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Masel
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Arabic vs. turkish ornamentation
There are lots of questions on these boards comparing arabic and turkish ouds, but less discussion on the different approaches to playing.
My teacher is an Iraqi (of the "old style"?) and I can hear it very clearly in his playing. He uses lots of silence between notes/phrases, not much
tremolo, his playing has very much an air of dignity, weight and meditation, if to use terms which are non musical but I am sure every musician could
understand.
On the other hand, when I listen to turkish style playing, it is alot more "busy", lots of tremolo, legato, and especially vibrato and glissando. It
seems they often avoid playing open strings in order to inflect the notes better. I really hear where the sound and playing style for the greek
rembetika bouzouki came from.
Share your thoughts on this please. I personally like both styles and am trying to play them both. I think the more you learn about music from every
different angle possible, the more your knowledge combines. That's why I also want to learn bouzouki and clarinet, but that's another topic.
By the way, I want to share with you this: you can find strings for the oud with a nylon third (re in arabic tuning). The sound is alot better than
the metal string, and it also fits better with the rest of the strings. I really recommend it.
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Oudoneit
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A common ornament in Turkish music is to stop notes sounding by quickly tapping a left hand finger on the sounding string. It's not a hammer on - it
just stops the note sounding. Does this have a technical name? It gives a slightly gutteral sound. Is it used in Arabic oud playing? Mutlu Torun
notates it with a comma above and to the right of the note, with an indication of which left-hand finger does the stopping. I hear it a lot in Turkish
playing, but I haven't listened much to Arabic playing (shock, horror!).
I hope this makes sense...
Rob
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samzayed
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Oudoneit , I've heard/seen this technique used in Arabic style playing, however, I don't know the name. If we're talking about the same thing, this
is very subtle - more common with the open string note.
This is an interesting thread. You do hear a lot of technical and melodic differences between arab and turkish oud playing.
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John Erlich
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Shalom Masel,
You're description of the difference between Arabic and Turkish oud style is about the best anyone can do using words.
Rob, I believe the Turkish oud ornament you are decribing is called "çarpma" (pronounced "charpma"), and, I am told by my Turkish friends, means "a
sudden tapping." It is very characteristic of Turkish oud ornamentation and used very rarely by Arabic-style oud players (may have something in part
to do with higher string action on Arabic ouds).
On the other hand, the fast right hand tremolo, called "rashi" ("sprinkling") in Arabic is used often by Arabic oud players and rarely used by Turkish
ud players. In a less "busy" style of playing, maybe the rashi is a way of compensating the lack of sustain on an unfretted instrument.
As Yair Dalal says of the spare-ness of Arabic-style oud, "It is the sound of the desert." 
Peace,
Udi John
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al-Halabi
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The typical Turkish ornament referred to here (carpma) has two basic forms. One is a grace note that is either hammered on or played with an upstroke.
This added note is played just before the succeeding note, and is joined to it in legato syle. It is counted as part of the note that precedes it so
it does not change the time of the next note. The second form is a more staccato version of this grace note. This is the one that I think Oudoneit is
describing. Mutlu Torun termed it a "silent tap" (sessiz carpma) to indicate that it is a very light and brief ornamental touch on the string that
provides a tissue connecting two notes with an ornament that does not stand out as a clear distinct note.
This ornament is indeed very characteristic of Turkish oud technique. It helps to create the impression of a "busy" playing style. It also often
requires playing in higher positions up the fingerboard, for example when doing a succession of descending or ascending ornamented notes. That is one
major reason why playing in higher positions is generally more common in Turkish than Arab oud playing.
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Masel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by John Erlich
As Yair Dalal says of the spare-ness of Arabic-style oud, "It is the sound of the desert."
Peace,
Udi John |
Hehe, it's funny you mention him, he's my teacher I was talking about.
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John Erlich
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Masel, I was 99% sure you were talking about Yair. Please tell him "drishat
shalom" from John in Berkeley.
Kol tuv,
Udi John
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Microber
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Very interesting thread.
Because of my bad understanding of the english language (the nuances), I am not sure to understand exactly what is the the çarpma.
I have listen (once again) to a recording of Cinucen Tanrikorur that I like very much. Where he used a few ornamentation I think typical of Turkish
players.
Here are a few brief sound clip.
Is this çarpma ?
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Microber
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A few examples of ornamentations used by Tanrikorur.
Glissando to reach the following note
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Microber
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Glissando at the end of a phrase
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Microber
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Harmonics
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al-Halabi
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Microber,
You picked nice examples of ornamenation typical of Turkish oud playing, and from an oud master with a delicate technique. Your first sample is
exactly the carpma. In this descending phrase each of the notes is preceded by a rapid light touch on the next higher note. It is best executed by
playing down the fingerboard on the second and third courses, beginning from the re (muhayyer) on the fifth position of the second course. The index
finger moves down the course, with the third finger touching the next higher note in the scale just before moving down to the next note, when this
pattern is repeated, until the final note of the phrase mi (the open third course).
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Lintfree
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This is a very useful thread and corrects several misconceptions for me as far as damping techniques go. Thanks. I used to think that much of that
damping was, in fact, hammering on. It's not. It's as al-Halabi has described it. It's these explanations that make this site valuable for anyone
serious about the instrument. The Internet makes this possible.
In the midst of the horrors of war and hate and ignorance there are moments like this. Thanks again. D.L.
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billkilpatrick
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i don't have that many recordings so it's difficult for me to distinguish a regional style (of ornamentation) from an individual's style. i have one
cd by cinucen tanrikorur - which rarely gets played - and almost all the rest are andalusian - anaour brahem included.
how would the ornamental characteristics of the andalusian style be described?
is there such a thing as "classical" ornamentation in each style?
... i've homework to do!
really good thread - bill
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Lintfree
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When confronted with a choice of whether to learn one style or another my original teacher told me to study and learn the more complex and then
simplify to the less complex. He also stressed that because something was complex didn't mean that it was better. "But it's good to scare people with
some flashy technique now and then. Then they pay attention to the subtleties."
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Oudoneit
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Carpma.
Regarding this ornament, Mutlu Torun notates it on page 165 of his tutor. I will try to scan it at home tonight when I get back from work. Being
unable to read Turkish, this book can be hard work but it is clearly an important tutor. His 'Rast Etud' on that page has an open second string, next
to which is a comma with the number 4 above it. This, to me at least, seems to imply that after the string is plucked, the fourth finger of the left
hand stops the string. I think this is the first time Mutly (as I affectionately call him) mentions it. It appears many, many times after this
page.
Rob
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Oudoneit
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Arabic: I'm going to a concert in Edinburgh tomorrow night by Adel Salameh and Naziha Azzouz, of music from al-Andalous. There is a a full-day's
workshop on Wednesday, which I shall attend. I'll ask him what is characteristic about Arabic ornamentation.
Rob
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Microber
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Oudoneit,
A concert of Adel Salameh ! Lucky guy !
Robert
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Oudoneit
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Yeah? I've never seen or even heard him, but a visiting oudi is not to be missed. I'm looking forward to it even more now!
Rob
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billkilpatrick
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Oudoneit
Arabic: I'm going to a concert in Edinburgh tomorrow night by Adel Salameh and Naziha Azzouz, of music from al-Andalous. There is a a full-day's
workshop on Wednesday, which I shall attend. I'll ask him what is characteristic about Arabic ornamentation.
Rob |
i'd say you're in for a good evening:
http://www.adelsalameh.com/gallery.html
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Masel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Lintfree
When confronted with a choice of whether to learn one style or another my original teacher told me to study and learn the more complex and then
simplify to the less complex. He also stressed that because something was complex didn't mean that it was better. "But it's good to scare people with
some flashy technique now and then. Then they pay attention to the subtleties." |
Well I agree, but which style do you think is harder? Turkish is harder technically, maybe also in other regards but I know it less well. In any case
the technique is not the probelm for me, it's in the details where things get really interesting.
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John Erlich
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I would agree that the Turkish style is technically more difficult than Arabic, but I can't ever remember hearing a competent Turkish-style ud player
who can really convincingly play Arabic-style oud. (I don't doubt that the very greatest of the Turkish masters could approximate an Arabic style if
they really tried.) It's really "apples vs oranges." I would advise aspiring oudists to either pick whichever style they like to listen to best or
consciously combine them.
Adel Salameh is a technically competent oud player with an extraordinary, beautiful sense of melody. Stylistically, I would describe him as
"typically Palestinian, but with the kind of quirks you would expect from a musician partly self-taught."
Peace,
Udi John
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Oudoneit
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Here is the first usage of the CARPMA ornament in Mutlu Torun's book:
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Oudoneit
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And here is usage of it in a piece of music: Nihavend Saz Semaisi by Neyzen Tevfik (page 205):
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Oudoneit
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"Adel Salameh is a technically competent oud player with an extraordinary, beautiful sense of melody. Stylistically, I would describe him as
"typically Palestinian, but with the kind of quirks you would expect from a musician partly self-taught."
Peace,
Udi John "
Do I detect a value judgement there, Udi John? I hope not. Let's see...who else was partly self-taught? Louis Armstrong, Django, Hendrix, and a few
other quirky players...Long live the Quirks!
Rob
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