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ALAMI
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You're right : 7.5 is the distance from bottom to the back edge of the bridge.
The exact distance from the bottom to the bridge (inner side of the string loops) is 8.8.
What is written on the rosette is still a mystery, it is meaningless in arabic, I checked with an old calligrapher, could be old turkish.
Peyman, thanks for the clarifications on the word dastan.
While reseaarching the word I found this site:
http://www.dastanarts.com/html/instruments2.html
and if you are interested in miniatures I can point a great book:.
Figurative Art In Medieval Islam
Author Michael Barry
http://www.amazon.fr/Figurative-Art-Medieval-Islam-Riddle/dp/208030...
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Peyman
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Thanks Alami. If you post a picture of the writing I am sure someone can tell you if it's Turkish or not. The rosetter and the fingerboard look
awsome.
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excentrik
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wow, doc-
I cant wait to see that oud restored- what beautiful work the original maker did- thank God the label is still intact.
tarik
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jdowning
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This is interesting. The profile of ALAMI's Al Arja oud looked familiar so I checked the geometry against the famous lute construction given by Henri
Arnault de Zwolle in his manuscript dated around 1450 (Images of the Arnault lute have been posted several times in the past on this forum so I will
not include an image again here. A full translation from the original Latin text to English is provided in an article " A Fifteenth Century Lute
Design" by Ian Harwood published in the Lute Society Journal #11, in 1960).
The Arnault construction does not provide absolute measurements but gives proportional dimensions. A tracing of the image of the Al Arja oud posted by
ALAMI was made and the Arnault construction overlaid on this outline for comparison. Given that there is some slight fore- shortening or possible
"barrel" distortion of the image, it was found that the oud matched the Arnault geometry remarkably closely.
The attached image shows the construction.
The bottom of the bowl is a semicircle of radius AB which is half the maximum width of the soundboard which equals the radius CD which, in turn,
defines the profile of the upper part of the soundboard. The difference in my construction is that I chose a point a little above the widest part of
the belly from which to scribe the radius CD which makes the Al Arja oud bowl a little longer proportionally than the Arnault lute. The front edge of
the bridge is located at 1/6 of the length of the bowl (HJ) from the bottom edge to the neck joint (HK) - exactly as given by Arnault. The centre of
the rose F is mid way between the front edge of the bridge and neck joint EG - as given by Arnault.
The diameter of the rose should be 1/3 the distance across the belly through the centre of the rose. On the Al Arja oud the rose diameter is 1/3 the
maximum width of the belly CD.
The depth of the bowl according to Arnault should be half the width of the belly AB which means that lute has a semicircular section whereas the oud
is a bit deeper in section. Also the neck length described by Arnault is much longer which is an unresolved dimensional anomaly even for lutes.
The Arnault lute has only three braces - one each side of the rose with a third bar placed between the rose and bridge (as well as a heavy end block
measuring 1/3 the distance between the bottom of the bowl to bridge in thickness) - an arrangement that Ian Harwood considered would favour the lower
harmonics providing a full rich tone quite different from lutes of a later time period.
The barring arrangement of the Al Arja oud would be of great interest. Is there any way to determine this non destructively - perhaps by lightly
tapping the soundboard and listening for a change in pitch at the bar positions?
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jdowning
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See also the close similarity to the early lute profiles posted on page 1 of "Designing a Golden Mean Based Oud"
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ALAMI
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WOW, amazing !
The funny thing is that I am trying to design a golden mean based oud not realising that I already have a 115 year old one.
What I haven't yet told about this oud is that it has been already restored twice, in fact in 2 steps by Fadi Matta, the first restoration was to
negate all the previous bad restorations and to set the neck. at the end of the first restoration the oud looked beaytiful, the action great, but it
was still not playable, it was buzzing, Fadi asked me to wait a couple of months, but it didn't go.
The next step was a painful decision: the inlays on the fingerboard were sanded and used over the years they became very thin and "erased" in some
places, the rest of the fingerboard was so "mounts and valleys" that it couldn't be fixed.
To make it playable again there was no other solution than replacing the top of the fingerboard, now the inlays are gone.
But not permanently as before taking them away I did a high resolution scan and did an exact tracing of the inlays.
The 3rd step would be to send the files to Jameel and ask him to make a new fingerboard top with a perfect replica of the original inlays.
Would you be able to do it soon Jameel ?
What I would like to add regarding this oud is that it has a deep beautiful sound, it is the oud I play most. It is stringed with Pyramid special low
tension, a great set fixed by Jameel.
Lately it was played by Omar Bashir, he played it for 4 hours and fell in love with the oud, he wanted to buy it (and of course it is not for sale)
but I told him that he can play it as long as he wants while he is in Beirut.
Regarding the barring: is it possible to use X-Ray or MRI or some medical device to see inside ? I may be able to do it.
I know, I have to post a sound file soon, but I would like to give the old guy a decent studio recording.
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jdowning
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Thanks for the additional information Alami. Great that the oud is still being played and sounds well. I don't suppose that the previous restoration
work changed the profile of the instrument? Don't wear it out though!!
X-ray technology has been used in the past to determine lute barring - although the images can show some distortion on a 3D object - so need careful
interpretation to ensure accuracy. Nevertheless, a plan view as well as side view X-ray would be very useful if you can arrange it. MRI images would
also be interesting if there is not a high patient demand for the machine - but I am not sure if they would have much advantage over X-ray?.
I wonder if a low cost, electronic, hand held, "stud" finder (that detects density variations (not nails) in wood - used by carpenters to locate wall
timbers) would be sensitive enough to work?
Richard and Jameel no doubt will have some experience to share.
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ALAMI
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John you're right !
A quick and rough superposition with the manuscript (as posted by Ronny Anderson)
What are the possible conclusions ?
An oud made in Tripoli - Lebanon in 1892 is "according" to De Zwolle manuscript 1450, pure coincidence ? or shared ancient ways ?
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ALAMI
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What is written on the rosette was never identified.
It doesn't seem to be in Arabic, but the makers are arabs.
Lebanon was under the reign of the Ottoman Empire andTurkish was widely spoken in Tripoli in the late 19th, it was needed to get a decent job, is it
old turkish ?
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jdowning
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The bowl profile is a lot closer to the Arnault lute than I thought. From the depth of 20 cm that you gave earlier ALAMI, I assumed that it was a
deeper profile whereas now it seems to be very close to a semicircular section which would make the depth around 18cm and conform to the Arnault
geometry (as well as lutes as late as the early 16th C)
Due to the close correlation of data I would like to imagine that the Al Arja family of oud makers was indeed working to very early traditions of oud
geometry handed down through generations of luthiers.
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Peyman
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Alami, have you tried using a lamp, as Jameel has on his website? http://www.khalafoud.com/bracelocations.htm
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jdowning
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I tried the tuning fork method for locating braces given by Jameel but was unable to get any positive results after trying on a number of instruments.
Is there a technique involved as the vibrations of a tuning fork attenuate or fade very quickly?
I like the idea of a strong light used to illuminate the interior of a bowl so that the bars can be seen through the thin soundboard. For instruments
with rosettes where it is not possible to physically insert a light source into the bowl, Jameel suggests using a 'strobe' light directed through the
sound hole so that there is sufficient reflected light to illuminate the bars which can then be photographed in a darkened room with a long shutter
exposure time. Is a 'strobe' light just a regular high intensity electronic flash unit from a camera or is it a stroboscope light that emits regular
light flashes for a period of time - which might give the camera a better chance of recording a clear image?
Jameel has also already tried the electronic stud detector which he reports does work but is only sensitive enough to give an approximate bar
position. I wonder if all stud detectors are more or less alike in this respect or if there is a super accurate brand on the market that might do a
better job?
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jdowning
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Another proportional dimension that seems to fit ALAMI's Al Arja oud is that given by Al-Kindi in the 9th C which is that the point where the strings
are struck (ie the centre of the 'plectrum guard') is located at 1/10 of the overall string length.
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ALAMI
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OK you'll make fun of it, I am expecting the worst and am psychologically prepared but
....... .... IT IS WORKING 
Definitely worth adding to "the non intrusive non destructive brace investigating method where curiosity doesn't kill the cat"
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Peyman
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I am speechless!
Ok I already see something neat there by the bridge...
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SamirCanada
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thats just too cool...
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MatthewW
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hey Alami, isn't that a labotatory photo of one of the alien ouds they found in that UFO crash in Roswell,New Mexico, when they were testing it's
unique bracing material?
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Dr. Oud
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gee, do ya think my insurance would cover this exam? )
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SamirCanada
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ouds can have health insurance in lebanon...
anything goes in this beautyfull country.
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Jameel
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And I thought I had some nice tools....... 
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David Parfitt
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| Quote: | Originally posted by ALAMI
What is written on the rosette was never identified.
It doesn't seem to be in Arabic, but the makers are arabs.
Lebanon was under the reign of the Ottoman Empire andTurkish was widely spoken in Tripoli in the late 19th, it was needed to get a decent job, is it
old turkish ? |
Alami,
Are you able to work out what words are written in the rosette, even if you can't decipher their meaning?
David
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jdowning
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With the local hospital definitely less than willing to cooperate in allowing use of their CAT scanner for 'non-medical' purposes, I went out today
and bought an electronic "stud finder" from a local hardware store with the intentions of running some trials to test it as a "brace finder", all in
the interests of science, research and lutherie. I bought a "Zircon - StudSensor SL" for $20 (including battery) as I was impressed with the flashing,
multi colour, scan mode, LED's, the auto calibration LED and the laser like SpotLite Pointing System (not sure what the 'SL' means but, anyway, it
seemed impressive at the time - as did the plastic packaging).
The device was tested on an old lute soundboard - so that I could readily verify the accuracy of the results. Unfortunately, it did not work as
expected - well actually not at all - with LED's flashing wildly and the SpotLite then 'marking the spot', like a "Retriever" hunting dog 'pointing'
to a game bird - the best that I could achieve was to locate the gap midway between two braces!!
So, what am I doing wrong here? First the tuning fork method failed and now this.
Ah well, I can always use it for house repairs I suppose.
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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Like Samir said: anything goes in this beautiful country (the worst and the best.... part of its charm)
The funny thing is that the doctor is not someone I know, I just called the medical Imagery center facing my work and asked to talk with the
radiologist, I told him that I have a 115 year old patient who needs a scan, he was impressed and asked if I need an ambulance so I told him that I
will carry him myself as he is not very heavy, he started to get angry so I told him the truth:
It's not a human, it is one of the oldest oud alive in Lebanon if not the oldest, he laughed, which means yes.
He worked for about 2 hours, I have the full data: the dimensions of the braces from all sides, the thickness of the wood grain and the profile of the
braces and a full 3D reconstruction of the 2 small fan braces.
Finally when it came to money, he refused to get paid but he said that it is the first time that he really would like to hear the sound of the
patient, I played a taksim for him, that was the cost.
So Doc if you tell your non-oud-doctor that oud is a part of your heart (you can use a Roumy poem) you may convince him and it would be covered by
insurance (an extra taksim could be required)
Hey Mat, I think that now the aliens know where they should land the next time (and hearing our politicians these day I think they already did)
David, regarding the rosette, I will try to do phonetic trascription but there are many possibilities when you don't know the meaning as interleaved
calligraphy may have more than one possibility of reading.
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jdowning
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Nice work ALAMI - this must be an important 'ground breaking' study in the use of current x-ray technology (CAT scan) to further research into early
instruments. Thanks also to the anonymous empathetic and enlightened radiologist who made the experiment a reality. You should consider formally
recording and making available your experiences and findings in this project for the benefit of future researchers? Bravo!
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Dr. Oud
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The wall stud finder uses a reading of the dielectric constant of the material it is held against. There is a significant difference between a wall
stud and sheet rock or wall board, so the reading is fairly accurate for that application. Since the soundboard and braces are both wood, the
dielectric constant is the same, so the reading will vary only in signal strength, and these devices are not sensative enough or calibrated for the
minute difference in signal due to the mass of the material. That's my theory based on the principle used for stud finders. There might be other
possible methods to find braces - ultrasound imaging. May be cheaper than a cat scan or MRI; or particle dispersion - sprinkle sand or other small
particle media over the face, excite the soundboard with a vibrator and the particles should collect around the braces and disperse between them.
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