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Greg
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The "Lingua Franca" of these forums
There are over 1,000 members of these forums and their primary languages include Arabic, Hebrew, Greek, Italian, French, English, German, Hungarian,
Turkish, Farsi, Spanish (and many more).
Even though many members have difficulty in communicating in English, most make the attempt, as English is the one common language that most have some
capabilities with.
I, for one, would appreciate it if all members of the forums would make an attempt to write in English, so that the great majority of the list members
have an opportunity to participate in EVERY thread (inclusivity).
Respectfully,
Greg
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amtaha
Oud Junkie
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Perhaps this should be a sticky or permanently noted somewhere. Could it be that the time has come to establish a F.A.Q. for the forum?
May I also suggest a "modus operandi"? - Celebrate good times, C'mon! :-)
Best regards,
Hamid
p.s. Shouldn't there be a celebration of some sort that forum passed the 1000 members mark?
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jdowning
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I have the greatest admiration for those who make the effort to communicate in a written language that is not their mother tongue - especially those
with only a limited knowledge of the other language.
I do not disagree with a policy that specifies English as the common language of communication for the forum as being the practical way to proceed.
The English language is flexible enough to be understood even when unintentionally badly written, however, it is possible to deliberately write in an
'exclusive' manner making understanding generally more difficult or confusing than it needs to be. So at one extreme there are those who will use
many words that are of obscure meaning or otherwise no longer in common daily use and at the other extreme there is now the use of written shorthand
presumably developed by cell phone users - for example 'u' meaning 'you' and 'thx' meaning thanks etc.
Avoiding such bad practices and encouraging the writing of plain and simple everyday language at all times should also be an objective?
What a wonderfully diverse and successful forum this is.
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Time
Oud Maniac
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When I see a language that I don't read I would copy the text to Babel fish translation. So to me I have to do this for every post, but it will be
nice if that person does it for us.
What is written in your language of preference can be translated after. This will also develop their English. Also you can include the original text
to allow us to read both languages.
On the other hand if it was not English I think a lot of the members will not bother reading it. So if you target all the members with your post then
English should be the language.
Just suggestions...
this is the link to the translator
http://babelfish.altavista.com/
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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I like the idea of "mechanical translation" but have yet to find a free version that works reliably - particularly if the text is of a technical
nature as much of the oud forum is.
I have just tested a German to English translation of a text about the history of the mouth organ using 'babelfish' and the results are rather poor to
the point of being mostly incomprehensible.
I have heard that some more advanced (and costly) mechanical translation software does work to the point where it is used and trusted by military
organisations.
Does anyone have any recommendations as to the best translation software available - either free or at any price? If so, this might be a useful
service facilty to add to the forum website - if that is a possibility?
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palestine48
Oud Junkie
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I beleive the constraint is a limitation of time to spend typing what they want in a language they are not well versed in and the frustration that
proceeds with it.
While I agree that the forums should be all inclusive, I hope not to alienate those who feel there will be a language barrier set up with the rest of
the board.
I think possible solutions are
1. As Greg, mentioned. encourage english usagae as much as possible and by that the rest of the english speaking forum members should be very
proactice in assisting with corrections and typing, but only in a supportive way of course.
2. If the person who can not speak english well does no have time to type in english, the rest of the forum should not be shy to ask for a
translation from anyone who can lend a hand, if someone asks for it. it should not be an obligation but rather an assistance to someone who seeks
it.
3. As a "social Network" and "community" we should always be assisting each other to benefit the group.
4. I also agree with jdowning, the use of short hand should be discouraged in order for those people who want to use the forums as an english method
the ability to learn to properly type. i am a culprit of shorthand but very willing to give it up if it is helpful.
here is another long shot possibility
5. Maybe we can designate official human translators on the board to those who would like to volunteer, kind of like language moderators?
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Benjamin
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Palestine 48, you have been designed as the official human translator on the board
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Microber
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In my bad english
Well, the "lingua franca"don't say a word...
A lot of things I agree with in this thread.
I have already suggested to the french speakers to write bilingual french AND english. Even badly written.
Some posts are sometime to difficult to understand for me. I know what it's talking about, but not the nuances. And the nuances are often
important.
Using a simple english would help.
Writing take more time also because of the nuances.
Sometime I give up writing.
Time, I also use Babelfish, but only as a dictionary, for a few words I don't know. But I don't think it work well for a whole text.
The idea of a language moderator is very good.
Robert
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Microber
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En français
Eh bien, les "lingua franca" ne disent pas un mot.
Beaucoup de choses avec lesquelles je suis d'accord dans ce thread.
J'ai déjà suggéré aux francophones d'écrire en bilingue français ET anglais. Même si c'est mal écrit.
Certains posts sont parfois trop difficiles à comprendre pour moi. Je sais de quoi on parle, mais je ne comprends pas bien les nuances. Et les
nuances sont parfois très importantes. Utiliser un langage simple pourrait aider.
Ecrire prend beaucoup plus de temps aussi à cause des nuances.
Parfois, je renonce à écrire.
Time, j'utilise aussi Babelfish, mais en tant que dictionnaire pour quelques mots que je ne connais pas. Mais je crois que ça ne marche pas très
bien pour tout un texte.
L'idée d'un modérateur linguistique est très bonne.
Robert
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Microber
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My french transated by babelfish
THIS IS THE AUTOMATIC TRANSLATION OF MY FRENCH POST.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF RESULT ?
Robert
Eh well, the "lingua franca" do not say a word.
Many things with which I agree in this thread.
I already suggested with the French-speaking people writing as bilingual French AND English. Even if it is badly written.
Some posts are sometimes too difficult to include/understand for me. I know what one speaks, but I do not understand the nuances well. And the nuances
are sometimes very important. To use a simple language could help.
To write also takes much more time because of the nuances. Sometimes, I give up writing.
Time, I use also Babelfish, but as a dictionary for some words which I do not know. But I believe that that does not go very well for a whole text.
The idea of a linguistic regulator is very good.
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Greg
Administrator
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Robert,
Your example of Babelfish produced quite acceptable results:
Here's one that I put through:
tu n'as insulté personne ziad?
c'est toi quia ecrit "tu as un coté futile ridicule amine"... et tu trouves que j'ecrivais "autant d'anneries"...ou peut être il y a deux membres
dans ce forum avec le même pseudo.!.??? ne me dis pas que c'était des compliments.
en plus de ça, est ce que moi j'ai cité ton nom?
n'ai pas peur de ce que tu dis et assume le. l'artiste doit être courageux et ne reviens jamais sur ses idées. sauf que le vrai artiste sait quand
et comment intervenir...
ne recommence pas la prochaine fois.
p.s: je suis d'accord sur le fait que c'est une discussion inutile.
The result:
you did not insult anybody ziad? it is you quia ecrit "you dimensioned futile a ridiculous amine"... and you find that I ecrivais "as many
anneries"... or can be there are two members in this forum with the very pseudo one!.??? do not say to me that they was compliments. in more of is
that, what me I quoted your name? am not afraid of what you say and assumes the artist must be courageous and never reconsider its ideas. except that
the true artist knows when and how to intervene... does not start again the next time. p.s: I agree on the fact that it is an useless discussion.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Here is another example of a French to English translation by Babelfish. It is a brief extract taken from the massive theoretical work 'Harmonie
Universelle" by Marin Mersenne published in Paris in 1636. I input the text in French for translation to English - copying Mersenne's 17th C spelling
which is partly phonetic (as is written English of the period). This is a bit of an unfair test as it is not a modern text but does illustrate some of
the difficulties associated with machine translations - which can only be as good (or bad) as the grammatical parameters and vocabulary provided by
the programmers of the software.
I am not fluent in French but take Mersenne to be saying .... "and that the sound of the largest (diameter) strings of a lute are perceived by the ear
to last for the sixth part or a third of a minute, that is to say while the pulse of a relaxed, healthy man beats ten or twenty times: ...."
This is a very important historical piece of information about early 17th C lute strings - not to mention the health of 17th C Parisian men - that
would be difficult if not impossible to interpret from the machine translation alone in my opinion.
I imagine that accurate machine translation is a difficult thing to achieve because of the complexity and subtlety of languages so no doubt good
software - if it exists - is likely to be costly and is likely to be restricted in scope to only one or two languages? Also as input of text is a time
consuming chore, accurate scanning technology (Optical Character Recognition) would also be desirable.
The proposal to write in English together with a translation in whatever language a forum contributor is comfortable with is a sensible and practical
one. After all, one objective of the forum should be clear communication between members. Not always an easy thing to achieve with a large
multilingual community which is why I think that this thread is quite important.
Furthermore, in all of this we should not overlook the power of the image to clearly and quickly communicate information without the need for words
(or very few of them).
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Microber
Oud Junkie
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Greg,
Most of the mistakes in your test come from the bad spelling in the french text.
For example :
1. "quia" must be written in two words "qui as"
2. "ecrit" is normally "écrit"
3. "ecrivais" is "écrivais"
4. "anneries" is "âneries"
and you, Jdowning, the mistakes come from the fact of an old language. Your human translation is very correct.
The same text in modern french should be :
"... et que le son des grosses cordes de luth est perçu par l'oreille durant la sixième partie ou le tiers d'une minute, c'est-à-dire pendant que
le pouls d'un homme sain et sans émotion bat dix ou vingt fois"
The babelfish translation is then :
"... and that the sound of the large cords of lute is perceived by the ear during the sixth part, or the one minute old third, i.e. while the pulse of
a healthy man and without emotion beats ten or twenty times "
Greg, the babelfish translation of your french text with correct spelling is :
"it is you which wrote "you have a ridiculous side futile, amine"... and you find that I wrote as many stupid things."
The conclusion is that babelfish is able to make an acceptable translation if the orthography is correct in the original text.
Robert
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SamirCanada
Moderator
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to me if the proper grammar is used in the original text then it looks like it does a wonderfull job concidering...
my 2c
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Time
Oud Maniac
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It is nearly impossible for some sentences to be translated accurately from language to language even by humans. In this forum most of the users are
using simple English which makes it simpler to translate. Correcting the translation can be done before the post by the user. This will allow the user
to see his text that he wrote in his preferred language then translated to a language he is willing to learn. This allows great understanding of how
sentences are constructed in the translation text.
Using the original text as well as the translated text can make a great help for people of both languages. This will get the point through.
In French: I don't even know a word below. here I am using a real example.
Il est impossible presque pour que quelques phrases soient traduites exactement de la langue à la langue même par des humains. Dans ce forum la
plupart des utilisateurs emploient l'anglais simple qui des marques il plus simple pour traduire. Corriger la traduction peut être fait avant le
poteau par l'utilisateur. Ceci permettra à l'utilisateur de voir son texte qu'il a écrit en sa langue préférée alors traduite à une langue qu'il
est disposé à apprendre. Ceci permet le grand arrangement de la façon dont des phrases sont construites dans le texte de traduction. Employer le
texte original aussi bien que le texte traduit peut faire une grande aide pour des personnes des deux langues. Ceci obtiendra le point à travers.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
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Well, if Babelfish works for some of you most of the time then go for it! Just beware of the fact that it is limited in the extent and deployment of
its vocabulary base so that the results, while they can sometimes be quite amusing, may not be very helpful or even confusing to those with little
knowledge of the second language. For example, running a test translation of an up to date instrument museum catalogue from Paris, "la rose" meaning
a guitar soundhole is translated as "the pink", "Fond" meaning the back of a guitar is translated as "melts", "Les Chevilles" meaning guitar pegs
becomes "ankles", "le fil n'en est pas droit" referring to the lack of straightness of the wood grain in a guitar back becomes "the wire is not right"
- and so on.
Obviously input of the text to be translated also needs to be correct in every respect. Typographical errors in the original text that may not be
obvious to to the person inputting the text might cause problems. Also, both French and German should be dependant upon the proper use of accents for
accurate interpretation and translation - so presumably French and German computer keyboards are essential for input?
Don't get me wrong - I am very interested in the potential of mechanical translation software - but will have to look further than a free, manually
input version of Babelfish before I become a believer.
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Time
Oud Maniac
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Jdowning, you have raised an important issue some people might not be aware off. The error in the translations is possible and should be consider.
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amine2
Oud Maniac
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allez vous branler les mecs.
c'est quoi ce probléme? une perte de temps tout court.
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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 )
Hahahaha
I translated amine post using the babel thing machin and it returned a hilarious translation:
"shake the guys it is what this probléme? a very short waste of time."
amine may have a point it is not really reliable for serious translation but it could be a nice tool to generate a joke or may be to write a
"Burlesque" novel.
The problem needs more R&D, may be assigning a volunteer -human- translator of the day . so let's "Shake the guys"
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Microber
Oud Junkie
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Burlesque.
The word fit very well for his Majesty Amine 2.
Alami, what does mean 'R&D' ?
Robert
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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recherche et developpement non??
rehearsal & developement ???
This babelfish thing does it translate also the arabic??
(What Amine is telling us is to go and clearly practise the individual and cerebral auto-onanism, same as we are doing in this thread which is a
wasting of our time. I try to translate his opinion).
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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usually it means : research and development
But in the case of the major clash of cicvilisations happening on this topic it could be "Read and dismiss"
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eliot
Oud Junkie
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Türkçe
I would say that for the primary-language-is-Turkish speakers on this board (exceptions: Faruk Tarunz and others who are comfortable with English), I
would hope that they would write both in Turkish and English when possible. Translation between these two languages is incredibly difficult and often
much is lost. My Turkish is not perfect, but often I can understand more from the Turkish post than from a broken translation, and we don't have a
tool nearly as accurate as babelfish for these duties.
Keske Türkçe konusanlar hem Türkçe hem de Ingilizce yazacaklar. Genellikle çeviri yaparken anlama kaybolmaktadir. Babelfish gibi bir gerçek
çeviri yapan sey olmadigini göre, tam Türkçe bilmedigime ragmen, Türkçedeki yazdigi seyler daha rahat anlayabilirim.
Also, forum techies, wondering why you can't have the default language encoding for the forum in unicode: currently, you are using
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" />
But if you used unicode, we could write in Turkish and everyone couuld read it....
Teşşekur Ederim!
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Having just done a quick Google search on the Web for "Free Translation" services I was surprised to find quite a number available. Some look as
though they may be a bit easier to input accurately than Babel Fish as they provide on screen accent keys and do not, therefore, require a separate
keyboard setup. I am, therefore, interested enough in the possibilities to do a bit more - dare I say it - Research, by trying out a few of them.
These systems seem to cover most of the European languages including Russian as well as 'global' languages such as Arabic, Chinese, Japanese. I have
not come across a Turkish translation sytem so far but will keep looking.
Question - why on earth would anyone who considers this topic to be a waste of time then proceed to waste their time in participating?!!
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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...... however, if you have some time to spare and have a sense of humour, here is a very amusing site 'Lost in Translation' where the author Carl
Tashian sets out to let you see what happens to an English text after a series of successive translations in several languages He uses Babel Fish for
the machine translations.
You have been warned!!
http://www.tashian.com/multibabel
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