Jason
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Can I post Simon Shaheen - The Music of Mohamed Abdel Wahab ?
I received a copy of this from a friend. I can post it for everyone if it is still out of print. I can't find it for sale anywhere but I'd hate to
be wrong and post something people can still buy
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Greg
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Jason,
You would need to check the law in your own country, but I believe the following to be true:
Whether or not a recording, book or any other intellectual property is still commercially available is of no relevance in matters of copyright.
Regards,
Greg
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spyrosc
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Please don't
I think it's unfair to Simon to be posting this album.
People can buy it from Amazon.com and other places.
Spyros C.
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Microber
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Hello Spyros,
Here is what I've found for this cd from Amazon.
Do you think selling second hand cd at that price is 'fair' to Simon.
I really don't like these commercial rules that in the end deserve music, art AND the musicians.
Robert
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00008FC7U/ref=dp_olp_3/103-...
http://www.amazon.fr/gp/offer-listing/B00008FC7U/ref=dp_olp_2/171-6...
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jazzchiss
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This one is an old debate. I do not believe that sharing the music that we like be unjust with the musicians, but it is making free publicity to them.
I have never seen a Shaheen's CD for sale in my city, but I know him thanks to the Internet. If one day he comes to play in my city I would like to
see him. Internet does the musicians well known worldwide and it increases their possibilities to work.
'The Music of Mohamed Abdel Wahab' is a great disc, but recently I have downloaded 'Two Tenors and Qantara Historic Live Recording of Arabic Masters'
and it is quite horrible (except an instrumental piece). I have lost 0.60 euros, but if I would had spent the 13.98 $ plus shipping that proposes http://www.amazon.com/Two-Tenors-Qantara-Historic-Recording/dp/B000... I would consider it a fraud.
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Brian Prunka
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Jazzchiss, The Two Tenors CD is 'horrible'? Are you serious? Wadi El-Safi and Sabah Fakhri are amazing singers. It's true that Simon only has two
tracks on the album, but on what basis are you saying it's horrible? Do you think that the singers are not up to the standards of their previous
albums, or what?
Your argument about stealing (it's not sharing, sharing is when you give someone something that beongs to you, not when you give someone something
that belongs to someone else) is nonsense. It's true that it creates some publicity, but it's not 'free publicity' as you claim. Have you ever
commercially released a recording? It costs A LOT of money.
On the 'Abdel Wahab' CD there are 24 musicians, all of whom had to be paid, and many of them had to be flown to the US from Palestine, housed, etc.
In addition, there was the recording engineer, assistant engineer, mixing engineer, assistant mixing engineer, producer, assistant producer, and
mastering engineer, all of whom do this for a living and had to get paid. The time in the recording studio had to be paid for, as well as recording
materials (tape, etc). Abdel Wahab's estate had to be paid for the use of his music, as well. Plus there are manufacturing costs that need to be
recouped. Then there's the photographer, the designer, and the writer who created the artwork and liner notes.
Furthermore, Simon does quite well with publicity on his own, and the likelihood is that you would go to see him if he came to your city even if you
hadn't heard of him until then, because it would be in the newspapers etc.
As for the CD, Simon will be reissuing a remixed/mastered version of 'Abdel Wahab' at some point (he bought back the tapes/rights from the label).
If anyone wants the CD in the meantime, Najib has plenty of copies and I'll get it for you, $15+shipping. Please don't post it on here.
While it's true that copyright laws have gotten out of hand, their primary purpose is to help musicians make a living from their work. People copying
music and putting on the internet etc. really is having a direct negative impact on professional musicians. It's simply not true that copyright laws
primarily benefit recording companies. Even if that were true, making money is what lets recording companies keep putting out records (which cost a
lot of money to put out, as mentioned above), which directly benefits the musicians anyway.
Good news--I was talking to Simon last night, and 3 new albums are in the works, an ensemble album will be recorded in september, following by solo
violin amnd solo oud records.
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Jason
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Brian Prunka
As for the CD, Simon will be reissuing a remixed/mastered version of 'Abdel Wahab' at some point (he bought back the tapes/rights from the label).
If anyone wants the CD in the meantime, Najib has plenty of copies and I'll get it for you, $15+shipping. Please don't post it on here.
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I had heard that before but I wasn't sure if it was true. I'll definately be buying the disc again when it gets remastered. Brian, do you know if
the ensemble disc is going to be more traditional or more like Blue Flame?
Just to be clear, the reason I was going to post the album is because I didn't think it was still commercially available. Obviously, none of the
musicians receive anything from second-hand sales and I couldn't find it available new anywhere.
Thanks
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Brian Prunka
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I don't know what the timeline is on the remastering, but it's definitely in the works.
The new CD is going to be original music, so it's not classical repertoire, but it will have more of a range than Blue Flame, I think. Some of the
pieces are classical forms (Istihlal Huzam, Sama'i Nahawand) and others are 'fusion', but different from the stuff on Blue Flame. I'm not sure
exactly what's going to end up on the album, but Simon's been writing some really nice compositions lately.
I understand the thinking behind posting albums that are not commercially available, and I think in some instances it's okay. Often it's not
available because the record company owns the rights and doesn't consider it worthwhile to rerelease it (this is one of the things that needs to be
reconsidered in copyright law, i think, though it depends on the contract that the musician signed). For instance Ahmed Abdul-Malik's 'East meets
West' has been out of print most of the time since it came out, and it doesn't seem like the label has any plans to rerelease it, and he's dead, so he
wouldn't get any money even if they did . . . in that case, I think the album is basically 'abandoned' (though legally it isn't).
Many of Marcel Khalife's older recordings are unavailable in the US; I do think the artist has some obligation to make things available if he doesn't
want someone else to do it.
If Simon's CD really were totally unavailable maybe it would be a different story, but it is definitely possible to purchase a new copy. I can tell
you from firsthand experience that an artist's ability to sell a recording has a direct impact on the recordings that he will make in the future.
The reason that Simon isn't rushing to put out an album of traditional repertoire has a lot to do with the relative success of Turath/Abdel Wahab vs.
Qantara (btw, I've told him about the forums and that there's a fantical audience for traditional stuff . . . we'll see).
I've talked to him about it before, but I'll see if I can't get the Abdel Wahab disc out for sale more easily.
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Jason
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Yeah definately. I really had no idea you could still buy a new copy. Maybe he would let someone have maybe 25-50 copies to put on places like
Amazon and half.com? It's a great album and a shame that some people are having to pay upwards of $50 to enjoy it.
I actually like Blue Flame better than any other album he's done. While I appreciate his mastery of traditional music it's nice to hear really really
good fusion featuring the oud. There are tons of people out there doing it but a lot of it is kind of lackluster imo. Simon really brings the idea
of arabic fusion or whatever to whole other level
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palestine48
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I really dont have an opinion on this matter but rather questions to fuel the discussion. I agree that the cd should not be freely given away for
various reasons, mainly because we all know that is how simon makes his living. As for having the ability to hear these works, how can we do i in a
moral way when we have no ability to access the album?
Take the Ahmed Abdul Malek example. I have the Jazz Sahara album and I love that album, now that I ljust l learned there is a similar album from
reading this forum, how can I hear it and enjoy it without "stealing" it. we all understand the consequences but whats the ultimate solution?
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jazzchiss
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Brian Prunka
Jazzchiss, The Two Tenors CD is 'horrible'? Are you serious? Wadi El-Safi and Sabah Fakhri are amazing singers. It's true that Simon only has two
tracks on the album, but on what basis are you saying it's horrible? |
Well, that a music seems to us wonderful or horrible it is something very subjective. For several years I listen to Oum Kulthum every day in my siesta
and I never get tired. The way of singing of these two tenors seems to me of badly taste (no offence, please!) and the songs are tiring. This CD-R
that I have spent I will give away to the first friend who comes to my house and wants it. Who has been harmed? That's free promotion!
It is necessary to bear in mind that, thanks to the Internet, millions of persons are listening to a lot of new music that they might never buy in
this quantity. The musicians will benefit in the long term from this situation, but the time in which a singer could become rich selling millions of
copies of a silly song has passed away. Let's recognize that the system of copyright is unfair and has created numerous monsters in the world of
popular music.
The record industry is not characterized precisely by his honesty but for his greed (there are exceptions). I have bought more than 1000 discs among
LPs and CDs and I have felt defrauded in 20 % (undocumented discs, lasting the half of their capacity ...).
I think we should have the right to listen entirely to a work before to buy it and to the return of the money if we are not satisfied.
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Brian Prunka
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Hey Palestine48, I hear what you're saying. The reason I brought up Ahmed Abdul Malik is because I think it illustrates a 'gray area' regarding
ethical decisions. I don't know the answer to the question of what the ultimate solution is. I have some ideas, but it's difficult to balance
everyone's rights in an ultimately fair way that encourages freedom, creativity, etc. My take on the Abdul-Malik situation is ultimately that it's
ethical for people to trade it. This is based on several factors:
1-the artist is dead and can receive no benefit from its sale
2-the artist's offspring are old enough to take care of themselves
3-the record label has abandoned the recording by declining to make it available for a very long time, and has no plans to make it available in the
foreseeable future
This makes it public domain, from my perspective (and in the original form of copyright law as well, the work would be public domain by now).
This is like someone owning a building that they neglect and let stand vacant for 10 years . . . in many places, the property is seized by the
government and auctioned off to someone who will use it.
It's true that copyright is abused a lot, especially by corporations (which are, in principle, immortal--thus rendering meaningless any expiration of
copyright based on the death of the creator). Serious reform is necessary, mainly getting closer to the original intent of copyright: foster
creativity by helping artists earn a living from their work, by encouraging openness rather than secretiveness (trade secrets are no longer the way to
keep people from stealing your ideas, thus encouraging artists and inventors to share and build on one another's ideas and knowlege, rather than
letting skills die with the artist--look at Nahat and Stadivarius. if intellectual property law protected them, their designs would be a matter of
public record, rather than secrets taken to the grave).
Jazzchis obviously believes that it's his right to take whatever he wants and has no respect for the artists from whom he steals. He makes
unsupported assertions, has no arguments to back them up. He has the foolish attitudes of a child; I would expect better from someone his age.
If he thinks music should be free, no one is stopping him from making music and giving it away for free. For some reason, he believes that he has the
right to make that decision for other people--i find that incomprehensible. He should read look into the history of copyright so he can better
understand why it exists, and the benefits it confers on artists, society, and creative freedom (which isn't to say that the details of the system
shouldn't be debated and modified, but that the core philosophy of copyright is deep and well-considered).
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mhassan
Oud Admirer
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The truth be told to all is this: Forget about copyright laws, stealing, sharing, etc...If you are a true fan of any artist who puts out their work,
you must realize that that is the way they earn their living and monies has gone into putting out that work. If I want to continue to hear this
artist who brings me joy, inspiration, etc... Your DAMN right i'm going out to spend 12.95 to buy their work, if thats what it takes thats then thats
what it takes. It's really irrelevent to me that I can get it for free, that's not the point. The internet has provided us a way to see and hear
things we might never have seen, but lets not get the law mixed up in art. That's the last thing we need. If you truly can't afford to buy an album
that makes you happy, then I say do what you gotta do. But if you can be true to yourself and the artist and support them. Just think if the roles
were reversed. cheers
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palestine48
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Mhassan makes a great point, forget all the the technaicalities and look at the main issue is, are you taking food away from a persons mouth.
On that note, I read an article about a company that amazed me. i forget the name of it but basically they are a warehouse of merchandise products
for musicians and artists. instead of labels producing the stuff and sells them for their gain, the artists becomes a client of this company and the
artists profit individually from merchandise sales on their personal websites.
the article continues that the idea was inspired from the greatful dead who encouraged their audience to tape their shows and leak em out because they
never did they same routine twice and instead would sell their own tshirts and merchandise and thats how they made a living as well as show sales.
the leaked tapes were a way for people to hear their sound and go to their shows so while i dont agree with jazzchissm, this is a situation where his
opnion has a point. but in this situation, album sales werent the main focus of revenue for the band to be profitable.
Other than that since we know simon for example sells nothing but cd, it should be respected that you u support him in that matter.
P.S. can any one share any ahmed abdel malek works lol. i loved jazz sahara and would like to hear more, if you find it moral that is lol
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jazzchiss
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| Quote: | Originally posted by palestine48
Other than that since we know simon for example sells nothing but cd, it should be respected that you u support him in that matter.
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I bet that S.S. earns more money in one single day of concert that in one year of the sales of his CDs.
My idea is that art and culture are human rights and it's good (also for the artists) that there are alternative methods to obtain them for free.
I go every week to a public library and borrow two books. It's copyrighted material, I read them for free and the authors get nothing. Is this
stealing, Brian?
Can someone explain to me the difference between a library and the Internet?
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Sorry, JC, but you don't deserve a response.
Mhassan--I think you're missing the point. It's great if you personally feel that you want to support the artist, but that doesn't mean that we don't
need to consider copyright laws.
By that logic, murder could be legal because you personally don't have any intention of murdering someone, so nobody has anything to worry about . .
.
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paulO
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I have decided to ditch my earlier post and answer the question that's the subject of this thread.
"Can I post Simon Shaheen - The Music of Mohamed Abdel Wahab ?"
Uh..No.
Cheers..PaulO
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palestine48
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keep in mind traveling expenses, and also that its impossible for him to have shows on a continuous basis, im sure there are "dry " periods, hes good
but he isnt as popular as the rolling stones per se.
the shortest answe i can gve to jazz chiss is that
A. a library lets you borrow its material with the requirement to eturn it, if you dont. you have to pay late fees or pay for the material that
B. the internet does not have such a control feature as you know and you can essential keep the material forever .
in response, how many days after the initial two beek loan period from a library will add up to the cost of the cd that you borrowed. u would of
course have to pay that back. how can you do that when you download from the internet.
p.s. im not stating my opinion, but just providing a rebuttal to an invalid point.
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David Parfitt
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I notice that the posting by Jazzchiss here: http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6167 with a link to free downloads of Umm Kulthoum's music is still on the board. Perhaps
one of the Moderators could remove this?
David
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stringmanca
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by palestine48
P.S. can any one share any ahmed abdel malek works lol. i loved jazz sahara and would like to hear more, if you find it moral that is lol
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 http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6305
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