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Al Billings
Oud Addict
Posts: 46
Registered: 1-31-2004
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Mood: No Mood
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Oud Quality
Having read much of the discussion about the merits or drawbacks of various ouds, it strikes me that the level of discourse is often anecdotal and
generalized. Debating the relative merits of ouds built by Najarian, Keyvelos, Fadel or any other builders would be more effective if those who have
played instruments by several makers could be more specific. How do we know, for instance, that Najarian?s ouds are great or not so great if we?ve
never had the opportunity to compare on of his creations to a Kyvelos? And what about the oud?s components? Cedar top? Spruce top? Which species of
spruce? What about the bowl tone woods? What?s the difference? Tone? Volume? Finish? Playing ease? Has anyone compared ouds by these builders? Is the
person posting a competent player? I?ve had a symphony violinist play one of my fiddles and reveal tonal qualities I never knew my instrument
possessed.
In the larger world of musical instruments, the oud occupies a tiny niche that is still in many ways backwards and under-developed because compared
to the guitar and the violin there just isn?t a large market for it. I think it could be beneficial to all of us if we could bring more empirical
information and dispassionate exchanges to the discussion. We all love ouds and want the best we can afford. How do we know what we?re getting when
we order an instrument from a builder who might live halfway around the globe? More importantly, how do learn the questions we should ask?
How do we best improve our knowledge of oud construction and pricing? By being honest about the merits or drawbacks of our own instruments rather
than being defensive, and by asking specific questions of each other and the builders themselves. While various luthiers like Dimitris have web sites
with quality photos and good sound samples, I don?t think they offer sufficient information. Why should I buy a Syrian oud rather than an Egyptian
model? Is it the tone, or is the difference aesthetic? Is the Turkish oud a Manol copy or is it built on another model? Does a Manol copy cost more?
Why? What about the bowl wood and the specific tones tonal qualities of each species? Am I supposed to know these things already? Who can I contact as
a reference? By sharing useful, specific information with each other we might also cause the builders themselves to offer further assistance essential
to our selection of instruments. Spiros has time to visit and post on oud sites, but despite his claim that he?ll answer all questions he never
responded to the last three I asked him. This is disappointing.
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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Dear friend Al
First of all,the diference between the Syrian type and the Egyptian type is on the shape of the body!!!!!!Also the sound of the Syrian type is a
little bit brighter than the Egyptian type[diferences on the braces,and the bridge].
Above our Turkish type that we do,we make and Manol copies,the diference is on the shape,the ribs,the matterials,and the sound too,based on the braces
of the Manol[influences].Yes a copy of Manol has other price,biger.
Because we use very expensive woods and inlay materials and it takes alot of work.
As about my person,dear friend I think that untill now .after at least 400 emails since we did the site ,you are the first person that he is not
''satisfited'' with my answers,but do me a favour,next time be more specific of what do you want to ask.... and I will do my best to respond you.....
Regards and respect
P.S.Also my friend about the woods and the tone qualities,you can tell us HOW WOULD YOU LIKE to be your oud[the sound and the aspect],and we will
make you a combination-offer of woods
I still consider you as a positive thinking person,and on the same side with me,and please next time don't hesitate to ask me and be more
specific
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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also..........
.....and ofcourse we are open to any sugestions that you have ....
You see we are not enemies with the other oudmakers...we have something in comon,we do our best to make better and better instruments,I am sure that
every person ho gives his soul to an instrument,has the right to be respectable from all of us that we only play the oud....
We like the discusions about any improvement of the instument....we only serv this instument,we don't own it ....If you know what I mean....
Regards
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Al Billings
Oud Addict
Posts: 46
Registered: 1-31-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Spyros, I asked you those very questions and you never replied. Thanks for posting ithe answers now. And I still think that some basic tonal
descriptions of your various ouds and the tonewoods you offer would be a useful improvement to your we site. Many guitar makers offer this information
on their web sites and it helps prospective buyers considerably. I'm still consuded about on thing: it seems as though the only Manol copy you
offer is very fancy and decorative. Is it not possible to construct a Manol copy out of simple, high quality woods and Manol bracing, but without the
tusk and other ornamentation?
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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Ofcourse
Dear friend Alan,
Yes we make the Manol copy and without the tusk and other ornamentation ,but the price is higher than our models....
We will put some fotos of my own Manol copy in a few weeks,and you will see the diferences.....
But I personally like my copy of Manol as it is,with the decoration and the marquetrys.....I just love it like that....is something more specific,and
much more beautifull on the aspect
Regards
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
Member Is Offline
Mood: big band envy
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Hi Mr. Billings. I'm a friend of Spyros Koliavasilis and Dimitris Rapakousios, and helped with building Dimitris' website. Dimitris is
very talented in every aspect of oud building, from choosing quality woods, his bracing, and decoration, though he personally prefers simple
instruments, just as Kyvelos and Najarian. The ouds by Fadel I've seen have all been without any extravagant inlay work, so I assume Mr. Fadel
also prefers 'simple' instruments.
You asked in your first post how do you know what woods are used by Najarian for example, or by another maker. The answer to that is, you ask the
maker. There's no way they can't tell you that. Sorry if your questions for Dimitris weren't answered right away.
I've played instruments by both Najarian and Kyvelos, and they were very different. Both are very good, but different sounds completely, and
it's true not just comparing maker to maker, but from one oud to another by the same maker. And this is not just by chance, but often
manipulated by a master maker to the specifications of the customer, and/or their own preference.
It's interesting that now with the internet it's almost a problem that we have so many choices, and of course, Kyvelos, Najarian, Dimitris,
and Fadel are not the only ones making great ouds. So what do we do?
I think you're right to ask for more information pertaining to the relationship between wood types and sound, but the fact is that the most
important aspect in tone and projection is in the soundboard and its bracing. The bowl woods can add extra 'coloring' to the top's
main contribution to tone and projection.
So I think what you need to do when you know you want an oud, is to know how you want it to sound. Tell the maker, and if he says "Yeah, no
problem," ask for the details. "How do you know to make this oud bassy, or how do you know how to make this a more treble/clear toned
oud?"
As for playability, if you know what you want as far as action, neck width, etc...you should order those exact specifications. I doubt there is a
maker who would not follow your instructions in that department.
Anyway, I'm sorry for such a long reply. So you know we've been planning on improving Dimitris Rapakousios' site even more, and that
should happen in the next month or so. Thanks for your suggestions.
Mavrothis
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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my neighbor is making and his oud soundboard out of really thin plywood... 
would this affect the sound of the oud more or the actual quality?
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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Dear friend Nadir
Dear friend Nadir,
Usually the wood that I personally prefer is the spruce.....
I believe that is the best wood for a soundboard....
And the cedar is very good also,but I prefer the spruce
Regards
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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thanks spyros!! 
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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You are welcome brother
Regards
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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is cherry wood frequently used to make ouds? it is the second best wood that they use in furniture (mahogony being the best) and from what i know,
good cherry wood is supposed to be heavy; its also supposed to last you a long time...
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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plywood
Plywood is terrible for a soundboard.
A plywood soundboard will have a dull sound and project poorly, because the criss-crossed layers of wood cut of most of the vibrations from the
strings.
Spyros is right, the best wood for the soundboard is spruce.
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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thanks brian, hopefully i can sabotage the oud he has and justify why there is a crumpled mess in his backyard lol. 
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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hehehehehehee....
Man this is not good......
Don't be that evil
hehehehehehehehe
The walnut is a very good wood for oud,and not that expensive.....
Regards
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Al Billings
Oud Addict
Posts: 46
Registered: 1-31-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Oud Quality
Brian, I wouldn't commission a plywood oud or guitar, but back in the early 1970's the Japanese developed some great laminates. You'll
find them on certain high-end Ibanez, and the Epiphone steel string 575 series, and they're somewhat rare compared to the junk still around from
that period. I've gotten a number of them for beginners and players who need a cheap travel guitar. They can sound good enough that I once fooled
two vintage guitar dealers and a former Collings employee into thinking that a plywood jumbo was built from solid woods. You never know.
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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I don't think that a laminated made oud will give me the sound of a Pallisander - wallnut oud....with a good aged spruce for a soundboard
But,we are always free to choose....personally I prefer for an oud the best quality wood possible....because only that way I will be sure that I can
build a strong and quality sound instrument....ofcourse the builder[maker] has to know the art of making ouds.....this is a perfect combination for
me....I don't know about the quitars,but for the ouds,is totally diferent,that is what I personally think....
Regards to all
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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plywood
Al, thanks for the tip . . . I haven't encountered those instruments myself, although the I've tried some nice laminate ibanez jazz boxes
from the 70s. I think steel-string guitars are a very different proposition than the oud, though.
Plywood can work okay on steel string guitars, probably because the higher tension of the steel strings makes the guitar louder to begin with. And a
really well-made laminate instrument can certainly sound better than a poorly-made solid wood instrument, especially if the laminate itself is made
from good woods.
Have you encountered nylon-string laminate guitars that are comparable to solid wood instruments? My experience is that these are much less sucessful
that their steel-string counterparts.
The primary advantages of plywood are that it's very strong--far stronger than solid wood of comparable thickness--and that it is usually
considerably less expensive. So Spyros, a plywood oud would probably be quite strong (of course a lot still depends on the builder, but I'm
assuming a good builder here).
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Al Billings
Oud Addict
Posts: 46
Registered: 1-31-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Oud Quality
Brian, I've played a few laminate classicals that sounded passable or better, again, Japanese, but there's a cut-off point beyond which
plywood isn't going to work for that style of guitar. I'm not advocating plywood ouds here, just sticking up for a building material that,
while not the most desirable, has had its uses and applications and has occasionally out-performed our expectations of it. But then again, I like old
plywood archtops, bakelite banjos and the cumbus, so I might be a little too plebian for everyone's taste!
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Al Billings
Oud Addict
Posts: 46
Registered: 1-31-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Oud Quality
Lest I leave the wrong impression, my ouds aren't plywood! I have a Najarian Turkish in Celik's low B tuning, which turns a Turkish oud into
a SAC bomber, and a very nice, if somewhat over-decorated Egyptian oud. I plan on buying one or two new ouds next fall, hopefully from Dimitris. And
most of my "serious" acoustic guitars are all hand-made solid wood guitars.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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Al, I totally agree with you--I'm not some anti-plywood crusader
It certainly can be adequate, and as you said, sometimes is much better than one would expect. Also, making plywood instruments has put instruments
in the hands of people who otherwise might not have been able to afford them, and I think that's definitely a good thing.
I was just somewhat horrified at the thought that someone would go through all the work of building an oud, and use plywood for the top . . .
By the way, it seems like a lot of people here are building ouds. It's something I'd like to try someday, but a Brooklyn apartment is not
exactly conducive to woodworking
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Al Billings
Oud Addict
Posts: 46
Registered: 1-31-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Oud Quality
Actually, I've seen a few plywood-topped ouds, with shell-covered backs. Bad idea.You could get more tone and volume out of a cigar box banjo.
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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Dear friends,
Maybe plywood is good,but I believe that we can't compare the pallisander,the maple,the wallnut,and the padouk with that,but as you say it is a
solution,not the best one...
Regards and respect
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Adel
Oud Maniac
Posts: 90
Registered: 12-7-2003
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi Al Billings,
You have to know few things before you buy an oud.
what sound are you looking for? Warm sound or bright sound, loud or average
How much is your budget?
the string length
How good you want your oud to be?
Then you may ask a maker to make you an oud or you buy an oud which you see and like.
No oud maker will be able to guarantee you the sound of your oud, if he or she can get 40_70% of the sound, this will be great.
Another thing, we have oud makers who are making Nahats copy, these ouds sells in Europe for 5.000 Euro, but every time an oud maker present me one of
these copies, I ask him/her, where is the original?
I rather spend 5.000 Euro on an original authentic oud than a copy, no matter how good these makers are, the value of their ouds will never ever have
the same value as the origina.
Good luck,
Adel
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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I believe western oud makers many times they are lacking lot of knowledge since they are not belonging to any certain school of oud making. Nothing
wrong to copy instrument if one have authentic sources but that is not always the case as Adel pointed out. Also both makers and musician need to be
more aware about the ouds history and that some admired ouds actually were not made for our modern string or tunings. Oud makers and musicians have
lot of learn from the ¨ early music movement¨.
Best wishes
Ronny
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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isnt cedar wood better than all other woods for the soundboard though? what about rosewood?
how do these woods compare with pallisander spyros??
thanks in advance!!
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