dennis perusse
Oud Addict
Posts: 36
Registered: 9-8-2004
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Mood: confused
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timing and metronomes
hello all,
I have a question for all on this forum as I am having such difficulty on this area, and that is timing. I have a problem where I speed up on some
stuff and slow down on other things instead of playing consistently; and it has plagued me for some time. My teacher has advised me to use my
metronome to try to get the idea of timing in sync. He feels that once I can get the gist of it than all of my other issues with the other pieces
should fall into place. Trying to do this is giving me an awful time doing this. Every time I try to count using my foot the simple count of 1 2 3 4
I foul it up. I can do it when I am not playing the UD but when I try to do both either my foot falls out of time or my playing screws up. One of my
questions seems to be how does one internalize this so that I may be able to do both actions at once. I do realize that it might just be a matter of
time and where I am a very slow learner at some things that might just be the case, and simple patience is required of me, but I would like to hear
what all of you think about this. I also realize that their is no magic bullet to this instrument and time can do wonders but my problems persist and
it is eroding my positiveness when I practice the instrument at times. Do or did any of you have this same problem when you first were learning this
instrument?
My other question revolves around the metronome. I have one of those cheap electronic metronomes and I am not too thrilled with it. Are their any
better ones out there that this list would recommend me to use than that or should I just stick with the one that I have?
Thank you all for any help that can be offered to me as I appreciate it quite a lot.
sincerely;
dennis perusse
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palestine48
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 6-9-2004
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This is a great post as this is an issue I have also. and im sorry to say there does not seem to be short cuts to it. like everything else my
teacher tells me its all about practice practice practice. its annoying and mundane and i hate to do it and i dont as much as i should be he is right
its all about practice. just keep at it if u have the patience dont set the metronome faster than your capabilities. maake challenges out of it.
as for a good metronome. my teacher recomended a download a program called weird metronome. u can find it at download.com its free and you can
customize it with different sounds. so u can have a beat with cymbals and the other 2 with i dunoo. gongs or something so u can keep pace and not
feel monotonous.
Other i ideas I tried that i am not consistent with but i feel is good is maybe learning dumbek on the side since it is a rhythmic percussion
instrument. I have a method book that i got from a local teacher and once in a while i pull it out and just bang out my frustrations.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Hi dennis,
First of all, I sympathize with your difficulties. It's good that you're trying to work on it, it's a major weakness in many players.
First off, here are some metronomes that are probably better than what you're using. In my experience, you want one with a solid 'click', not a
'beep'.
#1
#2
#3
#4
etc. These are to give you an idea, basically a decent metronome is around $30.
I'll try to address the various issues you brought up.
Using your foot: While many people find it helpful at first to tap their foot, it is not necessary to tap your foot and it is not necessarily helpful.
Advanced players will not tap their foot when performing, as it is unreliable and an unnecessary distraction--the beat needs to be sufficiently
internalized that tapping is not necessary.
If you're having coordination problems with tapping your foot, then I would say to not bother tapping your foot for the time being.
Now, time issues fall into two broad categories.
1- conceptual
2- technical
Conceptual issues have to do with your musical sense of where the time is, how it feels, feeling a consistent tempo, etc. They are independent of
your instrument and exist in your mind.
Technical issues arise from insufficient mastery of your instrument; you may know what the timing/tempo should sound like, but your limitations as a
player prevent you from playing correctly.
It's important that you are able to tell which of these is which in your practice.
Conceptual issues arise mostly from the following:
Inability to focus (poor attention span, laziness)
Ignorance of how to focus on the time
Conceptual issues should first be addressed away from your instrument. Rather than tapping your foot, try clapping or tapping your hand on your thigh
or a table.
One thing that causes most people problems is that they don't realize how to 'hear' time. The time isn't in the big "beats", but in the subdivisions.
Depending on the tempo, you should hear/feel the eighth-note or sixteenth-note pulse (or triplet/sextuplet, if you're in 6/8).
Set your metronome very slow (no faster than 60) and feel sixteenth notes. Count 1 e and a ("one" "eee" "and" "uh") aloud or in your head to get the
sixteenth notes, then try tapping them out.
Once you feel they're pretty even, try emphasizing different parts of the beat. the big beats on the click will be easiest, but the most important
are the others. one e AND a, two e AND a etc. to get the eighth-note feel, and one E and A, two E and A etc. to work on the sixteenth feel.
You'll notice your attention drifting and your time getting off (or when you get off, notice how your attention had drifted). It's kind of meditative
and Zen to try to focus your attention in this way.
To deal with technical issues, play passages very slowly as evenly and as relaxed as possible. Notice any hesitation in your hands/arms/fingers and
try to relax and get fluid motions. There are a million things to deal with regarding technique, so best to go through that with your teacher. It
sounds like your problem is mostly on the mental side anyway.
It's important, so I'm going to repeat it: make sure your metronome is set very slow. You want it to be a guidepost to you hearing the time
internally, not an incessant clock pounding the beat into your head. I often practice with the metronome only playing the first beat of the measure.
This way you hear it when you get off, but it's sparse enough that you can't lean on it for the time.
Hope this helps.
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MARTAN
Oud Addict
Posts: 38
Registered: 12-3-2005
Location: EILAT ISRAEL
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Mood: LOOKING FOR NEW HORZIONS
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Hi Dennis
Re your timing problem, try using this download metronome as follows I find it very user friendly ................emusicinstitute.com.
Keep going you will win in the end I am sure.I feel for you.
Martin
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SamirCanada
Moderator
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Registered: 6-4-2004
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Arabic and turkish music's rythms are not always 1- 2- 3- 4. So maybe a better way to practice would be to play along just the percusions of popularly
used rythms. For people playing other types of music with the oud. I guess a metronome would be perfect. unless you can customize the rythms with some
more advanced metronomes and make them oriental rythms? 
Its a major issue in my playing aswell. and I feel I need much practice in that departement.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Even though Arabic and Turkish music use other meters, the basic issue of steady time is the same. You don't need a special metronome, as any meter
will match up to the click every two or four bars anyway.
ex. metronome=quarter, playing 7/8
ONE two THREE four FIVE six SEVEN one TWO three FOUR five SIX seven
and you're back to one. This is actually a great way to make sure your asymmetrical meters are solid. (essentially you're playing 7/8 on top of
7/4)
if the metronome is a half note, it takes four bars to come around. (1---5---2---6---3---7---4---)
For advanced practice, you can make the metronome = anything and play in any meter.
ex. metronome= dotted half, meter = 5/4
ONE two three FOUR five one TWO three four FIVE one two THREE four five
it takes three bars to come around.
whole note, dotted quarter, dotted whole, whatever. It doesn't matter where the click is, the time is in your head.
Playing along with percussionists will usually just teach you how to lean on the percussionist. The percussion covers up a lot of inaccuracies, it's
better to use a metronome and internalize the rhythms. Some people get it more easily than others, maybe they never need to use a metronome, but I've
rarely encountered that even among the most gifted musicians.
You should be giving the rhythm to the percussionist, not trying to get it from them. Many percussionists don't have perfect time either (probably
safe to say most), so you're not necessarily going to improve your time. Listen to the great players--even without percussion you hear the rhythm.
Playing with other people (percussionists or any instrument) will improve your ability to listen and hook up with other people's sense of time, which
is also an important skill. But it's different than having good time.
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pauldata
Oud Maniac
Posts: 64
Registered: 4-20-2007
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Counting is a very important issue that I address very early on with my drum students. I like to introduce them to odd time ASAP, usually starting
with 5/4 and 7/8, later moving on to 9/8, 10/8, etc.
I advise them to get into the habit of counting (either out loud or in their head) whenever they are listening to music; in the car, jogging,
whatever. For odd time, it breaks down into where the rhythmic pulses of the melody lie. So, in a given example counting five, it could go:
12123 12123, or 12312 12312, where the accents are always on the 1. Likewise for seven: 1212123 1212123, or 1231212 1231212. I never count seven as
1234567...
So, to summarize: a/ get into the habit of counting in your head wenever you are hearing music, and b/ count odd time rhythms in groups of 2 and 3
with the pulse or downbeats falling on the 1s.
Hope this helps a bit.
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3om3om
Oud Lover
Posts: 11
Registered: 3-10-2007
Location: Montreal, Canada
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well just something that might help .. . If your music teacher gives you known songs try downloading them, then play at the same time with the song...
I used to have this problem and it still shows of sometimes for ive been learning oud for 7 months.. but usually when I learn my teacher plays at the
same time so i end up having the rythm and still he corrects me. but sometimes when I play alone for some minutes i realize ive jumped from slow to
very fast and then normal. If u have this problem try relaxing your breathing.. might help ::
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dennis perusse
Oud Addict
Posts: 36
Registered: 9-8-2004
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Mood: confused
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hey,
Thank you all for the help and advise. I appreciate it.
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eliot
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-5-2005
Location: The Gorges
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Also, try speaking/singing the tune with the metronome. Figure out if the issue is more oud related (you freak out when the oud is on your lap) or
ear/auditory/motor related.
There's a rhythm education program called taketina or something like that which takes students through polyrhythmic dance/speaking/percussing
exercises. If you can find a taketina course, I've known musicians who have gone from having "no rhythm" to being solid quite quickly from a few
taketina classes. For others it has no effect, though.
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Greg
Administrator
Posts: 926
Registered: 7-22-2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Mood: Serene
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Eliot,
Even though the above post of yours was nearly a year ago, I want to thank you sincerely for the lead. I have just returned home after a three-day
intensive Ta Ke Ti Na workshop conducted by Reinhard Flatischler (the originator of the Ta Ke Ti Na system) and his percussionist wife Cornelia
Flatischler. It is truly a revolutionary and gentle method of learning to "feel" complex rhythms.
There is some information on the system and its originator here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Flatischler
The last Australian workshop is in Sydney next weekend 14 to 16 March. Apparently there are still some vacancies if anyone is interested. The workshop
I attended in northern NSW had attendees from as far afield as Hobart and Hawaii.
Regards,
Greg
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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I agree with everything that Brian posted. In addition, here is an exercise that I find very helpful for developing a feel for a pulse and the ability
to articulate the center of the pulse or beat. It is like a meditation of sorts and is a good one to do for a few minutes at the beginning of practice
sessions. You will need two items: a metronome with a click and a stick for tapping. (chopsticks work well)
[1] Put the metronome on about 60 or a bit slower and listen to it for a while, feeling a pulse marked by the click. It is best to subdivide the pulse
with the click on the downbeat and the silence between clicks on the upbeat, or in reverse, with the click on the upbeat.
[2] When you can feel the pulse, begin tapping with the idea that you will be in perfect sync with the click. It is important that you tap off of your
own sense of the pulse or beat stream. The metronome is there as a guide to help you.
[3] If you are behind the click or late with your tapping, increase the intensity of your feeling for the pulse. If you are generally ahead or
rushing, relax your feeling of the pulse.
[4] Eventually, after a few minutes or a few days, you will tap and the click will disappear. This feels very insecure at first and we usually comment
on it to ourselves. We say something like, "Ah, I got it." Of course as soon as this happens we lose it.
[5] Just keep at it for a few minutes a day and as time passes your feeling for the pulse will get stronger and your ability to mark the middle of the
beat will become more secure. After a while you will notice that you can stay in the middle of the beat with a steady pulse for longer periods of
time, like several seconds and up. This is of course something that I myself need to do more of, and it is good for anyone at any level, regardless of
how long they have been playing. It is very important to tap from your own sense of the pulse. Try not to focus too much on trying to match the
metronome. If you keep that as a passive goal it will happen naturally. Any feedback from practicing this would be greatly appreciated.
Roy
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gilgamesh
Oud Junkie
Posts: 206
Registered: 10-4-2007
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Mood: in the mood
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Hey!
http://www.radins.com/linker.php?id=3497
The methodology used is the traditional usul is to sing the melody while striking rythm correspondent. Thus, you can learn the structure of a song,
but also its character, which is given by the dynamics and movement of rhythm.
Begin to learn a few pieces or light dances to the rhythms in 6 / 8 and 2 / 4. Emphasis is placed on techniques for plectrum, correctness intervals
and, of course, setting up the rythm... and stand for dancing if necessary.
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