they send you a tooth pick and call it a Nahat, the responsability is with you, the losses are with you because they did
not take your money, you gave it to them. And as far as re-gaining the money you have paid for shipping, banking, importation, etc., etc., etc., The
line between salesmanship and deception can be a fuzzy thing. And it won't be you who sets the standard. If there has been immoral tactics; how hard
would it be for a person who has committed them, to deny them?
What if the worst case is possible in your case? Well........
Do what you can, to minimize the risk, before you have parted with your money. And having done that, if you are still risking more than you can afford
to lose; DON'T DO IT.
Ask questions, ask for sound samples, ask to hear the oud over the phone, ask for photo's, ask for more photo's, make sure they answer every question,
get a translator or a broker if you feel it is needed. How loud is the instrument? What kind of strings, guages, tensions, tuning; did it have on it
for the sample? Does the instrument have a balanced response from the lowest note to the highest note? Are there any scratches, dents, flaws, gaps in
the wood, the finish, the glue joints? Is the wood as stable as it should be? Are the tuning pegs as stable as they could be?
Even if you are satisfied with what you have seen and what you have heard; please remember, the way you perceive it may bear little resemblance to the
ouds appearance, live acoustic sound, performance and longevity.
An honest luthier or vendor may feel a little uneasy about your questions. They may feel that your expectations are unreasonable or at worst that you
are someone who entertains themselves by being a pest ( I have been accused of both despite the photographic and conversational evidence that the oud
I have recieved is flawed by any standards). A dishonest maker or vendor will use this perception to prevent you from asking questions. If you feel
that the negotiation is being sidetracked or even de-railed then drop out. Never let your desire for the instrument you imagine, cloud your perception
of the instrument you are buying.
Ask about return policies. If the maker is offering quality products and is confident of your level of commitment to that particular instrument, this
should not be a problem.
Ask about shipping options. Is it a company that has branch offices in the place where you live? Will it travel to you via a single carrier? Will the
shipment be insured? Who will carry the insurance? Does the insurance apply to the whole journey?
At the end of the day you may do everything you can think of to gain a clear picture of the oud you are interested in. You may take every little doubt
and fear seriously and not proceed untill your concerns have been resolved. You may feel, despite a clear head and a desire to remain objective, a
little bit of elation creeping into your consciousness. You may allow yourself to believe that one day quite soon you will have a new musical
instrument, full of possability and potential. Even then you may end up with a toothpick, that amounts to a boot in the head.
And there may be nothing you can do about it.
If you can live with that.........proceed. |
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syrianoud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 631
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Why you keep posting so much BS.I think that Mike & Greg should baned you from these forums..You are involving so many people with your BS. No one
will respond to a crazy guy like you that sends million emails to so many people. Most of us has deleted all your emails and never opened one and
looked at it..Just stop sending non sence U2U and emails..ONLY Ediots will respond to your posts ....Stop it you are a bother to every one.
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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All I want Is for someone to confirm what I can see with my own eyes and for this juvenile code of silence to end. If there is nothing foul about the
oud that I have bought then what is the harm of commenting on it. I suspect that there have been quite a few things deleted from this forum that a
newcomer like me would have done well to read. How dare you talk to me like that. All I am doing is telling the truth. Honest men do not fear or
stifle the truth nor their North American Distributors.
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
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It seems like a lot of people tried to help you in your other thread but we can only go so far when you're unwilling to post pictures so more
experienced players can confirm your suspicions.
I think it's fair to say you will no longer do business with whomever you received this oud from so I don't see any harm in posting pictures if they
are truly representative of what you are saying.
How much did you actually pay for the oud? I know you said $600 but you were including bank charges, travel, etc. Also, did you buy the oud directly
from a lutheir, ebay, online store, etc?
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I bought it directly from a luthier and it cost $1650us. I have not posted pictures on the forum but I have forwarded pictures to a few people who
have experience and expressed an interest in helping. They have had absolutly nothing to say. The maker has nothing to say. So it's silent treatment
all round punctuated by cheap insults and scepticism. One option is to take it to a local expert in person but a person recommended by the very people
who have nothing to say and who appearantly consider me a pest. I could care less about the opinions of those who could so easily open a dialogue and
choose not to. Silence can be deafening.
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revaldo29
Oud Junkie
Posts: 418
Registered: 6-24-2004
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: inspired
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Jake, when you say the people who looked at your oud had nothing to say, what do you mean by that? Could they not find anything wrong with it? I don't
see the point of all this reluctance to post a picture. I also see no need for the hostile remarks.
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
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If you're already passing around the pictures might as well post them for us all to see. I think you're overestimating people's ability to critique
the work a luthier. There have been many threads where people have said they're not fans of Shehata, Sukar, Haluk, etc. Everyone likes different
things.
I think Nahat is the only luthier immune from ridicule 
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I see no need for hostility either.
I have not had the opportunity to show the oud to an oud expert in person. I have sent out photographs in an effort to get some perspective on the
seriousness of the ouds flaws.
At first I was shocked at the shabbiness of the oud. I then considered the possability of fixing it up. But the more I have found out the more I have
come to realize that the sound, playability, and stability of the instrument will take more work than it may possibly be worth, even as a temporary
instrument. I can reattach the bridge quite easily but the soundboard is definitly of inferior wood with inconsistant stiffness. I have tested its
response to a range of frequencies and it has little or no ability to project high frequencies. The tuning pegs can be refitted or replaced but the
fingerboard will never be wide enough to accomodate my large fingertips.
It's other flaws are too many to remedy without replacing each part in it's turn so whats the point. Granted alot of it is seemingly cosmetic but I'm
never going to feel good about an instrument that requires so much at such a young age.
There is no way back from where this has gone. I have done and said everything I am willing to say and do. I have been more than fair and accomodating
to those involved. I have accepted the help of those with more knowledge and influence than myself only to find that help non-existant. I have
described the oud and the sale of that oud truthfully only to find my character attacked. The issue is not how to convince me it's OK or failing that
have me percieved as a mental case, the issue is what can be done to either make this oud acceptable or bring the transaction to an acceptable
conclusion. There is no reason why anyone should have to be on the front page so long as we all look at what is infront of our faces and call it what
it is.
This is not entertainment this is a real situation that is unacceptable. And I am a real person who is suffering something that he does not deserve.
The time has come where diplomacy has failed and a discrete resolution is impossible. In short the time has come for me to expose the maker of this
oud for the liar that he is. But I'm not going to. Because if you can think of any reason why you shouldn't do something; don't do it. And I can.
But I have run out of time and I have run out of patience so let's pretend that everything is wonderful and that everyone is wonderful. Let's pretend
that we can all do what we want to do and never have to get our hands dirty and never have to put ourselves on the line for the sake of what is right
and true and that nasty man with all the ugly things to say will just go away.
That's it I'm done!
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David Parfitt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 629
Registered: 11-16-2003
Location: Devon, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Jake, either put up or shut up. You are wasting everyone's time here.
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oudplayer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 849
Registered: 5-9-2004
Location: new jersey/ Israel
Member Is Offline
Mood: ouds up
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hey
as the syrians say haj already
sammy
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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wa bokra fi mishmish 
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I can't figure out the reason for the hostility toward this guy's post.
He has not even mentioned the luthier's name!
And I think that there are valid points that he raises.
Finally, if we banned everybody that made a negative comment about a luthier's work, Jake would not be the only one banned. I have certainly seen a
much more aggressive attack on a luthier before on these boards.
Sorry, Jake, that your experience in the oud world has thus far been negative. Don't let it discourage you from the instrument.
When you can, purchase an oud only after seeing and playing it. Not an easy task in Canada (or the US).
I stand by my other post, though, in which I stated that I didn't think that all of the flaws that you pointed out were actually flaws. No need to
re-post that here.
You have nothing to lose by posting pictures.
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
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I don't think anyone is being hostile towards him. I would love to see this $1650 oud that is complete junk.
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syrianoud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 631
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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JASON.....I have seen that oud , he was refunded $250.00 and parts will be shipped to him ASAP. But this guy is still complaining non stop. He was
offered earlier to returb the oud , BUT he refused and asked to get a $250.00 refund and get new Brigge and Pegs and other things...But he is still
complaining. He had an option to return it less shipping coast but he refused.So what else this guy wants???Looks like a FREE Oud...I spoke to him and
tried to solve his problem but again from my phone call with him , I understood like he wants a FREE OUD...Soryy i will not try to help him again and
I am not answering his Emails....He can go to where ever he wants....Regards Samir ,California
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syrianoud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 631
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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PS Jason you know me very well.We delt before....Thanks Samir...
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
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Yes you have always been very kind to me Samir and I can see why you are upset. It's an unfortunate situation for all. I hope some good can come of
it. If this oud is from who I think it's from I have no doubt he could sell the oud and get his money back fairly easily.
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syrianoud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 631
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jason
Yes you have always been very kind to me Samir and I can see why you are upset. It's an unfortunate situation for all. I hope some good can come of
it. If this oud is from who I think it's from I have no doubt he could sell the oud and get his money back fairly easily. |
Yes Jason ..It is a great Oud.I was going to send him his money less shipping and solve the problem but he was redicules and did not give me any
chance to say anything.He kept talking over the phone for ever.i was told by mt friend to solve it , since i was in my way a few days before the war
started.But here i am still here waiting for the war to stop to be in my way to Lebaon for my wedding..
Jason God bless you my friend and if you need anything dont hesistate to ask..Regards Samir....
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Jake
Oud Addict
Posts: 25
Registered: 7-14-2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Let me clear this up once and for all since Mr. Syrianoud has decided to resort to trash talk rather than simply talk to me in person. I was under the
impression that you phoned me in order to bridge any communication problems. I stated my case you said you would talk to the maker (who name let's
face it you have dropped) and promised to call me back which you did not. We both agreed that a mistake of some kind had occured and that a fair
resolution was possible. The next e-mail I recieved made it quite clear that negotiations had broken down.
I was offered to send it back for a refund minus shipping but as I have clearly stated from the beginning I do not consider this fair. It would result
in no oud for me, a loss of $600 which amounts to me paying for something that is not my fault, a very different oud to the one I agreed to pay for
and paying for shipping I have not recieved.
I do not want a free oud. I want a fair outcome to a nasty situation.
I have not sent a million e-mails. I have sent just as many e-mails as it takes to realize that no-one intends to answer me.
I am not complaining or wasting time. I see no sense in that. I am simply establishing a dialogue on a subject that concerns me and I would think is
the concern of these forums.
You have made it very clear that negotiations are over and perhaps never existed in the first place.
I did agree to the maker's final ultimatum as it seemed my only option but he has not followed through on our agreement and it has since come to light
that this oud needs much more work than it at first appeared and may never be as playable as it should be. I have also run out of time in which to
make those repairs. That is why I changed my mind and communicated my intention to accept a previous offer of a refund minus shipping. Even if I never
see a penny at least I will not have to look at that oud again.
This oud was pictured as better than it really is. It did sound better than it really sounds. It was not shipped to me in the manner which was
promised. It was not damaged in shipping. The scratches and dents are underneath the varnish. The bridge is poorly attached. The soundboard is
inferior wood. The gaps between the staves, on the face and in the neck and head are original to it's construction. The tuning pegs are badly carved.
I was concerned about the flaws that were appearant to me before I sent my money. The maker did tell me that there are no gaps, or flaws in the oud. I
did send my money based on the trust I had in the maker's explanations.
I will be posting photo's of the oud as soon as possible.
Clearly I have lost my money and my enthusiasm for the oud, to say nothing of my budget with which to buy a new instrument. But this has become bigger
than just my personal losses.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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Jake has asked me to post the pictures. It's kind of a pain to upload them here, so I wil host them temporarily myself. view them here:
Jake's Oud Photos
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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I'm not taking sides here, but I wanted to offer my opinion (for whatever it's worth):
My general feeling is that the oud does have significant flaws, notably the poorly drilled string holes, the chipped band where the neck meets the
body, the scratches in the face, and the separation of the binding around the face.
Of these, only the string holes are a playability concern. The rest are essentially cosmetic.
While I have to agree that a $1650 oud should not have these cosmetic problems, the reality is that this is not unusual (I would say that I am a
little surprised coming from Mr. Ghadban, based on my previous experience with his instruments and his reputation).
The scratches do appear to be deep and in the finish, not a byproduct of shipping damages. The chipped neck band could be the result of shipping
problems.
I do not see significant gaps in the ribs or face. maybe this is only noticeable in person. When you hold the oud up to the light and look through
the soundhole, does light come through between the ribs? As long as the gaps are minor and properly filled in, I think this is acceptable. If not,
then the complaint is reasonable.
As for the soundboard being inferior wood: it seems to be good quality from the photos. Inferior is a strictly relative term, so the question is:
inferior to what (and how)?
The bridge does not seem poorly attached. If it comes off or is clearly loose, then complaints are warranted.
The pegs are not perfect, but appear to be within normal standards for ouds in this price range. Jake, I hope you numbered them or something because
matching the pegs back to the correct holes is important to a good fit. It's impossible to tell from the photos whether or not they fit well or are
too short as you say. More than one hole for strings is common and not generally considered a flaw.
the bend in the face is perfectly normal and not a flaw.
the gap between the neck and headstock seems within acceptable limits, as long as it is stable (which I can't tell from photos).
The nut looks fine to me (at least normal and way better than most oud nuts)
I don't see any knots in the wood, blemishes in the finish, or problems with symmetry or crookedness. Maybe these are more perceptible in person.
The nails are an aesthetic issue, as long as they're not protruding. I wouldn't personally regard them as a flaw; it's just a different attitude
about how instruments should look. I imagine Nazih just believes it's okay to see them.
Regarding sound issues, buzzing, and playability:
Since this is your first oud, I'm assuming you don't know how to play it yet. Correct me if I'm mistaken and you have in fact studied oud before.
Sound production on the oud is very different from any other stringed instrument, even other plectrum-based instruments. Common problems from poor
technique are: poor projection, poor sustain, dull sound, and buzzing.
I'm not saying that your sound issues with the oud aren't geniune, but that you can't really evaluate them since you're not an accomplished oud player
(again, I'm assuming. If I'm wrong, my apologies). I think this is why an evaluation from a professional player in your area would help.
Of all the issues with the oud you mentioned, only the string holes affect playability, so to say that the oud is unplayable seems an exaggeration.
It may not be ideal, but it certainly seems playable and far better than the average. Correcting the string holes is a simple repair (not saying it's
okay to get an oud that need repairs, but it happens). Re. string height: the loop of the string affords a lot of room to adjust the height of the
strings. Ouds typically have very low action, since the strings do not need to clear any frets.
In short, the oud seems to be mostly within the range of what is generally acceptable. It is flawed, but I would be surprised to find any Arabic oud
that did not have some comparable flaws, in any price range.
There are some more serious flaws, but overall the instrument seems playable and structurally sound.
I emphasize SEEMS, because some of the alleged issues are unable to be verified or refuted based on mere photos.
As a nonpartisan observer, I suggest the following:
Nazih should offer a partial refund, in essence a discount for the more serious flaws (string holes, scratches, chipped neck band)
Jake should accept that his expectations were a little unrealistic, given that ouds are traditional handmade instruments and not usually cosmetically
flawless, and acknowledge the oud is basically okay (playability and sound) aside from the noted flaws.
A handmade guitar in the US will be flawless or nearly so, but will cost upwards of $3500 (with $15000 and up being common for top makers). So i think
$1650 has to be viewed in this context when judging cosmetics.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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I just wanted to clarify that my comments about what is acceptable or not is not meant to be absolute, but in reference to standard or typical
expectations among people familiar with Arabic ouds.
So I'm not saying Jake was wrong to expect cleaner work.
If I bought a guitar and it had similar issues, I would be (rightfully) outraged if the maker didn't offer me a refund. However, this is not a guitar
and for better or worse, this workmanship is not substandard.
I know many people here are friends with Nazih or own his ouds and wish to defend him . . . but hopefully we can avoid open hostility.
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
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I would concur with everything you said Brian. I was also comparing the oud to various handmade guitars in that price range and in most cases it's
comparable to what one should expect in my opinion. It does seem to me that the standard for cosmetics in traditional instruments like oud, dulcimer,
etc. is lower than for instruments like electric guitar or electric bass. If Jake comes from this background it could further explain his dismay at
seeing the flaws.
I would compare the oud more to classical guitars than anything else. While $1650 is a lot of money, it's still expected for one to find flaws at
that price. I have friends with guitars that cost $4000 and are still not 'perfect'.
I hope things work out to your satisfaction Jake. I still believe you should try to sell the oud if you're still dissapointed.
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DJdog
Oud Addict
Posts: 26
Registered: 4-1-2006
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I still remember my dimay, 25years ago, when I switched from Renaissance lute to oud. The careful, elegant craftsmanship that I was used to for
British and American made lutes was not to be found with the Syrian, Egyptian and Turkish ouds I purchased. Glue was evident, some seams were not
tight, the pegs either slipped or wouldn't move, and the inside of the pegbox was unfinished, etc.etc.
The situation changed when I spend a few thousand dollars on an Abdo Nahhat, and even more on a Manol. I now play a Fou'ad oud whose pegs I've
replaced with rosewoodviola pegs, and a Tayyar oud whose craftsmanship is as superb as that found in any Renaissance lute. Remember that violinists
are used to paying twenty or thirty thousand dollars for a decent instrument. The main thing is how the oud sounds and feels. If your new instrument
sounds fine, then replace the pegs, replace the nut, have new hole drilled and ENJOY THE SOUND and ENJOY PLAYING!
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