| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
For comparison, the attached image shows the equivalent geometrical construction for the Arnault de Zwolle lute. The many similarities are obvious. At
variance with the oud engraving (and our proposed construction) the Arnault lute has a single large soundhole, a large end block, and three braces.
Arnault makes it clear that the neck of his lute is long (of undefined length but much longer than the neck of any surviving European lute of the
16/17th C or that shown in the oud engraving) - so long in fact that Arnault explains that he could not correctly represent it full size on the page
in the space available!
On the Arnault lute braces are placed at the top edge of the sound hole (equivalent to brace gh on the oud), at the maximum width of the sound board
(equivalent to the centre line of the small sound holes on the oud) and at the location of brace cd on the oud.
Scales A and B represent the division of the sound board into
8 parts in accordance with the Mersenne instructions. Clearly the fit of scale A measured between the inside edges of the end and neck blocks
(representing the free vibrating length of the soundboard) is not the best match but scale B is pretty close. This could mean that - given the margin
of error in measurement - our oud either might have an Arnault sized end block - or that the Arnault lute had a thin end plate - the block shown being
only part of the lute mold and not incorporated in the bowl of the lute itself. Also, while it is possible that a brace might have been positioned
across the centres of the small sound holes, this would not conform to practice found in modern ouds where a brace located on each side of the small
sound holes.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
To complete this study, it would appear that the engraving is an accurate representation of the exterior profile of an oud of the late 13th/early 14th
C (?) but what about the frets? Assuming that these are also accurately represented and positioned (although they may not be) and calculating fret
positions as they would be on a lute ( Western equal temperament) we can see that the
neck/fingerboard is just long enough to accommodate seven frets based on the Westen European scale. Seven frets are also represented on the engraving
but they obviously do not match the lute fretting arrangement.
However, fret number 7 on the engraving corresponds to fret 5 on the lute fretting geometry. This fret position is 1/4 of the total vibrating string
length which may be significant.
Farmer in his "The Lute Scale of Avicenna" translates into English part of the text of the Kitab al-shifa of Ibn Sina (died in 1037) which deals
with fretting of the oud and the ratios of string length to fret positions, including" the oud is divided between the bridge (musht) and the nut (anf)
upon a quarter of the whole length and there is tied the lowest fret (i.e. the last fret) called the 4th finger fret (khinsir) fret".
So does the 7th fret in the engraving represent the khinsir fret? If so, how do the other fret positions match the scales given in the various Arabic
theoretical works? I am not in a position to comment with any authority on that question but there may be others who can?
|
|
|
ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Some links related to oud fretting theories:
a practice in the mathematics of tuning instruments and analyzing scales
http://www.chrysalis-foundation.org/Al-Farabi's_'Uds.htm
Arab Lute Frettings
http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/arablute/arablute.htm
Very "heavy" material !
I was able to understand (and I may be wrong) that the little finger fret (khinsir) is the 9th fret which is placed at 1/4 of the distance between the
meeting point of the strings and their other ends attached to the bridge.
[
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks for the links ALAMI. They look interesting and worth reading.
The whole field of surviving early Arabic and Persian theoretical works is well documented and, no doubt, thoroughly analysed by many researchers over
the years. Reading and comprehending the published works and translations of translations is indeed heavy going for those of us who are not otherwise
'immersed' in this specialised field of interest. Hopefully there may be some 'easy to follow' guides giving a general, less technical overview, for
the uninitiated. One readily available summary (although still pretty technical) can be found in chapter XIV, on the 'Arabic and Persian Musical
System' of the publication "On the Sensations of Tone" by Hermann Helmholz (with extensive additional notes by the translator Alexander J. Ellis).
This work is available in paperback edition from Dover Publications, New York.
Farmer quotes the instructions of Al-Masudi (died 957) who directs that the fret next to the nut be placed on the fingerboard a distance of 1/9th of
the string length from the nut and that the fret nearest the bridge be placed at 1/4 of the string length from the nut - which is the 4th finger fret
given by Ibn Sina.
Looking at the translation of the Kitab al-shifa it is explained that the first finger (sabbaba) fret is given by the distance 1/9 of the string
length from the nut - confirming the Al-masudi directions. Ibn Sina then goes on to give the position of the third finger fret from the first fret
which is 1/9 the distance from the first fret to bridge. Taking 1/8 of the distance from the fourth finger fret to the bridge gives the position of
"The Old Persian 2nd finger fret" (measured from the 4th fret towards the nut). He then goes on further to describe several intermediate fret
placements.
What is interesting is that when the above fret positions are laid out according to the proportions given on on the engraving of the oud they conform
pretty closely with the equal semitone fretting system used today in Western music. In other words the first finger fret coincides with fret 2 Western
shown in my previous posting, the Old Persian 2nd finger fret coincides with fret 3 Western, the third finger fret with fret 4 Western, and the 4th
finger fret with fret 5 Western.
As there may be several intermediate frets in the various Arabic/Persian systems (for example between the nut and first finger fret) it is quite
likely that the 4th finger fret could be designated as fret 9 in some cases. However, as I understand it (but I cannot find the appropriate reference
at the moment) oud players did not necessarily use or instal all of the frets dictated by the theorists - so in practice an oud might only be fitted
with (say) 7 frets, with the fourth finger fret being the the last or seventh fret?
This may mean that the fret positions shown in the oud engraving are not accurate as is the rest of the engraving geometry but simply confirm that
frets were fitted to the oud - their exact placement being given elsewhere in the original manuscript.?
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I should add the obvious comment that the oud is would likely have been played fretless beyond the last (4th finger) fret position. Lutes in Europe
were not generally fitted with frets above the last tied fret
(number 8) on the fingerboard yet were frequently played unfretted up to position 12 on the sound board by expert players. So both instruments might
be considered as only partly fretted.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Is the script in the image of the oud clear enough to be translated into English. I assume that the script written above the nut and bridge means
"nut" and "bridge" but what does the script over the strings mean? This might possibly help towards eventually identifying the original source
document?
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
My next project will be to construct an oud based upon this engraving as well as other historical evidence presented in this forum. As the oud is
fretted, I would be comfortable playing it as a lutenist and would also be able to experiment with the fret positions in order to play it as an early
oud (with help from my friends on the forum!).
My question is - should I construct the prototype with just two sound-holes - in accordance with the engraving - or with three sound-holes , as is the
modern norm? Are there any early manuscript illuminations, paintings or engravings that show ouds with only two small sound-holes - or is this
engraving just some historical anomaly?
|
|
|
spyrosc
Oud Junkie
Posts: 405
Registered: 9-18-2003
Location: Northern California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Grateful
|
|
Title
I wonder if the word that ALAMI indicated as ...?..Al Oud on the title above the picture maybe:
DAFR AL OUD perhaps meaning how the oud is tied (intertwined? meaning the strings?).
See also the sideways picture.
Also I wonder if the word above the "nut" is ANF perhaps meaning the "nose" or the "ridge" of the oud.
Spyros C.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks for your helpful comments and observations, spyrosc.
Unfortunately, I am not able to read and translate the text (is it Arabic or Persian?).
If the meaning refers to how the oud is tied (ambiguous), I would tend to take this to mean that it is the frets that are tied, not the strings? -
but, obviously, I can not know for sure.
I do know that "anf" translates as "nut" (according to Dr. Farmer and other Western scholars).
I still find it strange, however, that Farmer does not reference this engraving in his paper setting out to prove that early ouds were fretted - what
better proof would he need?! So he may not have come across the print in his research which referenced many primary source documents?
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Here is an image of a miniature representing an
oud (?) with a 'sickle' shaped pegbox. The diamond shaped flat plate at the terminal end of the pegbox seems to 'stick out at the back' which might
explain the peculiar pegbox 'finial' so quaintly represented in the print of the oud?
Does anyone know the source of the miniature and its date? Persian perhaps?
|
|
|
Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mahoor
|
|
It's actually Ottoman. Here is a picture of a kopuz (or "Rood") player in the same style:
|
|
|
ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Here is another miniature with a peculiar pegbox shape, what is also interesting is that the face has no central large hole, it looks like having 2
small holes on the sides and one near the neck, or may be this one is an inlay, I could only identify the words "dastan" and "Sfendiar". But like in
many miniatures, the painting could be more recent and not related to the manuscript (we can see a line of script covered by the drawing),
What do you think Peyman ?
|
|
|
Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mahoor
|
|
Nice find Alami. The illustration is Persian (the Shahnameh story of Esfandiar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esfandiar). It's a poem so there isn't any technical info on the oud. "Daastaan" means story and "dastaan" means
frets. That might be a little confusing.
|
|
|
theodoropoulos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 177
Registered: 12-21-2008
Location: Greece
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
excellent work
|
|
|
Anija
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 7-2-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hello John- I just came across your woodcut in Musikgeschichte in Bildern, Islam, Bd. III, Lieferung 2, ed. Henry George Farmer. It is not from page
81 of the book as suggested above- in fact it is example #81 on page 97.
Here is the text regarding the diagram:
"Die Abbildung der Laute (Abb. 81) wurde dem Kitab al-adwar des Safi al-Din 'Abd al-Mu'min (gest. 1294) nach einer Handschrift der Bodleian Library
Ox, datiert 1333-1334, entnommen. Dieses Instrument weist fu:nf Doppelsaiten auf, die in Quarten gestimmt sind. Die Absta:nde der sieben Bu:nde
(dasa|ti|n) ergeben eine Tonfolge con limma, limma, comma u:ber zwei Oktaven und einen Halbton hinweg." (p.96)
There is a fantastic depiction in this volume (p. 71) of an oud in an Egyptian miniature. I'll scan it up- the 'ud has an interestingly shaped
pegbox!
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks Anija - this then supports earlier information about the engraving appearing in an early 14th C. manuscript copy of Kitab al-Adwar. Is there
any reference in the text to the Bodleian Library shelf mark to confirm the identity of this copy?
(The German text also confirms that the oud (as described by Safi al-Din) has five double courses tuned a fourth apart fitted with seven frets
covering a range of two octaves and a semitone).
Any information in the iconography concerning early oud peg box shapes would be of interest.
|
|
|
Anija
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 7-2-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hello John- yes, sorry for not including a translation... my german is enough for comprehension, but I don't have the confidence to post up my english
version 
I will email you the scans, actually, since the text makes them quite extensive. Then you can post up whatever segments you would like to include in
the forum. Unfortunately I do not have a scanner at home! I will try to get these to you in the next couple of days.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Thanks Anija - Looking forward to reviewing the scans.
If there is no footnote in the text identifying the manuscript copy in the Bodleian then I shall contact the library direct for that information. At
least we now have a location for the manuscript version in question. It will be good to be able to positively confirm that the oud engraving does
indeed come from a copy of the Kitab al-Adwar.
My previous limited grasp of German is now almost forgotten but I work on the principle that there are many forum members fluent in both German and
English who will be kind enough to correct any gross flaws in my translation attempts.
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi everybody!
... just wait a moment, Chris will do it 
"The image of the lute (fig. 81) was taken from the Kitab al-adwar of Safi al-Din 'Abd al-Mu'min (died 1294) based on (or do they mean "regarding
to") a handwriting of the Bodleian Library Ox, dated 1333-1334. This instrument has five courses tuned in perfect fourths. The intervals of the
seven frets (dasa|ti|n) form a tone sequence from limma, limma, comma over two octaves and a half tone."
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Many thanks for your translation Chris - appreciate it.
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
No problem, J. ... and I appreciate your efforts regarding the history of the oud.
Nice to know now, that the courses were tuned E-A-d-g ... that supports the theory, that the oud is the "grandfather" of the guitar.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The early 14th C Safi al-Din manuscript copy - topic of this thread - refers to a 5 course instrument with all of the courses tuned a fourth apart.
What I have suggested is that the early Spanish four course guitar tuning (developed from the 16th C Spanish vihuela) may have originally been derived
from an alternative ("non-traditional") tuning proposed by Avicenna (Ibn Sina) in the 11th C in an effort to design a more perfect fretting system for
the 5 course oud. Here the courses are tuned (from the bass) a 4th, 4th, 3rd, 4th apart.
Of course, the actual pitch of the strings will depend upon the size (string length) of an instrument and the 'pitch standard' chosen.
For more information see my posting of 10-18-2009 in "Old Oud - New project" on the Oud Project forum.
|
|
|
Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Yep, I'll give it a second look ... I vaguely remember, that your findings were different.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
|
|
|
Anija
Oud Lover
Posts: 18
Registered: 7-2-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Chris... thanks for the translation!! note though, there is a typo, i'm sure you noticed... "von", not "con".
By the way, Farmer does sort of mention this woodcut in 'Was the Arabian and Persian Lute Fretted?'- very passingly, of course, and only in his
section on how strings must not have been in double courses. odd. Gotta love Farmer though.
I keep reading a mis-information/contradiction in so many sources on early ouds. i.e/ that Al-Farabi was the first to outline a system of fretting
for a five-course instrument. However, I was reading Al-Kindi's Muʾallafāt al-Kindī al-mūsīqīyah with a friend the
other night, which at the beginning clearly describes four-frets + five-courses.
Similarly, I remember reading George Sawa saying that Al-Farabi increased instrument's range to 2 octaves. However, Al-Kindi describes at GREAT
length (haha) the two octave range of his oud.
Am I confusing something here? It seems like Farabi's "4 + optional 6" fretting system would not be so different from the 1333 woodcut. How are the
two systems fundamentally different, if at all? Why are the 7 frets depicted equally spaced apart?
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I don't think that the fret spacing depicted on the oud engraving is intended to be accurate only representational - it is the number of frets that
would appear to be important - like the pegbox and the correctly depicted number of pegs.
Early lute players extended the range of their instruments well beyond the 8 tied fret limit on the fingerboard (up to fretless position 12 on the
sound board).
I imagine that early oud players did the same for their fretted instruments - leading eventually to total abandonment of frets on the oud for
performers (but not the theoreticians).
Farmer summarises the history of the musical scale in the Near and Middle East (which he describes as 'full of perplexities'!) - including the scale
of Al-Farabi - in his article "The Lute Scale of Avicenna". However, he does not go beyond Ibn Sina's improved fretting sytem leaving us all in
suspense by concluding that "it was not until the time of Safi al-Din .... that an absolutely perfect scale was evolved"!
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
