Oudism
Oud Maniac
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Registered: 1-27-2008
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Let's talk sound
..." there are plenty posts discussing bridges and peoples preferences, But personally I prefer stable bridge ouds for a more Arabic sound. The bridge
Turunz uses for the JT model is very effective and my oud sounds very Arabic."
This is a reply of Joseph Tawadros, to one of the members in the post of today"sama'i by JT"
What does it means the Oud sounds Arabic? I guess the correct term to use here is that the Oud with a fixed bridge sounds traditional, common, we are
used to hear this sound from the oud. Floating bridge ouds don't sound Arabic? I guess yes, they do with improvement in the sound quality and
resonnance. Do you agree?
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
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Oudism !
A question for you and for all members too (if interested ). Why Charbel rouhana,
Andre haddad, Marcel Khalifeh, Nassir Shamma (these players came to my mind but there is others of course) do use a floating bridge oud? I guess they
found something different from a ffixing brigde oud. Probably better sound projection, not sure.
In my experience, I got a cheap Oud from the net, a floating bridge (300$). Meanwhile I have a 1947 Nahat Oud. Comparing both sound, the cheap Oud has
more resonnance, more voice projection that the Old Nahaat Oud. I can't explain why since I am not an expert in Oud sound accoustic. But definetively
there is an improvment in the floating bridge as compared to a fix bridge.
So many Oudmakers visit this forum they're the people to ask probably. Oudmakers your help please !
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Oud Freak
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
Oudism !
A question for you and for all members too (if interested). Why Charbel rouhana,
Andre haddad, Marcel Khalifeh, Nassir Shamma (these players came to my mind but there is others of course) do use a floating bridge oud? I guess they
found something different from a ffixing brigde oud. Probably better sound projection, not sure.
In my experience, I got a cheap Oud from the net, a floating bridge (300$). Meanwhile I have a 1947 Nahat Oud. Comparing both sound, the cheap Oud has
more resonnance, more voice projection that the Old Nahaat Oud. I can't explain why since I am not an expert in Oud sound accoustic. But definetively
there is an improvment in the floating bridge as compared to a fix bridge.
So many Oudmakers visit this forum they're the people to ask probably. Oudmakers your help please ! |
You are right, I guess in this matter that players have to judge, instead of oud makers, indeed much more projection and nice features in floating
bridge oud. We have also to keep in mind that regular bridge ouds have their charm too, and everything depends on the mood.
One small erratum, you mentioned Andre haddad, well it is Andre HAJJ.
Cheers!
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JT
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Hey Guys,
When I say sounds Arabic, Im talking about the Arabic school. Fixed bridge is more suited to the Iraqi school and has a specific timbre associated
with it, just like the Turkish has its own timbre.
I think players use fixed bridge ouds as they intend to be consistent in sound and clearer in the higher registers which all the players mentioned
above all perform in.
Its a matter of taste, but the fixed ouds usually have that Arabic sound, less sustain etc but again I think it is strongly to do with the maker and
not just bridge. Its one of the mysteries of instrument making I guess...
JT
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
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JT
I agree totally with you regarding the timbre issue. Reason why you see no turkich OUdmaker has done a floating bridge oud (as far as I know). They
consider the floating bridge Oud does not generate the timbre of the tradinional Oud and the reason is that the ossillation of the strings on a fixed
bridge moves differently as compared to strings on a floating bridge. So basically, the waves generated from strings on a floating bridge are
different. Note that, every oud maker has his own timbre also even on a fixed bridge. So the timbre is not mainly a function of the bridge usage. The
bridge has a role in timbre but I am not sure if also the bridge plays a role in the volume of the sound.
Looking into guitars, there is no preferential usage of floating bridge as compared to a fixed.; otherwise we would see a bias toward a floating
bridge usage in all accoustic guitar which is not the case.
On ouds it seems to me there is a preferential usage of floating bridge these days. Why? is it a matter of better sound? Personally speaking yes, from
a modest experience comparing both ouds, but I cannot generalize.
We need to ask Mr Nazih ghadban, he has done both kind of ouds and I guess he has the answer since he has done so many ouds, that probably are
different only by the bridge.
Oups, I wrote a lot..sorry
Best 
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Oud Freak
Oud Junkie
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Yeah it is nice to take a luthier's opinion for sure. I like Nazih's fixed bridge ouds, really beautiful sound. Unfortunately didn't try his floating
bridge ouds.
Remember though that the player is the last judge cos he is the one using and living with the instrument. The taste, which is a very subjective issue,
is the judge.
Cheers
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
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Oud Freak
since you are in contact with oudmaker Fadi Matta,what can he tell? I know that he's doing floating bridge Ouds these days with the adjustable neck
(like your ouds). Does he have a preference between floating or fixed bridge?
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Don't forget the importance that strings have on the sound of an oud.
When I was working in Cairo in the early 1960's the strings then available for the oud were still made from gut for the trebles and silk filament
overspun with brass wire for the basses. In earlier times only 'plain' silk and gut strings were used. Modern nylon strings - that are no doubt
universally used today for the oud - did not make their appearance on the market until the 1960's. Therefore, what is today judged by players as a
'traditional' oud sound is just a modern perception as an oud strung with plain silk or gut strings will sound quite different from one strung with
nylon. Unfortunately once technologies such as traditional instrument making or string making have been abandoned by each generation - the expertise
going to the grave with the makers - it becomes almost impossible to recreate and replicate the original technical achievements that may have taken
centuries to evolve.
The discussion about bridge design is not new to the forum but one question that it raises is should an oud like instrument that has a bridge design
other than the traditional oud fixed bridge developed over the centuries be called an oud? For example, by all accounts, the so called 'floating
bridge' is a recent development applied to the oud dating back only to the 1950's - an idea presumably mimicking the 'floating bridge' concept 19th C
Italian mandolins. Such instruments obviously have their following, they sound different and may be louder and better suited for performances to
larger audiences (or even for performances of Westernised 'pop' music?). Perhaps it would be more accurate to name these instruments as
"Mandolin-Ouds" or some other appropriate name to distinguish them from 'real ouds'? Likewise instruments fitted with classical guitar bridges might,
on the same basis, be called " guitar ouds". Not sure about "electric ouds" though.
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Oud Freak
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| Quote: | Originally posted by katakofka
Oud Freak
since you are in contact with oudmaker Fadi Matta,what can he tell? I know that he's doing floating bridge Ouds these days with the adjustable neck
(like your ouds). Does he have a preference between floating or fixed bridge?
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Well, Matta says that each kind of oud has its beauty and charm, and that floating bridge ouds and regular bridge oud are different and not really
comparable. He gave me an example of a guitar maker he once met in France. This guitar maker makes conventional guitars and something like floating
bridge guitars, and he also says that both are different and not really comparable.
As for Matta's taste, he surely prefers floating bridge ouds, since they have more echo, more sustain, more volume, more charm. I think I do too. In
fact I like both. I can't be 100% sure that I prefer floating bridge ouds, since I think it also depends a lot on the luthier and on how he designs
his instruments. I might prefer Matta's floating bridge and Nazih's regular bridge, nothing is pre-determined.
I repeat once more that the ultimate judge of an instrument is the player. The player has to feed the luthier back about his work, a good instrument
is the fruit of their collaboration.
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dandana
Oud Addict
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You are right jdowning; these new innovations should be regarded apart as an evolution in the instrument's history, but without going untill saying
that it is not an oud, as some might say. Just like introducing guitar keys to the oud, for abetter adjustment of the strings.
About the string issue,
i'm sur that the bridge affects the nature of the sound, but don't forget, as u say jdowning, that the strings play a major role: many floating bridge
players use metallic strings. Shouldn't we try to dissociate them? then we could discuss about the sound timbre.
One more thing, which might be able to explain why this kind of bridge is associated with iraqi school. Is it related to the fact that this meditative
way of playing (Bashir's) needs more resonance and more voice projection as u say, katakofka? Is it because low pitched passages look more audible in
this kind of "oud"? Just a question, what do u think?
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Oud Freak
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| Quote: | Originally posted by dandana
About the string issue,
i'm sur that the bridge affects the nature of the sound, but don't forget, as u say jdowning, that the strings play a major role: many floating bridge
players use metallic strings. Shouldn't we try to dissociate them? then we could discuss about the sound timbre.
One more thing, which might be able to explain why this kind of bridge is associated with iraqi school. Is it related to the fact that this meditative
way of playing (Bashir's) needs more resonance and more voice projection as u say, katakofka? Is it because low pitched passages look more audible in
this kind of "oud"? Just a question, what do u think? |
Well said.
As for Mr. jdowning's comment concerning floating bridge ouds, despite the inspiration from the mandolin, I don't see it that much as a guitar oud or
mandolin oud. Some floating bridge oud designs might be in favor of the guitar-oud sound, and some others are very bassy and give a beautiful rich
sound that can satisfy people who most demand the warmth and depth of the traditional sound.
Matta does both excellently.
I don't know about other makers' recent production of floating
bridge ouds, wish to try them soon.
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | | One more thing, which might be able to explain why this kind of bridge is associated with iraqi school. Is it related to the fact that this meditative
way of playing (Bashir's) needs more resonance and more voice projection as u say, katakofka? Is it because low pitched passages look more audible in
this kind of "oud"? Just a question, what do u think? |
Yes, indeed, there is a tradition in Iraq to use the floating bridge, but I don't think it's related to the music played. Is it sure that low pitched
are more audible? Simple experiment: hit the A string strongly with a pick, and count the second it can stay audibale. I beleive you would hear the A
for 20s as compared probably to 10s for a fixed bridge oud. If anyone would like to do this test just inform us about the results. Best tools to do
the test is using 2 ouds one fixed and one floating bridge from the same Oudmaker, same material of construction and of course same string quality.
Best
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | | Perhaps it would be more accurate to name these instruments as "Mandolin-Ouds" or some other appropriate name to distinguish them from 'real ouds'?
Likewise instruments fitted with classical guitar bridges might, on the same basis, be called " guitar ouds". Not sure about "electric ouds" though.
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You still call it oud. In france floating bridge guitar are called Manouche
guitar, gypsy people using floating bridge oud. I guess we can call it iraqi-oud.
I am not from iraq by the way, but to give credit to the iraqi oud players, there's so many good players there.
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Oudism
Oud Maniac
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Which Oud sound do you prefer between these 2 clips, regardless of the quality of the taqasim. Just sound quality of both Ouds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0XXw0hykwY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG06pqNZ_28&feature=related
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