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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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I have officially been turned off this style of oud. I love and appreciate the music of the oud and most of its players, But I feel the oud is turning
into a mishmash, an instrument foreign from its tradition...thank you Shamma!
Shamma played two pieces in row and they both sounded exactly the same. Its enough! Melodies are now swamped by chords and strumming and it doesnt
sound like oud anymore...wheres is the emotion? and real tarab?
Its ok to use chords and ukele technique as an ornament now and then, but pieces are now dictated by it.
All the players that come from that Shamma school sound the same. Although I really like Hazem Shaheens playing, his toota piece was swamped by this
chordal junk, whats wrong with the farido version? same when the young Abozekry plays, he is a clone of Shamma, where is personality and uniqueness.
This is the problem with the school, a GREAT technique and a poor soul.
They have to go back to the basics and the sweetness of the oud and taqqasim. Simon Shaheen, Adel Salmeh, Munir Bashir, Jospeh Tawadros, Anouar Brahem
all lead the way in fluent 'unswamped' real oud playing. They have a gentleness and sensitivity which says much more than Shammas pieces in the way
of emotion and they dont have to talk half an hour before to make up some story to go with it. The Shamma school doesnt have this.
It sounds like he is fighting with the oud, instead of a beautiful natural flow in playing. I have seen him play some good pieces but recently its all
mishmash. Farid is full of Tarab and emotion, Unfortunately the Shamma is over ruled by technique(and what a great technique) but a technique that is
overdone and strangles the music. Im sorry if Ive upset anyone with my view, but does anyone out there share my opinion? and Im glad I can share my
view.
Annoyed James
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jazzchiss
Oud Junkie
Posts: 217
Registered: 12-20-2004
Location: Madrid
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Mood: Improvising
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We shouldn't criticize the small obsessions of a great musician. For many musicians (even minor musicians like me) is very important the height and
comfort of a chair. I remember when I was young I was asked to play the guitar on an university stage, it was a free concert and I wasn't very
interested, I claimed I could only play comfortable in the sofa I had at home. They offered to carry my sofa and I had to play there!
I think this is not important, and plus that Shamma's throne looks to me more like a pliable chair, quite easy to carry.
We better discuss about the sound and the music. The sound of his (Yoroub?) oud is a bit dirty but this is more a style than a defect. Comparing
Shamma with Farid is difficult because is not the same kind of music. Shamma is a great composer and Farid plays the same taqsim again and again, he's
great but I can't listen to him more than once a year!
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charlie oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 694
Registered: 11-19-2007
Location: Newcastle upon tyne. UK
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Mood: chords prefer frets
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James, I feel I know where you are coming from. The issues you raise have substance and you are certainly not alone with feelings of disillusionment.
At the end of the day though, we have choices, who we choose to listen to; who we choose for inspiration; who we choose to learn from; what we choose
to believe etc....This fundamental existential choice has been my saviour on many an occasion when my heart & soul feels disapointment. I like
your reference to those maestros who can move us with thier touch & musicallity, they are never forgotten so long as we "choose" to remember them.
Its difficult at times to be unaffected by others & maybe we need not appologise for upseting some oud player,s fans if the player in question has
upset us?, my hope is that we see these debates as healthy, a stirring of passions around a beautiful instrument. Hope this helps in some small way.
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
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Mood: Al Salam
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Greetings all- It's interesting to see how a discussion on Naseer's chair has evolved to include his playing technique and his 'school' of music; I
guess it was bound to happen- a player like Naseer, no matter what anyone thinks of him, will always hold our attention and be a source of differening
opinions.
I think James Oud presents a good argument, and highlights what some feel are a few of the differences between the 'old school' of oud playing where
'tarab' was perhaps more in abundance, Farid being the best example of this style, and the newer styles of playing, with a lot of flash, speed,
chords, flamenco influences and so on. For me, the answer lies somewhere in between Farid and Naseer. Every generation of musicians bring forth new
ideas and techniques and interpretations to fit the times.
I always find great inspiration,enjoyment and a sense of real tarab from listening to Farid or Sunbati, but I also feel as much inspiration from
listening to what Naseer and other modern players have to say with the oud. Just as I listen to Bach and to Led Zeppelin.
I find that Naseer's playing reflects the emotions of the times we are living in, and his technique is pretty darn good to say the least. I think the
current state of the world and things like youtube and mass communications needed someone like Naseer to emerge, and if it wasn't Naseer, it would be
someone else playing in his style.
Regarding his throne, well maybe as Jazzchis points out, he feels comfortable in it, it's easy to get back or neck pains if you are not comfortable
sitting with your oud, and perhaps this throne is just right for him? If we can appreciate a really intricate MOP inlay on an oud's soundboard as in
Abdel Wahab's oud, then why not the 'throne'? As long as he dosen't start wearing a crown! 
Here is an interesting thread on Naseer posted not too long ago in the forum:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6319#pid382...
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Great
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Thanks Charlie. Its just I am very passionate and it annoys me to think that Shamma is now the face of oud in the middle east when he totally sways
away from Arabic music tradition and makes it a guitar/ukele rather than oud. I dont mind a little variation and innovation, but this now dominates
his style and the simple sweet Arabic style is being lost to him. He is the head of beit al oud(house of oud) in Cairo and is producing robot players
with his same style.
I want Qassabji, Sunbati, Farido. And if we think Iraqi, Munir Bashir was amazing, simple, beautiful and experimented aswell but not over the top.
It is choice, and although he does have some nice playing I might as well listen to guitarists who do that style much better than Shamma.
Settling down James
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revaldo29
Oud Junkie
Posts: 418
Registered: 6-24-2004
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Mood: inspired
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JamesOud
Shamma played two pieces in row and they both sounded exactly the same. Its enough! Melodies are now swamped by chords and strumming and it doesnt
sound like oud anymore...wheres is the emotion? and real tarab?
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I too felt the two pieces were very dry and stale. In fact, my friend who studied in spain and listened with me told me it sounded just like
flamenco. Lets face it, the playing was more "showing off" to the arab world than anything. However, I am not going to dismiss shamma so easily. I
still get goosebumps when I listen to to "Al Amirrya" or "Ughniyet Hub Sharqia".
Lets not dismiss his accomplishments and talents out of a sheer nostalgia for a certain style of playing and narrow the specturm of what is defined as
Tarab. The man is (was?) an innovator and a musical genius.
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
Member Is Offline
Mood: Al Salam
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JamesOud
It is choice, and although he does have some nice playing I might as well listen to guitarists who do that style much better than Shamma.
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You have a good point here JamesOud. For example, when it comes to playing in the flamenco style on one's oud, I haven't heard any oud player yet play
flamenco better than say Paco de Lucia or Tomatito.
if I want flamenco with real tarab/duende and cajones give me Paco de Lucia or Tomatito any day.
Of course that dosen't imply that oud players can't have fun playing 'arab flamenco', as long as they don't take themselves too seriously. I think the oud is capable of many styles of music and we can have fun at it.
Oud players from Farid to Naseer are brilliant at other things, but flamenco, in my opinion, is still played best by the great guitarists such as Paco
de Lucia, whose technique and skill is simply incredible.
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Kalifa MOH 55
Oud Admirer
Posts: 9
Registered: 12-5-2007
Location: E L Michigan
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Mood: No Mood
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the way he plyes and the way his helping his people he can pring a camel to the intervio if he wants
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
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I think it is a mistake to say there is a 'correct' way to play the oud. A lot of people don't want to hear anything but the most traditional style
on the oud but I really like the more contemporary stuff and think it does a great service to the oud world.
It's my opinion that the oud is just as much a 'real' instrument as the guitar, violin, etc. It's not just an 'ethnic instrument'.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
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Way to go James oud I share your opinions 100%
I was a big fan... then i started disliking him after his comments and in the end after this little episode I am downright done with him.
Farid and Naseer those two names don't belong in the same sentence. there are no grounds to compare them whatsoever and Naseer doesn't deserve the
honor truthfully since he himself critisized his playing.
he is a business man and he does a good job at selling himself to the general public. people forgot what a real oud player is and what the oud should
sound like.
Honestly he is gaining grounds as a pioneer trough his sales pitch but only because the people are not educated and dont remember the essence of what
the oud is.
How is it that young players in cairo are going to his school? they want the flash and the pizazz of it, nothing more.
If I share your opinion James i also know that Iam not the only one and the other oud players and music lovers that i meet also think the same thing.
Jason you know i like you but hear me out on this one.
The oud is a symbol and an institution in the arab world. it represents so much culturally and in terms of identity. Its very much a real instrument
but it is our instrument when its taken out of its context it looses its soul. When I hear the playing of someone like Brian Prunka (sorry to put you
the spot) from our boards Iam really wowed!! he can play traditional forms 100 times better then myself or other oud players that studied the arabic
music repertoire Iam so amazed. But the fact of the matter is that he spent so much time studying the true way of playing the oud is what is
impressive.
When I hear players arab or occidental that are taking the oud out of its context I have to admit that Iam not the only one who feels like it is an
abomination.
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Oud Freak
Oud Junkie
Posts: 291
Registered: 11-23-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oud Jerk
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Jazzchiss, eres el mejor! Deberias ser un negociador de paz
Fully agree with Jason, I also have this vision of an instrument which is very rich and still not wholly explored. Despite being an admirer, I
criticize Mr. Shamma for many things and it is true though that he has more technique than feeling...
The old school doesn't have to be denied and has to remain fully respected. But sticking all the time to them is kind of preventing the oud to
develop, new styles have to appear, some of them will be a failure and some of them a real success. Even the old school isn't perfect. In the old
school I particularly admire and am fully crazy of riad sumbati's feeling and taqassim. I can hear them all day long.
On another hand there is another "old school" player whose playing and oud sound is unbearable to me, but I won't mention any name because some people
will be offended.
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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Guys,
Im not against innovation and chords, But I feel the music is now dominated by this. Every piece he plays has to have chords and some type of
strumming. Guys, dont forget he is the face of the oud of the Arab world, yet he stays away from anything that ties it back to tradition. And the
generation thats learning from him plays exactly the same (eg. Abozekry).
Shamma has to be criticized, he needs to simplify. He makes the oud sound like a Ukelele, even when he plays Ya Msahrni by Oum Kalsoum.
Im not saying he hasnt done great things for the oud, but Im worried about the direction its going. In the interview the presenter is complimenting
him so much and i bet you he has no idea whats going on. Listening to a mishmash of sound. As I said before Shamma fights with his instrument, I feel
its violent, rather than gentle beautiful playing.
Thanks Samir and Revaldo
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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Also I have heard some amazing recording for Mohamed Al Qassabji experimenting with chords, strumming, speed, pivots etc but yet he still holds the
respect of most(all) oud players. Its because he never let technique overcloud his emotion. He is the true face of Qassabji. I also think Sunbati
should get a mention, hes amazing! Innovation withing phrases, he innovated through his own tradition, Shamma innovates using other peoples
tradition.
Calming down James...
Long live tarab!
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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Hey Samir . . . you made me blush, you're too kind. I have so much to learn, every time I think I've got something figured out I hear some incredibly
simple-sounding (but of course not really simple) piece or phrase played in true tarab style, and I feel like a complete beginner . . .
I guess I should weigh in on shamma while I'm here (just to keep it on-topic )
I can totally see why someone would bring his own chair with him to perform, I can't tell you how many times I've shown up to play somewhere and been
given some completely inappropriate chair for playing oud. And if you're going to bring your own chair, might as well make it a nice one.
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SamirCanada
Jason you know i like you but hear me out on this one.
The oud is a symbol and an institution in the arab world. it represents so much culturally and in terms of identity. Its very much a real instrument
but it is our instrument when its taken out of its context it looses its soul. When I hear the playing of someone like Brian Prunka (sorry to put you
the spot) from our boards Iam really wowed!! he can play traditional forms 100 times better then myself or other oud players that studied the arabic
music repertoire Iam so amazed. But the fact of the matter is that he spent so much time studying the true way of playing the oud is what is
impressive.
When I hear players arab or occidental that are taking the oud out of its context I have to admit that Iam not the only one who feels like it is an
abomination. |
I really understand where you're coming from and respect your opinion. In the 60's many african-americans had some of the same feelings about
american jazz. It was music anyone could play but it certainly meant more, culturally, to some people. Even if I may not agree with that opinion I
do respect it and understand what you mean by it. 
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
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About that chair... about playing in a comfortable chair... that thing is not designed for comfort or ease of transport.
thats cool Jay. I see your point but I feel its not comparable. Iam not saying its not right for anyone to play the oud ( it should be played by as
many people as possible its true). its not who are the players that is the problem its how its played.
Iam saying its not right to take it out of a highly respectful place that has taken 1000 years to develop and for the instrument to reach the status
of the Sultan of Arabic instruments. taking it out of this place to confine it to play only minor and major scales. Its a shame i find.
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
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Mood: Al Salam
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hi everyone- there has been some reference to 'arab flamenco' in this thread, which I assume is the current popularity with some oud players in the
use of chords and flamenco phrasing used by guitarists on the oud.
I've mentioned Paco de Lucia as one of the great ambassadors of modern flamenco guitar, and it occured to me that maybe some members in the forum have
not heard him, so here is one youtube clip of the guy in action on an average night. And to think he does it all with his fingers, no risha!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9vNSA0WNlw&feature=related
and a younger Paco:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBKarHlP4KU&feature=related
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gilgamesh
Oud Junkie
Posts: 206
Registered: 10-4-2007
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Mood: in the mood
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 This fine topic shows that we can go very far with only a folding chair,
as far as a thoroughbred 
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norumba
Oud Junkie
Posts: 220
Registered: 12-15-2003
Location: Taos
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Having spent may years as a flamenco player first before going to oud and then sarod, i'd like to chime in on this...
I think there has to be a distinction between innovation and good , heartful playing. The two are not mutually exclusive but by the same token, they
are not the same thing, either, and more importantly, there is not a causal relationship between the two.
I appreciate what Shamma is trying to do, but i dont think its done well. i like the ukelele analogy, It really does sound like bad flamenco-lite
on an out of tune ukelele. His technique isnt that well developed either, IMO - because his chords arent really that well in tune. I know its a
bitch to do chords well on the oud, but if youre going to go down that path, you need to nail it.
Music has to innovate, it has to come forward, - and innovators will either enrich their traditions or weaken it. Its a choice and responsibility
you have to be aware of , if youre wanting to be on the cutting edge. (Paco de Lucia has a lot to answer for in this regard as well, as the harmonic
choices he made and brought back really set flamenco on a very weakened trajectory, IMO, but thats another story).
i think Shamma is still wrestling with those kind of choices and issues. You hear it in his playing actually, this struggle, this search: hes trying
so hard to make whats in his head *work*musically, but its not there yet - so we're witness to the struggle, rather than the result. Hes not at peace
with his vision yet.
i thought the chair thing is way over the top and a bit pretentious - quite a hoot i dont buy the comfort thing for that chair, cause he's still using a footstool, so its not for ergonomics. When chairs were crucial to me ( now i
just sit on the floor) , Id send approximate dimensions to the promoter for gigs: "Please supply an armless chair, approximately x high and y deep"-
never a problem.
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 102
Registered: 7-22-2004
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Mood: Great
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Good point on the chords. This is a good is example when 'the out of tune-ness' of the the chords doesnt matter because its suppossed to be an
innovation on the oud and all the people are impressed with it.
Although I still think he has a great plucking technique, hes style is weak and very weak in culture. And again this is why Im disappointed that
people see him as the face of the oud in the middle east and abroad in some cases, when he really plays nothing to do with it.
I think he should switch to the ukelele or get a guitar because this is obviously where his heart lies...
Au Revoir...
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Oud Freak
Oud Junkie
Posts: 291
Registered: 11-23-2007
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Mood: Oud Jerk
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Jamesoud, you have a point there. His excessive speedy playing and overcrowded with notes is not that neat when he wants to impress, not because of
him, I only think that it is too much for an oud.
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
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Well sorry to be so late to pick up on this, and I agree we shouldn't get too ad hominem about our judgements but I have to admit guiltily a certain
amount of glee at seeing Nassir brought down a peg. You see I'm a bit of a coward and have watched these forums for quite a long time grinding my
teeth at the usual adulation that greets mention of his name. I respect this adulation and I respect that Nassir has talent and supports political
causes, but my own personal feelings on this is that he's quite a ways from the best there is - as a musician and as a person. I find his music bland,
overly technical with too much obvious emotion and not enough emotional intelligence. Also I'd love to hear him play just a little more often outside
of Ajam. And yes, as others have noted, he does seem to want to be Paco de Lucia (who I'm afraid isn't someone I feel it worth aspiring to musically
either). Aside from pumping himself up in the comments people have quoted I seem to remember him also describing himself as the best oud player ever
and denigrating Farid al-Attrache as a bit of a hick. Well, Farid is the epitome of a style which emphasises heart over head and I wouldn't mind if
he'd said this wasn't his preference, but the truth is, if you do prefer a more intellectual style, you're not going to find rich pickings in one of
Naseer's formulaic performances. As for his political comments, I agree with all of them, but am not convinced he's doing as much for the people for
whom he claims to be speaking as for his own publicity.
Having said all this, I do have to say I occasionally enjoy listening to his performances and he is a hell of a lot better than me on the oud. It's
just I think he gets a little too much kudos for playing fast and talking loud.
There. I'll crawl back into my hole now and try and keep to constructive comments in the future.
While we're on the subject though, I do really enjoy reading posts that aren't just unequivocal praise for anyone who ever touched the oud. Like I
say, I don't think we should be getting personal, and I may be overdoing it above, but I do enjoy a bit of "spice" in terms of constructive opinions
on what people find to their liking or otherwise in oud playing. There are some really people with a great deal of understanding on these forums and a
bit of robust but friendly debate would be exciting.
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Oud Freak
Oud Junkie
Posts: 291
Registered: 11-23-2007
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Mood: Oud Jerk
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveH
Well sorry to be so late to pick up on this, and I agree we shouldn't get too ad hominem about our judgements but I have to admit guiltily a certain
amount of glee at seeing Nassir brought down a peg. You see I'm a bit of a coward and have watched these forums for quite a long time grinding my
teeth at the usual adulation that greets mention of his name. I respect this adulation and I respect that Nassir has talent and supports political
causes, but my own personal feelings on this is that he's quite a ways from the best there is - as a musician and as a person. I find his music bland,
overly technical with too much obvious emotion and not enough emotional intelligence. Also I'd love to hear him play just a little more often outside
of Ajam. And yes, as others have noted, he does seem to want to be Paco de Lucia (who I'm afraid isn't someone I feel it worth aspiring to musically
either). |
Fully agreed
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Oud Freak
Oud Junkie
Posts: 291
Registered: 11-23-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oud Jerk
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| Quote: | Originally posted by DaveH
Aside from pumping himself up in the comments people have quoted I seem to remember him also describing himself as the best oud player ever and
denigrating Farid al-Attrache as a bit of a hick. Well, Farid is the epitome of a style which emphasises heart over head and I wouldn't mind if he'd
said this wasn't his preference, but the truth is, if you do prefer a more intellectual style, you're not going to find rich pickings in one of
Naseer's formulaic performances. |
opinion respected and disagreed.
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dandana
Oud Addict
Posts: 47
Registered: 6-21-2007
Location: europe
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Mood: observer!
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Hi everyone;
It's interesting to see how this topic evolved; thanks to every one of u for ur contributions.
| Quote: | Originally posted by JamesOud
... And again this is why Im disappointed that people see him as the face of the oud in the middle east and abroad in some cases, when he really plays
nothing to do with it.
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One very important thing though:
I don't agree with u James Oud. Who said that he's the face of the oud in the middle east? U have to differenciate between 2 things, the public
"emotional" applause for a performer (and i didn't say artist!) and his artistic level. This second notion is an evaluation made by both experts and
... history witnessing the evolution of this performer.
Besides, don't forget that innovation is fisrt received either by an imaginary enthousiasm or a complete reject and hesitation. It's after that
(sometimes years after that) that the work is analysed and evaluated seriously. So he's trying to innovate, no doubt about that, but from that to say
that he's the "face " of the oud in the middle east, i doubt a lot about that.
I admit, though, that he and others like him (too many to be mentioned one by one) from those innovators in the modern arabic music and oud playing,
have all contributed to bring forward and introduce this magical instrument, the oud, to the whole world. That's to be said. The modern media is
surely doing its job very well also!
Yet i enjoy some of his works (and not all!) inspite of all my critics sometime. That's how i see art: evaluating the work regardless of our opinion
on the person performing (of course it's up to everyone to see things the way he likes).
One last thing, i think that time will tell us a lot about players like Shamma, because it won't only be judging their performance and works far from
emotions, but also because it's gonna show us how did this performer's vision mature and evolve...
Goodbye
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