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Sherko Dakouri
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The Decline of Interest in Classical Musical Traditions... What Can We Do About it?
It’s certainly not an ignorable fact that all classical musical traditions in the world are now under a serious threat. Just examine the case of
Arabic classical music: Who nowadays listens to traditional pieces of semai, bashraf, tahmilah, maqam al-Iraqi, nubah or Muwashshahat? Very few.
Indeed, dozens of classical musical traditions around the world that go back thousands of years in history are being threatened by imitators of
American pop music. I’m not at all against American or Western pop music – although I like their classical music more – but I am against losing
our own culture and identity, which will, by the way, be a loss for the whole world, not for us alone.
I’m not totally against globalisation either, as it has many positive effects, but it also facilitates the problem that I’m now talking about. If
musicians from every tradition in the world give up their identity and start to imitate American pop music, we will end up with distorted copies of
that music and lose the rich and beautiful variety of musical traditions that has somehow survived so far. All the musics of the world will become
similar and we will end up with a very boring world.
The psychological aspect that makes young people listen to pop music more than anything else has been researched by many, but this is not my forte.
Also, much has been written on the major decline in interest that Western classical music faces, but I haven’t really read any really plausible
explanation yet.
As we all know, much of oud music belongs to the classical traditions of Arabic and Ottoman music. Are these traditions (and many others) really
approaching death? Is it real that they only belong to the past and have no function anymore and that they don’t fit into our own time? Can we begin
with something new without them? Why is the majority of young people around the world listening to superficial kinds of music that lack any real
substance and message? And if we don’t want to lose these traditions, what can be done about this?
These are some issues that I think we should ponder carefully and debate between us.
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charlie oud
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Hey Sherko, 1) Life goes on, life moves on and just because something is traditional that does'nt make it good, i.e. hanging, stoning, torture to name
a few. 2) It is not up to you, me or anyone else what others choose to listen to young or old. 3) The history of music is characterised by outstanding
individuals and groups, free spirits who had the courage to challenge the boundaries of tradition. 4)You ask, "Why are the majority of young people
around the world listening to superficial kinds of music that lack any real substance and message?". Well, it may be superficial to "you", and maybe
"you" feel it has no real substance or message, you are entitled to your opinion. 5) Traditions in music dont die, they adapt, adjust and evolve. They
change. 6) You may have personal reasons, but please dont blame America, she has culture galore, we would'nt have jazz or blues without her. There are
some fine oud players there too.  Beware of strict traditionalists, "Keep a
clean nose, Watch the plain clothes, You dont need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows" (Bob Dylan) regards, C 
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Sherko Dakouri
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Hi charlie oud
Thanks for your reply. 1) Life really goes on, but it doesn't have to go to the wrong direction. It seems that you're mixing between the good and bad
things that we have einherited from our ancsestors. It's really a terrible fallacy to compare classical musical traditions to stoning and torture. If
you don't understand classical music and can't appreciate it, you're not even entitled to talk about this topic. 2) It's true that no one can force
people to listen to a specific music, but it's everyone's right to try to direct them!! 3) The great free spirits in history indeed challenged
tradition, but were first immersed in it and knew it well. They created something new from within the tradition and didn't lose their identity, just
as tenburi Cemil Bey and Munir Bahir to name a very few. Most present day musicians that I criticise (and I'm specifically talking about the Middle
East) are musically illiterate. What can they really acheive except superficiality? 4) The problem of substance and meaning is indeed very complex,
but just look at how long a classical work can give joy, and how short it takes some pop songs to totally become obsecure. All musical junk will be
filtered through time. 5) This is strange. I'm not at all against the change in traditions. On the contrary, I love it and encourage it, but real
change happens from within, not by imitating others. Imitation is the opposit of creativity. And then, who can say that Tarkan or Hayfa Wahbi only
"changed" and didn't distort their traditions? 6) I'm not against America, and I like some aspects of its culture, but I hate to see American music
sweeping every musical tradition in the world. However, you should read the works of the many American intellectuals (like N. Chomsky) who criticise
their own consumerist culture.
Note that I don't say that all popular music lacks substance and is superficial. And also note that this is not really the purpose of my post. Rather,
I'm talking about the enormous and dangerous influence that American pop music excerts on other musical traditions. The problem with your reply is
that you seem to ignore my main point: Variety is beautiful, and uniformity is boring. The dominance of American music threatens to cause uniformity
to the music in our world, which is why it shoul be resisted. Regards.
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charlie oud
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I can think of much to say but prefer not too, I hope others may forward replies which you find more agreeable. C
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Cooper
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It is kind of like how I feel about folk music and folk dance too.
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DaveH
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Hi again Sherko. Wow, you get down to business fast, don't you? I've put a few of my own disjointed reflections below, but far better to have a look
at these two threads, started by Joseph (Joseph, though I didn't contribute then, I really enjoyed following those threads - please post more
thoughtful stuff) here
http://www.arabicouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7057#pid4...
and here
http://www.arabicouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7057#pid4...
This may sound a bit trite, but I do think that pretty much every kind of music has a very few outstanding masters and a lot of dross. To put it
another way, it's impossible for everyone to be a Bashir or a Bach or a Coltrane, but if you didn't have any of them, the form would just die out.
This goes for classical/art music of any genre and also popular music. For example, contrary to what you say, it seems to me that Western classical
music is doing perhaps better than it's ever done at the moment. There's a fair amount of knowledge of the most popular composers/pieces in the
general public; there are some popular classical "superstars" making it big by combining reasonable (though rarely outstanding) playing with
commercial packaging ("attitude", big promotional budgets, low-cut dresses etc etc); and there are even quite a few contemporary composers churning
out music which is easy to listen to (though IMHO fairly derivative). And every now and then I actually find a recording that I consider worth buying.
But there's a lot of mystique in Western classical music that makes people think anything from the 19th Century is great art when it isn't. For
example I listened to Mendelson performed in a concert the other day and it struck me how totally vacuous this music was. In Western classical music,
just like any other genre, there is a lot of stuff people say you should listen to that is actually going to mean very little to you.
I think that's mainly because, at any given point in time then, you're going to find very little recent stuff that's any good, and a whole lot of back
catalogue, because there's a lot longer period to choose from and because the dross has been sifted out by all those years.
But the "also rans" are pretty necessary too
So on the face of it might not be as bad as it looks. Or is it? I do think Charlie may be ignoring the fact that there are billions of dollars backing
a production process which is geared towards churning out very derivative, marketed popular music. In fact, this derivativeness is quite deliberate.
You're not going to put ten million into producing a record that you don't know the kids will like. Far better to base your track (and actually your
artist, while you're at it) entirely on the last one that did well. That's how you get Rihannas and Haifas. This music is marketed as part of a
lifestyle - a self-image if you like - it goes with the clothes and the trainers and the mobile, so the demand is created almost out of thin air -
people ARE manipulated. Particularly young people.
Modern technology is touted as a challenge to this state of affairs. But even in the days of the internet and laptop production suites, it's still
probably nearly impossible for original, independent artists to make it big, because at the end of the day you need the marketing machine and that's
what costs the money.
BUT, overall I'm an optimist (like Mavrothis in the thread I linked above), because we're not talking about making it big. It is possible to make
original, creative music if you're an artist, and to find it if you're a listener. And people do sniff out quality in the end. Overall, I really don't
know if original artists are less free to pursue creativity than they were when dukes or sultans patronised a very few of them. But the music is
there, and it's not going away, so lets make it for ourselves to the best of our abilities (limited in my case), seek it out with the internet and
exchange real creativity.
As I said, disjointed reflections...
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DaveH
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Sorry, the first thread I linked to (and probably the best) should have been this one:
http://www.arabicouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=5937#pid3...
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Sherko Dakouri
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Hello DaveH!
Thank you for your reply. I read what Joseph wrote. As he said, comparing literature to music is indeed wrong, because in the case of language, it's
only the "form" that changes. The language remains Arabic (or Turkish or Kurdish etc..) What's happening in Middle Eastern (and generally in all
non-Western) musics is very different. The musicians that I criticise have given up their own musical language alltogether.. I'm sure you know such
Middle Eastern musicians and the enormous popularity that they enjoy.
Anyhow, I'm don't belong to the "let's-return-to-the-roots" camp, I'm more of a compromist. I will happily accept some Western (preferably classical)
influences, on the condition that they affect the identity of our music only a slightly. Read Henry George Farmer to know how much the West took from
the Islamic civilisation in fields including music. Most Western instruments have Middle Eastern origins. In this respect, I'm not against adopting
the cello or bass for instance. Some harmony at a few places can be beautiful, and counterpoint can be used even more.. Making the existant forms
"bigger" like those in Western classical music won't hurt either.
I don't know if Western classical music is a tiny bit better than before now, but what I know for sure is that it's in a miserable situation. I read
in a statistic that some 90 % of sold CDs were of popular music. Thanks again!
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Sherko Dakouri
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Hello again DaveH!
The last post by Joseph was really better. However, I have to make some points clear. Music that's considered heritage cannot be "improved". No one
has the right to perform it in manners or with instruments that don't belong to its composer's era (with a very few exceptions). On the other hand, I
think it's absolutly true that every new Middle Eastern musician should take tradition as a starting point, and also so develop it as much as he/she
can. An example of this can be "Sama'i Kurd" by Simon Shaheen. In one of its "khanat," he changes the maqam 6 times. I undoubtedly consider this a
progress.
And again, it's because of the material considerations that are taken into account when making music that I ask what we can do. Best regards
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Brian Prunka
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It's interesting how often these discussions crop up with non-popular music.
My 1¢ (the exchange rate is terrible for the US right now):
Sherko, while I agree that a traditional music cannot be "improved" in any meaningful sense, any musician has a "right" to perform any music with
with any instruments in any manner he or she sees fit, and everyone else is free enjoy/condemn it as much as they see fit. So Hossam Ramzy can play
Farid tunes with a synthesizer and make the percussion louder than the whole band, and I can say that I think it sucks.
Regarding your main points, I don't think Arabic or Ottoman music is in particular danger.
Most older forms of music fall broadly into two categories, functional music and art music. Functional music is music for some utilitarian purpose,
accompanying some significant event, such as the call to prayer. Art music is music for its own sake, to be listened to attentively as an event in
itself.
So-called "classical" traditions are generally art music, though some folk music also falls into that category. And some classical music is intended
for some more utilitarian purpose (Bach chorales, say). So the lines can blur, especially over time (when the original purpose no longer exists, and
the music only remains, then it is either appreciated as art or it will die out).
The main problem, as I see it, is in thinking that what children enjoy should dictate our musical culture. this is the center of the art music vs.
popular music debate. You reference this yourself in your comments about what "young people" are doing. The music industry has always been focused
on selling music to kids, while art musical culture has been about adult tastes. Art music has never been big business. For the most part, all
classical music forms are the result of the attention of a relatively small number of wealthy aristocrats. All the attention that goes to pop music?
If pop music ceased to exist, that attention wouldn't suddenly go to art music, it would go to TV/video games/etc. It's essentially taking the place
of a variety of folk and functional music forms (it's mostly dance music, which accompanies a form of mating ritual essentially). The musicians that
are going to pursue serious music will still do so, it's not like they're getting sucked into making bad music.
Art music required educated listeners capable of focusing their attention for significant stretches of time. Listeners must have educated ears that
are sensitive to musical subtlety, and also an awareness of the range and depth of the musical tradition to which they are listening.
Popular music, in contrast, aims to provide simple satisfaction without requiring reference to a larger context (I'm not say this is necessarily a bad
thing, or that pop music hasn't often risen above that, just that it must function at least in that way or it won't be popular). Cynical pop music
exploits the lack of a larger context by simply reiterating clichés, in the assumption that the target audience is too young/naive/ignorant to
realize how superficial and vapid the music sounds to anyone who's listened to a bigger range of music. Again, there's a lot of great pop music out
there, made by artists who are able to satisfy its demands while maintaining originality, creativity and depth (an immense accomplishment in my
opinion--it's much more difficult to make sophisticated music for an unsophisticated audience than for a sophisticated audience, since the music has
to work on multiple levels).
While i'm not going to downplay the problems of shorter attention spans, etc. I think the best thing art music has going for it is that everyone gets
older, and they tend to look for deeper music when they do. Not everyone, of course (not everyone really cares about music), but enough people. Not
to mention that the more the East imports Western pop culture, the more there will be a reaction to it, encouraging people to embrace the old forms
and keep them alive.
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eliot
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Sherko Dakouri
I don't know if Western classical music is a tiny bit better than before now, but what I know for sure is that it's in a miserable situation. I read
in a statistic that some 90 % of sold CDs were of popular music. Thanks again! |
Classical music has never enjoyed a situation where it was financially self-sufficient. It has always required considerable amounts of patronage in
order to operate. This is true in both Europe and throughout the former Ottoman Empire, currently and historically. With the demise of aristrocratic
and court patronage systems, classical music had to "fend for itself" in a free market. Universities became the outpost - and a new form of patronage
- for classical (or, perhaps, "unpopular" music), but even that has weakened as universities are operating more as businesses and expect to see a ROI
(return on investment, financial) on funding put into arts.
| Quote: | | Originally posted by BrianThe music industry has always been focused on selling music to kids, while art musical culture has been about adult
tastes. Art music has never been big business. For the most part, all classical music forms are the result of the attention of a relatively small
number of wealthy aristocrats. All the attention that goes to pop music? If pop music ceased to exist, that attention wouldn't suddenly go to art
music, it would go to TV/video games/etc. |
Close, but you give too much credit to the music industry. They have been in the business of selling advertising (radio, tv ads) since the 1920s. The
rest is a big spectacle that they hope doesn't generate more losses than advertising revenues bring in.
The future of Arabic, Turkish, Kurdish, Yezidi, Laz, Armenian, Iranian, ... classical music depends on wealthy patrons. Each member of this forum
should actively pursue some multi-millionaire and make it their quest for 2008-9 to coerce them into donating a sizable sum of money to the
preservation of such art. I'm not joking, at all. These musics never have and never will thrive in the free market.
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Sherko Dakouri
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Hello Brian!
Thanks for your reply. First of all, I didn't say that musicians "can't" play traditional music the way they want, they "can", no one is going to put
them in prison for this. But I meant that they shouldn't. Can you imagine playing Beethoven's fifth symphony (or any other Western classical work for
that matter) with a synthesiser and getting a good result?
Secondly, I don't like the term "art music," it's as though other forms are silly or "not art."
Thirdly, what I mean by "danger" is not that these musical traditions become totally obsolete (that will be a disaster!), rather, it's them becoming
some sort of an elitist music that a very narrow circle (mostly musicians) understands and enjoys. That's somehow the case of modern and contemporary
Western classical music. Do you know anyone who listens to Boulez or mere enjoyment? Maybe there is a few, but that's simply not enough for me. Some
blame the music itself, which is overly intellectual and "ugly," but that's another problem.
I do agree with you in some points, but think that to say that people should wait until they get old in order to understand classical music is totally
misleading. If this is going to be the case, this music will ultimately die, and very quickly. The reason is that this will make these traditions into
a sort of "elderly music," which will discourage young people from learning and playing it, which will in turn cause its death. And then why depriving
youngsters from this beautiful and rewarding music? Shouldn't we guide them toward appreciating it? Furthurmore, I don't see the forms I mentioned
above (Pesrev, semai, fasil, tahmilah, maqam al-Iraqi) popular even among older people..
I don't say that I want 100% of the population to listen to classical music, 50% is actually enough for me, and I beleive that people who are mentally
and emotionally prepared for listening to it really make up to this percentage. But I suspect the percentage of people who listen to classical music
(in the Middle East) even to be 10 %.
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Christian1095
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Most pop music sucks... sure... I'll buy into that... I think there are two types of modern American Pop music (1) music with a message and (2)
music that is attempting to sell an image. The vast majority of Pop music (at least in America) is about selling an image and not about sending a
message. I think innovation happens when a few really good musicians stand out or do something new (Elvis, the Beatles, Om Kalthoum) But for
everyone that stands out, there are countless others that are mediocre imitations at best. (and usually suck)
America is destroying world music... that's a bit of a stretch... American foreign and domestic policy has made more situations go from bad to worse
that we have room to list here... and we probably have a big hand in global warming... But I don't think you can lay the blame for the eradication
of world music on her doorstep. They say, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink"
Classical music isn't that appealing to most Americans either.... As Brian pointed out... everyone gets older and as they expand their minds, they
expand their tastes... I got into this music because I really like the tone of the instrument. Part of achieving a level of competence involves
learning the form... but that should not be confused with the ultimate goal of music to express those things that words just can't.... I didn't get
into the Oud so I could learn Maqam Rast, quarter tones, or the samaii rhythm... That's just the structure... I got into this instrument because it
has a beautiful tone that pulls at my heart. Now as I learn more about the instrument and the music, I'm really getting into these things... but at
night, I don't wish I could play exactly like Farido... I practice so that I can better express myself within this art form. I want to play like
me... The beauty of musical expression is to convey YOUR emotions, not that of a dead composer. Perhaps I might find a Hamza el-Din song that really
speaks to me, and through intonation and phrasing I make it mine.... and in that manner I express myself through the form... but to only seek to play
the piece EXACTLY as it appears is to kill its soul... at least in my opinion.
Out of curiosity, exactly who is depriving youngsters of classical music? TV and Radio doesn't play a lot classical because it doesn't sell... I
think the question we should ask is this: Is there a way to make the music more appealing to them? For example, the Leonardo di Caprio version of
Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet was extremely popular and presented the story's themes in a way that was understandable to the masses. So I would say
that if you can get kids engaged by playing Beethoven's fifth symphony using trashcans and an Oud...then go for it. Ultimately, I would be happy if
more kids had exposure to all different forms of music. Not just classical, but Jazz and the blues, Reggae and Heavy Metal and Gospel, Lebanese folk
tunes, Japanese classical pieces, etc... And if they want to make a Japanese version of a Nassam 3alyna el hawa, then go for it.... beats having them
play video games....
Music has to adapt to survive.. You can't put a camel in the ocean and expect it to grow flippers. And when it fails to grow those flippers, you
can't blame the ocean... And you also can't blame the camel if they're not "mentally or emotionally prepared for it"
Regards
Chris Walters
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SamirCanada
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My comments will be short...
I am rather young all things considered at 24 years old... I loved classical arabic music since the age of 17 where I used to listen to arabic pop
mainly before that. Am I the exception to the rule?
I took the time to appreciate classical music because I thought It was important to understand what my grand father was talking about when he spoke of
Oum Koulthoum and her music.
Without this forum I would know absolutely nothing about classical forms of music such as semaii's, longa, bashraf etc.... no body actualy knows what
I am talking about when I mention these terms in my community. I know they appreciate the sounds of the instruments and the like the pieces I play for
them but don't ask my parents or anyone else who I play for to tell me this was longa farahfaza composed by Al Sumbati. They are not educated in music
and there is no reason why they would be knowledgeable since all the do is listen and enjoy. No need for them to know the theory.
Also I graduated university in International Commerce. Which is fine but really I should have been an engineer if you ask my father. If I would have
chosen to study music as my true passion it was.... It would have been hell on my parents and I would have been pretty much a shame on my family.
I am saying hell about my parents but really I know for a fact that they love me playing the oud and they are so proud. Fact of the matter is its fine
as a hobby but its terrible for a living.
That is the case for 99% of Arab families if not 100%.
how do you expect for musical traditions to be kept alive when the learning of them is discouraged at the source.?
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Christian1095
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Samir, you're not alone... I know a lot of US musicians who have to work day jobs to feed thier hobby... In that respect, unless you're studying
music at University... there just isn't a lot of ways to make a living playing... Those who do are very lucky... and few and far between...
Chris Walters
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Brian Prunka
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Hey Samir,
That fact that the music industry primarily makes pop music to appeal to kids of course doesn't mean there aren't exceptions. But most of those
exceptions are people who are going to take some more significant interest in music, either playing (even as a hobby) or some other way (writing,
perhaps). 24 isn't that young, anyway, by the standards of the record companies. 12-21 is probably the biggest market, especially for pop music.
Christian, i disagree about the image/message dichotomy. What is Tom Waits doing? He certainly has an image, and I guess he has a message too, if the
message is "hey, people sure are interesting." But it seems to me that he's about writing great songs and performing them in interesting ways with
terrific musicians. The Beatles? no message, really, and definitely image-conscious, but ultimately about writing songs. If there's a dichotomy,
it's between people who are in the music business because they want to make music and people who make music because they want to be in the music
business.
Sherko, just to clarify, you said :
| Quote: |
No one has the right to perform it in manners or with instruments that don't belong to its composer's era
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I'm saying everyone does have that right. Incidentally, have you ever heard the soundtrack to "A Clockwork Orange"? Very interesting performance of
western classical music using synthesizers. Is it an improvement? not as a self-sufficient work (in my opinion), but in the context of the film,
arguably yes.
I used the term art music specifically because it points to a fundamental distinction regarding the purpose of the music. Whether you like it or not,
some music has a function independent of its musical content, while other music has function only in relation to its content. That doesn't mean its
better or more beautiful or meaningful or whatever. A lot of people would argue the opposite--that art music is actually inferior to functional
music, since it doesn't serve a "useful" purpose and is less obviously integral to a culture. Certainly the music of a Gnawa ceremony is a good
example of the power and beauty of functional music? or a Bach chorale? I'm open to other terms, but it's sort of beside the point, the difference
exists whatever we call it. Comparing pop music, which serves a practical purpose, to classical music, which does not, is not going to get you very
far. No one is going to dance to a Samai and pick up girls listening to a Bashraf, no matter how much you educate people.
Classical music has always been elitist and for a narrow circle of aficionados, and that's okay. The aficionados are the ones who have preserved it
thus far and I think they're probably going to continue. I'm sure some people criticized Abdel Wahab and Oum Kalthoum when they were new for not
being "classical", yet most people today regard their contributions as progress.
Eliot, I'm interested in your assertion that the music business exists to sell advertising. Can you explain yourself? Obviously the radio industry
exists to sell advertising, as does the music press. But they sell a lot of advertising TO the record companies (although the radio stations don't
call it advertising). The record companies didn't really exist in modern form until Frank Sinatra showed them that you could make a significant amount
of money selling records, and they didn't really take off until Elvis showed you could make a LOT of money selling records. And who are we selling
most of those records to? Kids.
Touring has always been more lucrative than record sales for most artists (except those who wrote a lot of hit songs, because they got the publishing
$, which is why the Beatles didn't bother to tour after their first few LPs).
But the record companies made a lot of money from record sales (and from the aforementioned hit songs, of which they usually controlled 50% of the
publishing). I don't see how the record companies make any significant amount of money from advertising. Radio and television both exist to sell
advertising, sure, but that is irrespective of their content--talk radio exists to sell advertising, too. The music business and the advertising
business certainly have a symbiotic relationship, but they don't exist because of one another, as far as I can tell.
okay, enough rambling for now.
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Sherko Dakouri
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Dear Brian Prunka
I simply don't think that classical music has always been for the elite. Just read about Vienna in Mahler's days or before that, or any of the larger
European cities at those times, and you'll know how "popular" it was.
About the right to play classical music with modern instruments, I repeat that the results will always be less than sufficient.
Dear Christian1095
You're right when you say that "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
It's simply true. No one has forced us to be overwhelmed by the influence of American pop music. And this is why I'm asking the question of what we
can do. If it were all the Americans' fault, we couldn't have done anything.
I don't say that we shoul play a composition "exactly" as its composer did (if he has made any recordings of it,) but I do say that we shouldn't play
that compositions in norms that are totally alien to what the composer had in his mind.. That would just not be what he wanted..
I disagree with you about playing a Beethoven symphony with an oud.. This will again simplify matters and deprive those youngsters from the real
beauty of that art. Instead of simplifying things, let us tech kids to taste music that is higher in meaning and soul.
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gregorypause
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Very interesting discussion.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Sherko Dakouri
I do agree with you in some points, but think that to say that people should wait until they get old in order to understand classical music is totally
misleading. |
Sherko, I agree that young people should be encouraged to listen to classical music (and other traditional forms of music). Here in Hungary they teach
folk songs as compulsory material at schools. However, as a 13-14 year old you cannot comprehend some of the emotional depth in classical music just
like I could not comprehend most of poetry I had to learn. You have to grow up emotionally and experience life to understand poetry/music or any other
form of music.
So, we should encourage it, but i think our efforts will only bear fruit on the long run.
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gregorypause
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Christian1095
I got into this instrument because it has a beautiful tone that pulls at my heart. Now as I learn more about the instrument and the music, I'm really
getting into these things... but at night, I don't wish I could play exactly like Farido... I practice so that I can better express myself within
this art form. I want to play like me... The beauty of musical expression is to convey YOUR emotions, not that of a dead composer. Perhaps I might
find a Hamza el-Din song that really speaks to me, and through intonation and phrasing I make it mine.... and in that manner I express myself through
the form... but to only seek to play the piece EXACTLY as it appears is to kill its soul... at least in my opinion.
Regards |
Man, I am there with you all the way. I have no Arabic background, yet when I hear the oud, my heart just vibrates with the strings. That's what
matters: the emotion - that it expresses something you feel. Not to say that the piece of music has to be original, it could have been composed by
someone else.
.. and yes Hamza El Din's Helalisa (Nubian Sons) is one those songs
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charlie oud
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Hi Sherko, (upon reflection) I would like to appologise if my earlier reply is a little abrupt or cheeky. I'm glad others have responded in more
concise ways which reflect the level of interest and concern around the issues you have raised. In all honesty I have become war weary with this
subject, I've been in this movie a thousand times, as a musician for the past 35 years and as a former teacher of music at college. As a result, for
me, music is another universe, I go there every time I play, feel its beauty, express myself as best I can and return, always looking forward to my
next visit. Debates of this nature no longer hold my attention but I sincerely wish you well in your quest. C.
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Christian1095
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Sherko,
I think where we differ is in the steps one should take to get kids into music... but ultimately I think our views on the desired outcome are pretty
close.... where we differ is in method.... I think the more you try to push classical music on them, the more they are likely to resist. But I
think if you make it accessible to them, they will discover it on thier own... For me, I really started exporing music when I was 14 and my father
got me a bass guitar.... Of course, I played a lot of Iron Maiden, Led Zeppelin and Ozzy, but then I later got into reggae... I would also try to
figure out the meoldies to Mozart and TV theme songs too..... I totally rocked to the theme of "Night Court" (which got me listening to Jazz and so
on...)
So when I heard an Oud I said to myself -- hey this has strings... I bet I could learn it too since notes are notes (of course at the time I didn't
know anything about the Maqam system... and for the most part, I'm still so completely ignorant about the structure of this music that it's a little
disheartening at times...) but because I was taught that learning music is cool and was allowed to find it for myself it's still a part of my life now
at 34.
So the point I'm getting at is that the road to appreciating music isn't always a straight line... and kids should be allowed to wander and find thier
own way... I have to believe that music enriches our spiritual lives in some way... and that by playing music, we have the opportunity to express
ourselves in ways that other people can't... which I think is pretty cool...
The important thing is to get them playing an instrument... Kids will first find the music they are connected to... It might be Hip-Hop and Brittany
Spears (ugh..) But once they discover that music has a soul of it's own, they'll go out and discover the classics.... But I think there is a danger
anytime you discourage thier creative process.... If they want to play Bach on harmonica, let them and encourage them... because it will eventually
lead them to an appreciation of the original.
Chris Walters
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DaveH
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Sherko, I don't think it matters where the influences come from - whether it's western classical or anything else. What matters is how they're
incorporated. If I hear another rendition of another mozart symphony for oud and orchestra, I think I may well break something. Flamenco oud is
another big no-no for me. And (though I may be putting my head on the block here with our Lebanese friends) I really don't find much of interest in
Marcel Khalife's attempts to fit arabic music into the Western Classical mould, because I don't see any original music involved - just some OK
melodies, clumsy orchestration and tweaking of the nationalist heartstrings. Even Munir Bashir (though he is my all time idol) got a bit derivative
sometimes with his flamenco excursions or new-age style overly dwelling on simple melodies. But say Anouar Brahem manages sometimes to incorporate a
wide variety of influences with his own style and the result is really moving music. All this of course is IM-very-H-O.
Speaking of the influence of Western classical music on Arabic music, I'm just hazarding here, but could it be possible that this is where the rot
started? For example, stave notation is very useful for us foreigners in learning a music in an unfamiliar tradition, but it completely changes the
system of transmission and performance. Another strong influence of Western classical music has been the standardisation - of Maqams, of learning (viz
the academies set up around the arab world in the early 20thC) and of microtones - did it all start to go wrong with the Cairo conference in 1932? Why
did arabic musicians (or more probably arabic academics and Western ethnomusicologists) feel the need to standardise and notate? This is not an area I
know much about, but couldn't you argue that there was some sort of undervaluing of the oral tradition, that it was seen as inferior to the
standardised, notated Western tradition, and that, as a result of this "inferiority complex", arabic music got sucked into the orbit of Western values
and down the long road that leads to Haifa Wehbe (but also for example to some very original rai music). I know this is an easily made and shallow
argument in some ways - I'm sure it's been made by many a cultural theorist (by the way, for better or worse, it's the 30th anniversary of the
publication of Edward Said's Orientalism) - and I'm not saying that any kind of hybridisation is bad. But I do think it's a bit simple to say that
Western classical music is some kind of lofty art form that could do not wrong in influencing other traditions, whereas commercial pop is the source
of all evil.
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
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Hi Sherko
I guess that this fear from the western music is totally unjustified in my point of vue.
When sayyid darwish did "tol3it ya ma7la nuurha shams el shammuseh" he was definitevely influenced by western music. Look to that song, now it's a
folklore.
When Abdel wahaad and Farid el atrashe introduced the valse, the latino music into their work (think about albi w mofta7o, or gafnuhu 3allama el
ghazal) journalists and critics were not happy about these changes. Also when abdel wahaab introduce the electric guitar into his music (with omar
khorchid) people where chocked initially.
The bottom line is musicians such sayed darwish, abdel wahab, farid el atrash (just to name few) tried to make something new and I guess they succed.
If they had the fear that you're talking about we wouldn't have such great music from these musicians.
I'll leave you with these 2 videos, one for ziad rahbani and the other for Trio taksim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyQKflHXxLs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iubuP8kq3s&feature=related
look at the influence of the western music in these 2 videos. You may like it or not but there is something new, unusual.
Music evolves, Music is the language of the universe, you cannot hide it or keep it away from anyone. Every one has the right to try and only the
future will tell us if these tries are justified.
Best
Souheil
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carpenter
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So - and I may be missing some salient point - does this mean Simon Shaheen should drop the fiddle because he isn't playing European Art
Music? Somebody please explain the gist, here, and soon; I must've got lost in the weeds.
(As the initial thought may have ...)
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
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No carpenter, you missed the point. However, have you heard Blue Fame CD for simon? if not take a look
http://www.amazon.com/Fantasie-for-Oud-String-Quartet/dp/B0013CPH9I...
No classical takasim in the CD ! he was trying to bring something new in that CD.
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