Tablah23
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who killed zikra?
you draw your own conclusions...she was the greatest voice ever(next to um kulthum..that my openion)...why was she taking away so early? i know this
is not in the right forum mike...my bad...i think it would be cool if we have a misc. section such as tarab or something...thanx all..let me know what
u think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3XfD0MyGXU
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abdulo
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Zikra sang this on 1992 when Saudi did not authorized pilgrims with Libia Airline to land on it's soil. Song was written by Mohammed Alkailani.
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damascene_oud
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I agree with you Tablah, she had a nice voice indeed. But from a practical point of view, its unfair to other singers to rank late Zikra next to Oum
Kolthoum when there is Asmahan for example. No matter how great Zikra's voice was, i guess she couldn't come even close to Asmahan in her voice,
talent, performance and musical knowledge.
I see that Zikra is ranked advanced among high-pitch sharp group of voices, which includes for example Assala and Foulla. They depend basically on
their ability to sing high notes regardless of being adequate and in the right place or not. They want to show the whole world that they have capacity
of singing high notes, irrespectively of are they doing this in the right place or not.
To know that, you just need to listen to these ladies while singing Oum Koltoum's songs, and they do what is known as "tafarid", thinking that they
can immitate Oum Koltoum in her well known unparalleled style. But again they just fail in capturing the hearer's attention by doing this for two
simple reasons:
1-They do it, as i said, to show they can fly in their voices to high notes regardless of they are singing "tarab" or not.
2-They do that in places where it cannot be done, or least to say shouldn't be done, and ultimately they end up in despair on how to end this and save
themselves from this delimma they had thrown themselves in.
My own personal opinion, its totally unfair to either one to compare to others.
I always say we should constructively critisize singers grouped in one category like Zikra, Assala, Foulla and others of the same group of high-pitch
voices.
And leave Oum Koltoum out of this since it belongs to a group of voices that had nobody except hers.
For me i really like Zikra's voice and appreciate her style.
And was very sad to see that her most well known song, was the one that came out as she was killed "Youm lik w youm 3aleik" and she didn't have the
chance to pick the fruits of her song.
May god rest her soul.
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dandana
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Thank you damascene_oud for this remark;
I agree with you concerning your analysis why these great singers fail to parallel summits like Souma! In their attempt to imitate her style they do
nothing else but performing, and that's the whole difference between an innovator (mobdi'i and motrib in arabic, derived from Tarab! cf our discussion
in the thread about Naseer Shamma and definition of Tarab!) and a performer.
Another thing which is to be said, with all my respect (and even love) to a lot of significant figures of music and singinig today, is that getting
the audienc's attention is not a question of high performance only: it depends on the singer's personality, his artistic intelligence and many factors
in relation with his cultural and musical back-ground. You all know how much time did El sit (the lady Om Kolthoum) spend in preparing her songs and
her performances, it's not propaganda to get the foul's attention, no: it reflects her respect to her art and her devotion! She performed to be
remembered forever, she did never sing seeking applause. And that's a big thing for the people listening to her; the audience feels this "human
radiation" during these live performances, contrary to registered works of today where there's really so little interaction between the performer and
the audience.
It's no critic to anyone, especially not to Zikra whom I respect a lot, but this is to be said.
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Tablah23
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thanx for your response guys i wanted to see what u thought on the video itself...i did not know that we had started a conversation as to where she
stands in music history...hahha...but since u mentioned it..i said she stands in my personal openion NEXT to um kulthum....but if u really want to
break this down....music is an art not a science...but ill pparticipate in your game damascene
1.there is in no way that you can even compare FULLA or ASALA to THEKRA. thats just funny to me...indeed asala has a beautiful voice bas too much
estna3yee bel edaaa...thikra has more a7sas then both of them put together (and dont let asala fool you with her hand movements...most of the time its
nashaz my friend....fulla bit saye77 ..thats all she does she yells...im not taking away anything from these two but u can not compare them too
thekra...thekra's song WA7YATI 3NDAK al7an sala7 sharnubi...is better then 80 perecent of asala's lifetime work as far as adaa2( delivery) period
regardless of voice and thats big...with 2 excepions that can compare...sama7tak for asala and the other 2ad el 7eroof composed by the great 3bed el
jo7ar.)
2. HIGH PITCH VOICE??? please my friend i urge you to listen to Thekra again....ur right about one thing thikra has a high pitch (that is when she
wants too) that is called RANGE..neither asala nor fulla have that range because u need that high pitch (gawab ) which they do have about you also
need somthing called KARRAR to complete the defenition of that...something they dont have...
im a little dissapointed in your comparison..i thought maybe you would have mentioned raga belmalie7 in relation to some of the a7sas el bit adee
zikra.
again NEXT to umm kulthum not better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZjJOzQjIiw
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Tablah23
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sorry asala hahaha shes great but no thekra in my mind....and im syrian hahahah u want to represent for syrian singer...go myada all the way..duel3a
and baptuma represent haha.
thanx guys bye.
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Tablah23
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sorry for the gramatical errors heres a fixed up version with an addition
haha im trying to get my post game up so mike wont get mad ive been inactive since 2004.
thanx for your response guys i wanted to see what u thought on the video itself...i did not know that we had started a conversation as to where she
stands in music history...hahha...but since u mentioned it..i said she stands in my personal openion NEXT to um kulthum....but if u really want to
break this down....music is an art not a science...but ill participate in your fun damascene haha.
1.there is in no way that you can even compare FULLA or ASALA to THEKRA. thats just funny to me...indeed asala has a beautiful voice bas too much
estna3yee bel edaaa...thikra has more a7sas then both of them put together (and dont let asala fool you with her hand movements...most of the time its
nashaz my friend hahah....fulla bit saye77 ..thats all she does she yells...im not taking away anything from these two but u can not compare them too
thekra...thekra's song WA7YATI 3NDAK al7an sala7 sharnubi...is better then 80 perecent of asala's lifetime work as far as adaa2( delivery) period
regardless of voice and thats big...with 2 exceptions that can come into my mind at this time to even compare...sama7tak for asala and the other 2ad
el 7eroof composed by the great 3bed el jo7ar.)
2. HIGH PITCH VOICE??? please my friend i urge you to listen to Thekra again....ur right about one thing thikra has a high pitch (that is when she
wants too) that is called RANGE..neither asala nor fulla have that range( u can see i dont really agknowledge fulla because maybe she can hit those
high notes but after a while kiluu saya7 be saya7 all yelling) because u need that high pitch (gawab ) which they do have about you also need
something called KARRAR to complete the defenition of that...something they dont have... listen to the range in the video below...high pitched?
3. there is something to be said in arabic music thats different then any other type of music in the world or what differentiates our music and our
vocalist or mutarbeen then any other..again sure we can get scientific in order to satisfy those types of minds but and list things such as CALL AND
RESPONSE and quarter tones..whatever...but again...it comes down to tarab and edaaa...something has to be said of rai'7at el edaaa...the ease of
delivery and edaaa itself...in the video below see how easy the edaaa is for thikra ..like its nothing..somethiing i cannot say for fulla whose
yelling half the time..nor asala..this is something u see in great legends...um kulthum..asma7an...3bdel wa7ab...karem mo7mood and even with the high
pitched muwasha7at in saba7 fakhri and damascene ofcourse you know MOHAMAD KHAYREE...its the ease of the delivery and how its done...and the edaa
itself...thats why u listen to wadie3 el safi...lesatoo safi? lesa fi sout? no there is not...but khayaloo lel maghna el edaa lesatoo mawjood thats
why u stil listen to wadie3 at this age...that is something that thekra had. (all yer7ama7a)
im a little dissapointed in your comparison..i thought maybe you would have mentioned raga belmalie7 in relation to some of the a7sas el bit adee
zikra bas fulla?
again NEXT to umm kulthum not better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZjJOzQjIiw
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damascene_oud
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Dear Tablah,
First of all thanks a lot for the time you spent in reading the words i wrote, but you should have put on more effort in understanding what i
wrote.
I didn't mean at all to impress you, actually that was the least in my objectives when i wrote those words. And if you felt disappointed, i'm sorry to
say that it's your problem and i don't have any obligation nor impact toward this.
I didn't at all mean to underestimate Zikra's voice or talent, actually i cannot, and nobody can, since she has some really nice works.
But that doesn't mean at all that i should cahgne my opinion about her.
She, Assala, Fulla and others of the same group of voices usually think they possess vocal capacities fitting of Sopranos and forget what is called in
arabic music as "Tarab" and that this doesn't mean at all produce brassy, ear blowing sounds regardless of whether they are doing in right or not.
I might agree with you on one point, which is: yes Zikra had more feelings in her performance rather than Fulla or even Assala. She sang from her
throat not from her head liek the later two do. Also she has put heartly touches to her style which made her different from the others.
I fact i shall never forget the lousy performance Fulla gave the other days, when they broadcasted her on Rotana Tarab singing Oum Kolthoum's "Inta
Omri"
My gosh the least i can describe her is:
a real disaster on stage.
She made many "tafarid" in that song where even Oum Koltoum herself did not due to the captivating nature of the music Abdel wahab has made.
Fulla must have imagined at that moment one of two things:
Either, that Oum Kolthom was idiot and forgot to make "tafarid" in that song,
or she "fulla" can surpass Oum Koltoum by doing what the latter had not done at all in that song. In either cases the result was appauling and to me
was a total repulsive, and showed how short sighted toda's singers are in terms of their talent and/or vocal capacities.
But again my friend, i still possess that point of view about Zikra and still categorize her "in terms of nature of voice" with those group of voices
called
"high pitch voice" or brassy voices.
And if you would feel disappointed again, sorry for that, but that won't make any difference from my side.
That's my point of view i'm not imposing it on anyone, and it's my prerogativ eot express my stand point of any matter, regardless of whether it would
be appreciated or not.
Why do we always fail to implement the western standard "we agree to disagree" and take things personally.
Last and again "allah yerham Zikra"
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damascene_oud
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One last thing dear, i want to elaborate of that matter.
Again nobody dares to think that she would be ranked next to Oum Koltoum, for a simple reason, they know they cannot stand the comparison the audience
will difinitely make, and that they will crack down under the plows of the critics and audience alike.
Greater singers than Zikra refused to be ranked next to Oum Kolthoum. When Suad Mohammed was told that she is supposed the successor of Oum Kolthoum,
she did not accept that and confirmed that she won't be able to do so, though her voice and talent could be ranked within Oum Kolthoum's group of
voices.
But Zikra, naaaaa i don't think so.
She is totally different...unless you want to compare Zikra when she died at the age of 40 something to Oum Kolthoum's voice when she was the same
age, then that's another story. But i wouldn't do that if i were you and wanted to preserve the image i have about Zikra, simply because the gap
between the two in such comparison will difinitely become wider beyond any capacity to bridge.
"allah yerham Zikra & Oum Kolthoum"
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Tablah23
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hey appreciate the reply
and yes i choose to agree to disagree with you.....i understand what you are saying... u want to place these singers or to catagorize them in the
nature of there voice or "tamber," but even in that i disagree...zikra did not have a "naturally soprano" type voice i again stress to you the range
that she posessed that may have skewed your perception towards that..which is understandable since the the only other 2 singers you can compare her
too (asala or fulla) do not possess this quality of range, nothing more than just high pitch.
you see my friend this breakdown of ARABIC music itself is the problem here...you have to look at the big picture and in the big picture, arabic
music should not be looked at from a western point of view or from the point of view of a ethnomusicologist for that matter...how can you when our
music is full of "tafridat" improvisations, mawaweel, taqsim?...you just cannot my friend...but again in the overall picture, though i may not dare to
even speak of asala and definetly not full'as name in the same sentence of Um Kulthum...over all i do dare to say zikra possessed the same qualities
of true arabic music..tarab , true classical whatever have you..form her a7sas to her eddaa to her voice...
take care friend
p.s where in damascus are you from?
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spyros mesogeia
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damascene_oud
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Dear Tablah,
I still remember late Zikra's performance in one of the Khaliji Jalssat with Mohammed Abdo, when then she sang his famous song "Galbi 3aleik elta3" i
really known that she possess not only good voice, but also a decent talent and "aah" capturing performance. I meant to tell you dear friend that i
dare not under-estimate her voice or performance, but also wouldn't at all say that she is far from those group of voices categorized as high-pitch
"sawt 7add".
In Western Classic music as you may know, female voices are divided into different groups, for instance Soprano: which is the group of voices that has
high-pitch and can perform high notes on scale, and their resonance and vibration is higher that other types of voices. But needless to say, not all
females who were sopranos had beautiful voices, for example there was Maria Callas, Joan Sutherland, Jullie Bonds, Maria Tibaldi and others. Among
them, and to all critics Callas, Sutherland and Tibaldi had the nicest voices, and could fly high in their singing. Callas once in 1959 in Mexico when
she was performing Verdi's Aida she hit Mi Bimol high and held it there for 6 beats, still her voice to some people is not nice as they describe it as
hauloring and yelling.
I know that this might be a little bit to ambiguous to implement to oru case of Zikra and others. I meant to tell you, FOR ME, those three ladies can
surely scream to hight notes very easily, BUT not all of them can manage to snatch out an "aah" from my chest. Fulla in her latest appearnce on Rotana
Tarab managed very efficiently to snatch out a big "yuk" out of my stomache in her terribly and unbelievable lousy singing of Oum Klothoum's Inta
Omri.
But on the other hand as i told you, i felt so happy when once i listened to Zikra singing Mohammed Abdo's famous song. She gave a pleasant
performance and demonstrated her skills very successfully.
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Tablah23
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no doubt
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