davidg
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Saz
I hope everyone is well.
I know this is an oud forum but i thought this guy was worth mentioning. He is an amazing saz player. Especially toward the middle.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KGm8bI1-F7Q&feature=related
Oh and please check out my taksim in the Member Sound Clips. Its the post that says ' "Oud with Violin background" - davidg. ' And Andy i promise i
will get something up soon.
Thank you everyone.
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pirsultan
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I really should hold myself back from replying because I am going to sound like an old grump, but this does get into my particular area of interest
for me ... so apologies up front 
This video demonstrates a trend that has become quite prevelent in Turkey recently (last 2 or 3 years) notably by people such as Cem Çelebi. That is,
some sort of technique competition. There are a lot of young guys playing as fast as they can, using chording technique and (inevitably) some
şelpe (finger style) playing. Which is all well and good of course - there is everything to be gained from developing technique. My gripe is that
it does not necessarıly make for good rate "music". And now they tend to put on stage and screen any young player that can make a fist of this
stuff.
Take şelpe style for instance. This was developed into a virtuosic style by the late Hasret Gültekin and Arif Şağ (and later Erdal
Erzincan and Erol Parlak) in the early 1990s derived from traditional playing styles as can be heard in recording of, for example, Nesimi Çimen (who
like the aforementioned Hasret was murdered in Sivas). If you listen to Sağ playing for example his composition Direniş you will hear how
virtuoso technique serves the music rather than being showy for showy's sake. At the Pir Sultan Abdal festival last year there were a couple of (well
known) players (no names!) who played like this Ceyhan character and mostly bored the audience who were much more engaged with the likes of Tolga
Sağ, Erdal and Mercan Erzincan, Dertli Divani or genuine local performers like İsmail Şimşek. The challenge for real musicianship
is to develop technique and use it to serve the music not to express how fancy your playing is.
Without in the least wishing to NOT acknowledge the technical ability of someone like Ceyhan, my view is that musically this is nonsense.
Apologies for the sermon, but it hits a nerve with someone who has been closely following Turkish bağlama playing (and Alevi music in particular)
for 20 years! It's hard to not have an opinion. And I recognise that it is ultimately a matter of taste and each to their own.
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Peyman
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Hi Pirsultan,
I love Alevi music too. I am glad an expert posted here. Can you clarify how the specific technique called "parmak cekmek" (the double tapping") was
introduced to selpe? Is it a modern technique or is it part of the old selpe repertoire?
I have also seen slepe being done on the oud!!! I hope I didn't upset you with that one.
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pirsultan
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Hi Peyman. Nice to know there is another person on the list who appreciates Alevi music. Actually I know there are one or two others. 
I am not a şelpe expert though I certainly got interested in it when Arif Sağ really started popularısıng this virtuosic style.
(I admit my own attempts are rather ordinary!) As far as I am aware, the parmak çekmek technique (I understand you mean the tapping on the neck with
the fingers) is not traditional - by which I mean it was not used in traditional and ritual (cem) performance from which the şelpe (or pençe)
technique derived. If you listen to recordings of Nesimi Çiman or Alevi dedes (or even regional Alevi style specialists like Gani Pekşen) the
playing is a much simpler with strumming techniques together with some picking of the notes with the fingers. My assumption is that Arif Sağ
introduced the finger tapping in the early 90s (Sağ is responsible for most of the developments in playing bağlama in the past 25 years; so
it is a fair assumption!). The seminal piece to use the technique is Direniş ('resistance'), and comes from his 1993 concert recording of the
same name and he also incorporated this style of şelpe in his 1995 studio album Umit. The real expert is Erol Parlak (who did his doctorate on
the technique and has written a couple of şelpe methods). I would need to check the books to see if he offers any more detail on the history of
the technique.
Certainly I think I could say that this style is a concert style of playing and it would not be used in the traditional ritual performance context.
Regards
Paul
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Peyman
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Thanks for the clarification. I have Erol's book and will check it later. The notations on those shelpe books are a bit complicated (and
intimidating). I wish he offered some kind of a cd with them.
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pirsultan
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I know my comments have been somewhat off topic - for this thread and the forum; so apologies for that - but perhaps readers will indulge me for one
more post.
Peyman, as you have the Erol Parlak şelpe method you can read the historical overview he provides. I went back and had another look myself and
noted that Parlak also highlights the place of Ramazan Güngör and his üçtelli (three string) saz playing in the developement of the modern
şelpe style. I went back and listend to my CD of Güngör and it is indeed very interesting and possible to hear certain stylistic elements that
have been developed in the concert şelpe style.
Another important factor in the popularity and devleopment of finger style playing I think was the emergence of the amplified bağlama in that
facilitated the "hammer on" and string dampening techniques etc.
Finally, I think the real unsung hero in the development of şelpe is probably Hasret Gültekin. Remarkably there are some videos on YouTube of
Hasret playing şelpe. These must be from the late 80s or very early 90s. What a great tragedy his death was; he was only about 21 or 22 when he
was killed and already was one of the great and influential bağlamam players and singers.
Paul
Videos:
1) Hasret Gültekin playing şelpe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7TGei9LpwY
2) Hasret Gültekin in 1991 playing Çeke Çeke which has become the set piece for şelpe playing. Erdal Erzincan of course has become quite
famous for it. This it the orginal!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyamdNM1a2I&feature=related
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Peyman
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Hi Paul,
Yes I had heard of Gultekin and his tragedy. I am curious to know some specifics about the baglama's used for shelpe. I know there is a shelpe
baglama. I also came across a type of Baglama called "haydari," which I am assuming is used by the Alevis. I am very curious to know more about the
Haydari saz (haydar being the nickname for Hz. Ali).
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Cyberquills
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Woah! That is some amazing technique 
CQ
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pirsultan
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Hi again, Peyman.
As I have mentioned, I am not particularly "into" şelpe style and am certainly no expert, but as far as I am aware and what I have seen in
performances etc, the bağlama generally used for şelpe style is just a normal short necked (kısa sap) bağlama. I have seen on the
Toraman Müzik Evi web site some instruments called "şelpe bağlama" and these just look to me like short necked instruments with perhaps an
even shorter neck length. I have myself what is also described as a "re bağlama" (as it is tuned to a "d" pitch) which has a neck lenght of 30cm
as distinct from my other short necked bağlamas (tuned to a pitch of "c" or "b") that have a neck length of between 38 and 40 cm. The main thing
is that the body/bowl is still large, so it is different from a cura bağlama which might have the same string lenght. In brief I would say you
could describe the şelpe bağlama as having a very short neck with a large body (hang on that almost sounds like an ud )
In traditional sources the şelpe saz is a small instrument either a cura bağlama (like Nesimi Çimen played) or an üçtelli (cura
instrument with 3 single strings) such as Ramazan Güngör played). The instrument is tuned in bağlama düzeni generally (or one of the variety
of tunings Güngör used) but not the karadüzen (fifths) tuning of the long necked saz.
As for the haydari bağlama, to be honest it is not a name I recall coming across in my readings. I do know of the term from instruments used by
Hüseyin Albayrak and Mustafa Kılçık both of whom have played with Dertli Divani. I have met Mustafa when he came to Australia last year
with Divani baba and the instrument he played (which actually belonged to Divani) which may be the haydari saz is a cura like instrument with a
slightly larger body that was played with the fingers and had three single strings (that is not double courses of the stings). It gives a very
distinct sound. I had a close look at it and indeed played it for a soundcheck for Mustafa and it certainly feels different from playing double
coursed saz. This sort of instrument may also be what is known as "dede saz". The whole nomenclature thing around sazes can get very murky (look into
what a çöğür is for example). I suspect you are right in the name referring to Hz. Ali. It could also be a reference to a "dervish" saz as the
the Hayderi were a dervish group. But Divani uses the instrument I have described in the cem ritual (I have seen this first hand both in Turkey and
when he came to Australia) and that would be in keeping with the naming of the instrument in reference to Hz. Ali. Not sure if this is any help; and I
am not 100% sure I am right, but this would be my understanding of what the haydari bağlama would be.
Regards, Paul
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Peyman
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Paul,
Thank you for the great info again. I read about Haydari on one of the Albayrak albums as well. Ulas Ozdemir also plays one. My own speculation is
that the instrument is probably similar to the tanboor used in the jamkhaneh's in Iran. I am guessing that it might actually lack the quarter notes. I
have heard about these types of saz's. As you said there is a lot of variety in the saz family.
I myself learnt some shelpe using a baglama cura (60 cm string length). I have 4 strings on it with the first course being doubled and no wound bass
strings. This set up makes it easier to play. I noticed that some shelpe players use a similar set up sometimes with 5 strings. I can't do much neck
tapping but I am not that interested in it  . Wnat gauge strings do you use on
your "RE" baglama if you don't mind me asking?
Regards,
PB
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pirsultan
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Peyman, actually I was wrong in my assumption of what the haydari bağlama is. I managed to make contact with Mustafa Kılçık to ask him
and I am a little confused by his response and have asked for clarification so I'm waiting to get back to me. I'm in Australia and he is in Turkey, so
there is a time lag. What he seemed to say is that the stringing has octave stringing on all courses - plain string (çelik) and a wound string (bam).
He did supply gauges for this and I can pass them on to you. I'll see if I can find the gauge I use on my re bağlama. I don't have a micrometre
but I use standard sets for short necked bağlamas. When I am a bit clearer about the haydari saz I'll let you know. But Mustafa made it clear it
is not the same as the dede saz as I had originally thought.
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Haluk
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I am maker of saz since 1965.
There are different names as baglama, tambura, divan, meydan,cura,cura baglama etc. but I didn't heard "Haydari" baglama.
I know that there is a folk song by Ali Ekber Cicek named "Haydar Haydar".
Regards.
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pirsultan
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Haluk, I think the "haydari bağlama" is perhaps a new style instrument or "old instrument made new again" by Hüseyin Albayrak (like Erkan
Oğur revived the kopuz). I asked Mustafa Kılçık for a description and he gave me this information about the stringing
"haydari baglama, biraz degişik
dede sazı gibi degil
yani alt teller orta tel gibi
40 tekneli bir baglamada düşünürsen
re mi fa fa # öalman için
alt tel no 0,28 çelik tel ve bir 052 numara bam 0,46 da olabilir
orta tel 0,18 ince çelik ve 75 numara bam bam
üst tel 0,18 ince ve 0,56 bam
alt teller normal pes akort
orta ve üst teller ise çelik teller bir oktav tiz
bam teller tam tersine normal pes"
Paul
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Peyman
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Thank you all for the information. I for one thing sure learned a lot!
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Klaus
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There is a selpe course with Erdal erzincan at Crete Island from 1-6 Sept for the ones who are interested. I was there last year and he is a very nice
and patient teacher. He used a normal short neck baglama tuned in La (B) sol (A) re (E).
The homepage is down at the moment (they are probably updating), but I have the following link in my bookmarks:
http://193.92.9.19/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1&...
else try
http://www.labyrinthmusic.gr
Best
Klaus
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