| Pages:
1
2
3 |
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
New project
Hello fellas, I have come accross a nice oud for my next restoration project.
I will be taking my time for this one so that I can get all the advice I can and so that I do things right. I have a few questions right off the bat.
I have Doc's book but my first questions are related towards the wood working aspect not so much specific to oud making.
After my bateries charge I'll put some pictures up.
I have a oud wich Iam changing the Face and the fingerboard.
The bowl, neck and peg box remain untouched.
Iam going to join the 2 halves of the cedar sound board now soon. The jig is set up but I just have some quick questions.
Anyone heard of Gorilla Glue? I used it to glue a fingerboard on my last project and i got a really strong bond only thing is it takes a longer time
to set. Do you think its a good idea to use on the soundboard?
How do I go about making it the right thickness. What grit should I use at first on the sanding stick I'll make to take down the thickness? right now
its 4mm thick...
So I ordered a ebony fingerboard from LMI.
Its my first time working with ebony, I know its toxic so I'll be working with a mask. But how do I make it the right thickness its about 8 mm right
now.
I dont have a honing guide for my stanley type plane and I cant sharpen properly by the eye. And I cant use a plane properly since it seems I always
make cuts too deep or I dont set it up right...
ITs going to be toooo much sanding to take down to a good level so that option I would rather not take.
So Bandsaw? now I need to buy a resawing blade but do you have any sugestions? the thicker the better as long as my machine can take it I guess...
right? The thing Is I never set up my bandsaw with any succes the blade is the factory one so once I change it, it should make a world of
difference.
My Last question is about installing binding on the face. I have nice indian rosewood binding material. Now what's the proper way to install it?
should I bend it a little? cut it in peices and install it like tiles?
|
|
|
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Looking forward to seeing your progress.
There are different schools of thought on glues. AR glue (yellow carpenter's) has some problems with creep (it doesn't get hard and brittle, so the
sides can actually slip along their length). Gorilla glue does get hard and glassy, but it may have some other drawbacks. You might want to do some
reading over at the MIMF. Hide of course is the best choice. Maybe Richard could offer some additional advice as well.
My advice for thicknessing things would be two-fold. For getting very close and good results, pick up a saf-t-planer (lmii has them). It works on a
drill press (I think you have one, right?) Your bandsaw is good for getting close, but its not for thicknessing. The saf-t-planer is a widely used
tool, and for small work (fingerboards, unjoined tops) is very good. The second part you have to do, without fail, is to tune up your hand plane,
learn how to use it, and learn how to sharpen to a razor edge. Trust me, taking the time to learn hand planing and sharpening is well worth your time.
With a small array of hand planes you can thickness anything you want. When I first got into serious woodworking I built whole pieces of furniture
without a jointer or planer, hand planes only. It was the single most valuable lesson in woodworking. Go to the library and get any book by Taunton on
hand planes (you could also spend $35 to subscribe to Fine Woodworking's website and have access to 1000s of good articles). Get some scrap wood and
practice planing until you can put a mirror smooth finish on maple. You won't regret it, and you'll learn a ton about wood in general. Once it clicks,
its almost a religious experience.
Can you tell I like handplaning?
|
|
|
Hosam
Oud Junkie
Posts: 180
Registered: 12-6-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hey Samir, good luck with your project. If you like pictures like me  ; I
recommend Taunton’s complete illustrated guide to Using Woodworking Tools by Lonnie Bird. There is a section about planes and planning, try your
local library.
According to what I have read, I will not try to thickness sand a piece of wood to the correct dimension unless it is very close to the desired
thickness. I will also use a respirator not a dust mask, 3M are good and not expensive. The fine wood dust is really nasty; it will remain airborne
for long period of time in your workshop and will probably circulate to the rest of the house. If you have an air filter/purifier, use it and let it
run after you are done working for few hours. If you have power tools, a dust collection is a must.
Waiting to see pictures!
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks Jameel... I will look into the Saf-t Planner.
I dont have a drill press but I could get one. On the other hand what do you think about those automatic planers? any good?
Iam just skeptical wether any of these tools can get trough this ebony.
I didnt find anything about the gorilla glue so Iam gona go ahead and use it. It will be an experiment for all to see at the same time.
Thanks for the tips Hosam.
I found something with Jameel'S help that's going to get me long way with my plane but it will take me some time to actualy set up and customize it
properly.
|
|
|
Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mahoor
|
|
Hey Samir,
I wouldn't use a safe-t planer on the face wood. The planer is a pretty violent tool. I have one and use it often. It can leave deep dents. So if you
have an expensive piece of wood, it's not a good idea. But you can use it for the ebony. I used a cabinet scraper to thin out spruce. It's a bit slow
but it's precise.
Good luck
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Ok... here are some pictures
The whole shabang.
Cedar face, brace material, ebony fingerboard, indian rosewood binding.
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Joined the top. You can see the news paper peices still left on from gluing process. In the picture after you can see I started taking some of it off
with a chisel but I realized that Its not worth it since its all comming off anyways when I thin it.
I made a sanding stick the way Doc.O mentions it in his book. But god..... it looks like its gona be long and nasty to do. I hate dust. I love those
cute little curly shavings
So Iam really motivated to get my plane as sharp as possible.
In the 3rd pic... you can see the brige in the building process. I made it from 20 year old cocobolo.
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
second top pic
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
brige being made
|
|
|
Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
|
|
fun fun...enjoying watching this project my man.
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Hey Mike thanks for your encouragement. I hope it will turn out nicely... we'll see. I have to out do my self now that I know your paying attention
Jameel, Hosam and Peyman thank you soo much for your suport up to now.
I found something really nice at LeeValley since there located right next to my house its really interesting to browse there displays.
Here it is. Its a scraper attachement for a regular stanley plane.
What do you guys think? worth it? Its not expensive compared to buying another plane. But would I just be better off with buying a cabinet scraper?
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&cat=1,310&p=326...
The other neat discovery I tried out and i fell it love with is using sets of fine sandpaper to do the sharpening. I never got to know how to use the
oil stone properly so this is a big improvement in my opinion.
I found the "scarry sharp" sand paper sharpening technique on the internet and it turned out to perfection.
Thanks Jameel again for the plane tune up instructions you sent me. Verry usefull.
|
|
|
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Samir,
First, I'm really jealous that you live next to Lee Valley. You are lucky!
The scraper attachment is a great tool for planing difficult woods, like ebony or figured wood, or even spruce or cedar if sharpened well. It's a good
buy Samir. It doesnt replace a card scraper (cabinet scraper) though. You'll need a good card scraper for hand work, curves and small areas. I use a
card scraper all the time. You can also use a block plane blade as a scraper. It has different applications since its not as flexible, but it can be
an awesome tool. Here's a pic of Yaroub Fadel using a blade as a scraper. Great for hogging off big shavings, or fine ones, depending on how hard you
push. Just remember that Robert Lundberg built his lutes without the use of sandpaper. It take some serious skill, but its a good motivating factor to
remember.
|
|
|
Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
|
|
The bridge looks like some hardwood, so I was wondering why you choose it? Every oud I've worked on has a bridge made of rather light weight medium
hardwood, mostly walnut, sometimes maple, but never rosewood or anything heavy. The weight of the bridge does affect the sustain of the sound as any
additional weight diminishes the vibration. Just some food for thought.
|
|
|
Hosam
Oud Junkie
Posts: 180
Registered: 12-6-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hello Richard,
I thought that ebony was used for bridges and for the pick guards especially on older ouds.
Mike and Jameel, any idea what kind of wood was used for the Hifnawi oud bridge and pick guard?
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Thanks for the advice Doc.
Its something I have put some thought into. I have been thinking about the type of sound I want to produce. And I would like to aim for a deeper sound
on the basses while have verry little overtones. I would like the trebles to sound like they are lamenting. But in a way I thought that using a
heavier brige could affect the verry ringy treble sound I dont like in ouds personaly.
Also I have a rough Idea of how to make the braces but for the fine tuning of them how should I aproache it?
|
|
|
palestine48
Oud Junkie
Posts: 448
Registered: 6-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Free Palestine
|
|
Samir can you kindly share the background info of the oud you are working with.
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Here is the back of the oud. Its the same one I had for sale before but I figured I have some time and its a oud worth more effort.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Samir - after our brief chat yesterday I have finally got around to viewing your project for the first time - better late than never!
I use a Delta 14 inch bandsaw for resawing work and can accurately saw veneer and lute ribs without problem. I then finish thickness using hand planes
and scrapers (wherever possible) as sandpaper provides a duller finish than can be obtained with a sharp plane.
I find that an important factor in setting up a bandsaw for resawing is the blade tension which needs to be higher than you might imagine. So I use a
new good quality 3/8 or 1/2 inch blade (from Lee Valley) and wind up the blade tension adjustment screw to maximum. The blade guide block settings
also need careful attention so that the blade is free running with no 'side play'. Use of fibre blocks rather than the standard metal blocks is good
to reduce any friction. I have not tried them but bearing guide systems would likely be an improvement too. Do not try to force the blade through the
work - let the blade do the work at its own pace.
Concerning sharpening of plane and chisel blades, I first hollow grind the blades with an old fashioned hand cranked grinder which works fairly slowly
but pretty much eliminates the risk of 'burning' the steel (but a power grinder with a 'white' wheel can also be used with care). I then sharpen with
a fine oil stone using kerosene as a lubricant - the hollow ground edge makes it easy to 'feel' the correct angle of the blade as you sharpen. The
back of all your blades incidentally should be first ground dead flat on a lapping plate (usually a pretty tedious job but only needs doing once). The
sharpening process produces a fine burr that eventually falls away in the final stages of sharpening. At this point I then hone the blade on a leather
strop - a strip of hard leather glued to a flat block of wood 'dressed' with Lee Valley green compound. This honing quickly produces a mirror finish
and razor sharp edge.
I use cabinet scrapers of various thicknesses as well scraper planes - which can take the load off your fingers when scraping down large areas. The
sharpening of these, like the chisel and plane blades, just takes a bit of practice to obtain good results.
I could give you a 'hands on' sharpening tutorial in my workshop (i.e. the way I do it) if you have time to drop by in the near future and if you are
continuing to have difficulty.
Use hide glue rather than synthetic glues if you can. No need for costly glue pots either - I use a small glass jar in a pan of boiling water.
Richard's observation about bridge materials also applies to lutes. Early lute bridges were usually made from a medium density wood such as pearwood
or maple then stained black. I have made lute bridges from ebony as well but have not been able to verify by direct comparison how the response of the
instrument is affected but I also suspect that the lighter bridge may be better.
Good luck
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
I revived this projects fellas.
i was going to leave the oud the way it was but I thought it would be a nice one to restore.
Iam finaly out of my garage and I built myself a bench out of construction grade spruce last weekend in the basement. you will some pics of it.
Iam at the brace fitting part now... god is it ever tricky.
the pictures show the soundboard rejoining using a few methods to make both sides perfectly flat.
PS: this also proved to be an experiment. I used gorilla glue the first time around to join the soundboard halves. it turned out to be a very bad
choice. the glue joint had no gaps and the facewood then sat around in my basement for almost a year.
as I picked up the peice of wood the joint seemed to have gotten a bit dry. a slight bend confirmed that as it ripped them in to along the joint.
This time around Iam using fish glue wich was recomended to me by Saad al Tayyar. the braces gluing Iam using hot hide glue. much better to work with
these natural glues.
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
in this picture I use a bench plane, the veritas jointer edger,
and a flate granite tile with sand paper. to make the eges of the soundboard true and flat.
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
here Iam showing some more progress.
actualy Iam a bit further as I have about 5 braces glued to the soundboard so far.
this will be a floating brige oud after all. Iam using the plans posted on Zyriab for a oud made by Thabet al Basry.
I put some slivers of cedar right under where the brige goes and I have now taken them down to about 1/3 of a mm.
just something Iam trying to make it a little more solid. I dont think it will affect the sound much. we shall see.
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Now I need advice...
what tool do I use to cut the soundholes?
|
|
|
paulO
Oud Junkie
Posts: 531
Registered: 9-8-2004
Location: California
Member Is Offline
Mood: Utz
|
|
On the bridge material -- Vic Fernandez had a Merjanian he wasn't really satisfied with the sound of, so he sent it back to John and had the face
thinned down a bit and an ebony bridge installed -- Vic and I both thought that the ebony bridge was a good idea, since it was a first choice on many
guitars...well, the oud came back, and it sounded..well surprising -- very treble-y and cold sounding...so from then on, we left the choice of bridge
material to the oud makers Thanks for sharing the project.
Regards..Paul
|
|
|
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Looking good Samir! I especially like your Tide gravity-clamp.
I think you have a dremel tool, right? Make yourself a base for it and you can cut circles with it until the cows come home. Get yourself a good bit
too. You'll want an 1/8" solid carbide spiral bit. Try Ebay.
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
ah yes I havent thought about the dremel cutting tips.
thanks a lot for the advice.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
