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journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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a beginner's oud
I would like to mention this as a suggestion to anyone interested in purchasing a new oud for the first time. If you would like to explore the
instrument without a large investment, I would suggest an oud from the Nile Shop. They have several models available, but I purchased the ash bodied
oud for $160 US and it turned out to be a well built instrument from a purley structural point of view. The tuning pegs were somewhat inferiorir, so I
took it to a violin repair person and he fitted it with good pegs for $100 Canadian. The instrument doesen't have the sound of a $1000 oud
obviously, but It is structurally sound and with the new tuning pegs and a nut adjustment it plays well. The repairman confirmed the soundness of the
construction and was amazed by the inexpensive price. One thing I did was remove the cheap strings, sand the laquer off the top and fingerboard and
put on a set of D'darrio strings. The result is an oud that is structurally stable, tunes up well and holds its tuning for a cost of about $230
US. The merchant's name at the Nile Shop is Yehia, and here is his e mail address:
1nileshop <sales@nileshop.net>
There are a number of ouds for sale on e bay, and they look great in the photos. I purchesed two of these ouds and found one to be VERY inferior, and
the ash Bodied oud from Yehia to be OK. I hope this is of some help to first time oud buyers.
Cordially,
Roy
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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Time will tell whether your oud is a bargain or not. These factory made cheap ouds are made from unseasoned woods with crude construction, poorly
fitted parts assembled with lots of poor quality and fungus infested hide glue. The result is an ornamental object that over time will split, crack
and separate as the wood dries out. The parts often detach as the glue deterioates and turns to powder. The worst effect is the dissapointing tone,
unreliable tuning and poor action and playablitiy that discourages the new player from continuing with his oud study.
A quality instrument made with seasoned or aged wood will improve continuously in tone, be reliable and predictable to tune and provide action that
eases the learning of technique and allows improvement and growth. Properly fitted and glued with quality adhesives, the instrument will last several
lifetimes with proper care.
Why is it that all of the old ouds are of high quality? Hmmmm?
Caveat Emptor!
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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Richard, while I'm sure you're right about the effects of time on cheap ouds, it seems somewhat beside the point. I think Roy was just
trying to suggest something for a beginner who couldn't afford a high-quality instrument or wasn't sure about his long-term dedication. The
implicit assumption seemed to be that as soon as the student was able, he would move up to a better instrument. It's nice of you to warn people,
but it almost sounds like you're suggesting that people who can't afford $1000+ instruments are better off not playing at all . . .
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
Member Is Offline
Mood: big band envy
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Hi Roy,
I played most of the ouds at the Nileshop's store in Cairo while I was there. My opinion is that they are great for a beginner too. I would say
in general stay away from the mass-produced Turkish ouds on ebay, but that generally the Nileshop Arabic ouds are great for starting and need little
to no repairs or tweeking for a beginner.
Take care,
mav
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Richard,
I'm sure that you are right in your estimation of these ouds, although what prompted me to post the above was that the violin/cello repairman
who fitted it with tuning pegs informed me that the joints were all good and the structural aspects of this particular oud were solid. Perhaps it will
come apart in a year or twobecause of the glue, but I thought for such a small investment in might be worth it for someone buying their first oud.
Also, I know that a lot of ouds in this price range are really bad, as I had another one that was terrible. This particular one, the ash bodied one
for $160 US seems to be reasonable. I agree that it is better to invest $1000-1500 in a good instrument, but if someone just doesn't have the
money or they are not sure about their level of interest, I thought this might be an alternative among the large number of factory made cheap ouds. It
was easy to remove the laquer from the top and fingerboard and to lower the nut with some sanding. In my case, I wanted an oud that I could carry
around on my bicycle and take to the river or wherever and not have to worry about. I must say that, "fungus infected glue" sounds pretty
bad though. Egads!
Cheers,
Roy
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Zulkarnain
Oud Junkie
Posts: 667
Registered: 1-14-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Journeyman!
What kind of bicycle you have? I have the road race type bike (like the one Lance Armstrong from US Postal use) 
....and anybody else have bicycle too??
Regards
Malas nak kayuh basikal lagi!!
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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My bike was put together from parts that I found in the garbage. A frame here, wheels there, some handle bars from somewhere else.....I wanted to ride
around Toronto this summer and take a oud to play, especially to a river that runs through the city. The water is polluted, but the river basin and
vegetation are beautiful. I want to try going there at night to play the oud and write some music to see the effect of a totally different and
probably scary setting. I know it sounds a bit strange, but sometimes it can be good to scare ourselves.
Cheers,
Roy
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Zulkarnain
Oud Junkie
Posts: 667
Registered: 1-14-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
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Hey Roy,
That's awesome how you put your own bike together. I wanna do that to build me a chopper, but I don't have the guts nor the time.
Mike
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Zulkarnain
Oud Junkie
Posts: 667
Registered: 1-14-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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wow! Mike...you can build a helicopter from scrap?? How bout the engine part?
Zul
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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
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hehehehe...zul, you make me laugh so much man. you have got to be the biggest comedian on the forums bro. i love it. No, not a helicopter, but I want
one of these my man! Look below.
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Zulkarnain
Oud Junkie
Posts: 667
Registered: 1-14-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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...go and sell 10 of your Shehata Oud  Dude the front wheels look
amazing!!Maybe we can have a rosettes that look similar to that huh??
Zul
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Zulkarnain
Oud Junkie
Posts: 667
Registered: 1-14-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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dude....you still need a good engine to that right??
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Brian Prunka
... It's nice of you to warn people, but it almost sounds like you're suggesting that people who can't afford $1000+ instruments are
better off not playing at all . . . |
I never suggested paying $1000 or not playing, thank you. There are decent instruments available for less. My point is that the bargain ouds are risky
and will not hold even their low price so they are often a lost investment. I'm basing this assesment on my experience since 1968 playing,
building and repairing ouds. The usual scenario is that the bargain oud will break down, is not worth the repair cost and is discarded or hung on the
wall for ornamentation. The risk to our oud community is the bad experience left with the first time user. The impression is that ouds are cheap and
unreliable folk instruments so the player moves on to bluegrass or hip hop. I recently showed my work at an exitbition of hand made instruments with
guitars, violins, harps, etc.
http://www.nwmusicalinstrumentshow.org/
Other luthiers as well as the observers were surprised to see a quality made oud. They have the impression that all ouds are crude folk instruments.
For perspective, the top guitars were selling for $10,000 and the violins topped out at $30,000 btw.
I must also comment on the $100 CD (=$73 USD) peg repair. Violin shops in the US charge around $25 per hole to replace pegs, - $40 if they need to
install bushings. Since pegs cost about $25 for 11, that leaves $48 for labor for all 11 pegs. I'd like the address of that violin repairman to
outsource my peg repair.
For chopper bikes, check this out:
http://www.northwest-chopper-bicycles.com/northwest-chopper-bicycle...
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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
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Hey Doc,
That's a great link...I dig it!
Take care,
Mike
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Richard,
The repair guy is a long time aquaintence so it seems he did me a very big favour. I had no idea it was so expensive normally. The normal price of
new pegs fitted for the oud would certainly defeat any savings from the cheap oud. If this cheap oud falls apart I'll let you know, but I'll
also let you know if in a year's time it is still stable. I think you are right, but maybe I got lucky. (so to speak)
I feel, as you probably do, that ouds are way underpriced compared to guitars and especially violins , cellos and basses. Of course as a consumer that
is to my advantage, but to builders it seems unfair.
Cheers,
Roy
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LeeVaris
Oud Junkie
Posts: 379
Registered: 12-16-2003
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: oud lover
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Comparative prices
"...ouds are way underpriced compared to guitars and especially violins , cellos and basses."
This is so true !
I spent $750 for my first oud – if it was a guitar of comparable quality it would have been $2500 easy. I think that sometimes the cosmetic finish
of the average oud can seem a bit rough. Reasonably good instruments are mostly made with hand tools without the benefit of major power tools,
computer controlled jigsaw cutting whatsits, etc.. that prominant guitar manufacturers have available for that super fine gloss that mediocre guitars
have. Mass produced guitars have a cosmetic quality that masks the tonal inadequacies - inexpensive ouds don't have this luxury! Maybe its a
design advantage but it seems that ouds in the $700- $1000 range are sonically equivalent to $2000 - $3000 guitars! Really good ouds should probably
cost $5000 - $8000
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Zulkarnain
Oud Junkie
Posts: 667
Registered: 1-14-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Lee
Regarding the $750 oud..is it the Shehata one?
Salam
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chuckerbutty
Oud Maniac
Posts: 98
Registered: 4-5-2004
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I agree with the observation that good ouds are underpriced. One of the top lutemakers here apparently saw a £1000 Turunz that belonged to somebody I
know, and said that the quality of the worksmanship was similar to what you would find on a lute costing three times as much.
Th great thing about this for the committed oud player is that he or she can afford to have a number of high quality instruments, as indeed many
members of this forum do. A good handmade instrument is usually a lifetime's investment for most other musicians.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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| Quote: | Originally posted by chuckerbutty
... good ouds are underpriced. .. a £1000 Turunz ...(has the) quality of the worksmanship was similar to what you would find on a lute costing three
times as much.
Th great thing about this for the committed oud player is that he or she can afford to have a number of high quality instruments...
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The bad thing is that few oud makers can earn a living making quality ouds. This furthers to diminish the competition, selection and development of
better instruments. This is the WTO globalization theory in action in the oud market. The price is driven down by the lowest prices, resulting in the
reduction or disappearance of the quality selection at the top. Next we'll see ouds at Wal-Mart rolled back to $29.99!. Oh Boy! And the ex-oud
maker will be working at the check out counter! The guitar and violin market have millions of players to support it, which makes more room for all
types of quality and prices. There are not so many oud players, and fewer still who recognize the value of quality it seems.
Turunz uses power tools and fixtures to make his ouds, but building by hand takes about 100 hours to produce a decent instrument. At $1000-materials,
it's less than $9/hour USD. You can make more than that at many menial jobs that require no skill at all.
I like the "rough" appearance of a hand made oud because it reveals the personal touch of the maker. Instruments made by machines have no
life force or soul in them, no matter haw precise they are. The high gloss finish common on guitars is laquer, which requires a sizable equipment
investment to avoid toxins. Most ouds are french polished, which is a rubbed shellac finish. This makes a very nice finish rather quickly, but it is
not durable and needs to be refreshed every few years. I use the Tru-oil varnish method adopted by many guitar makers. It takes about as much time as
french polish but is much more durable and flexible as well.
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chuckerbutty
Oud Maniac
Posts: 98
Registered: 4-5-2004
Location: Scotland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: |
The bad thing is that few oud makers can earn a living making quality ouds
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Yes, unfortunately that's very true as well.
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billkilpatrick
Oud Junkie
Posts: 563
Registered: 1-3-2004
Location: italy
Member Is Offline
Mood: what?
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it occurs to me that the attitude you have towards your oud and how much you want to spend on it depends a lot on what you plan on using it for.
i have a cd by a algerian named cheikh salim fergani. it was one of the first cds i came across and i bought it solely because it was there and i
could lay my hands on it. he sings and plays and one of the interesting things about him is his pokey little andalusian oud - looks like it might be
a "starter" instrument. (i hope he doesn't read this.) there's a photo of him as a younger man in the liner notes and a photo of
him as he is now on the cover and in both photos he is playing the same oud. imagine that, your whole life with the same instrument... it isn't
one of those knock-out, "awsome" ouds - (god i hate that word..."awsome oud, dude..." gak) - he uses it mainly as light
accompaniment and not much else. the thing is, he can really play and i don't need to hear $1000+ worth of melodramatic, cavernous sounding
reverberations to recognize that he does.
my own interest in the oud came from wanting a cheap lute to play medieval european music on. i'm sorry to say it and i've learned a whole
lot more about the instrument since then but it's the truth. both the ouds i own were gifts but i don't think they cost very much.
thing is, if i were to compare what i have now to what a medieval musician of the sort that i'm trying to emmulate had then (pilgrim songs,
harvest festivals, etc.) i think either of my instruments would be so far superior - in terms of construction and sound - to anything he could
possibly even dream of playing.
there are times when i wish i had a really expensive instrument but, i'm glad to say, it doesn't last long. would my playing
improve?...maybe, but i doubt it. would my wife love me more because i don't sit and watch tv with her in the evening as much as i used to and
have taken to playing a $1000+ oud in the spare room instead of the $100+ oud i play now?...i don't think so guys...
i think instruments are way over priced. i appreciate it takes a lot of time and expertise to make an oud and there's no way that i could do the
thing myself. but what we've all got our arms wrapped around is a wooden bowl with a neck and strings and any variation on that - no matter how
much it cost - is just fine, thanks. naturally, if i were a professional musician i'd want the best that money could buy but as it is, the oud
in my hand is just fabulous; much better and much more enjoyable than the any of the instruments you see in photos.
- bill
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zeyad
Oud Addict
Posts: 47
Registered: 9-22-2003
Location: Ohio
Member Is Offline
Mood: love the oud
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Dear bill,
I am glad that you like you Oud, but, how can you tell that your Oud is "fabulous; much better and much more enjoyable than the any of the
instruments you see in photos."?
Zeyad.
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mahaprana
Oud Admirer
Posts: 8
Registered: 4-16-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Bill,
I think that it is fantastic that you love your instrument regardless of the price. Having an instrument that you bond with is essential. I have an
old German shop fiddle that is very special and it cost about $100. It is great for Southern Mountain music. I have a funky banjo that I play all the
time that didn't cost much more. However, I must disagree with your notion that instruments are way overpriced. The amount of time, energy and
expertise that goes into making many types of quality instruments when it is broken down into hours often finds the luthier working for less than
minimum wage. It is a profession that is fueled by love rather than money. I have several friends who are top of the line guitar builders. Their
instruments cost between four to ten thousand dollars. Super expensive sounding but they only make about 8-10 instruments per year. Deduct materials
and shop costs and they aren't driving around in Ferraris if you get my drift. It's the beat up Honda and domestic beer.
Also, does a better instrument make you play better. In a word...yes. Sure you can play well despite your instrument's limitations (and there are
always exceptions) but a wonderfully crafted instrument lends itself to greater enjoyment, deeper inspiration and increased proficiency. Ease of
tuning, ease of playing and wonderful tone can only increase the pleasure and desire to play and that can only make one a better player.
Ouds in particular seem rather cheap on the spectrum. I can buy a top of the line oud for about $1000. A top of the line violin...more like $20,000 -
30,000. Guitars...you are looking at at least $3500+ and wood is getting scarcer by the day. We won't even talk about cellos.
Again, you can play fantastic music on an inexpensive instrument and we all need to choose what we spend our hard earned cash on, but in my experience
one can never go wrong with having the best instrument that you can afford. Considering as well that a well made instrument can last a lifetime of
playing..
peace,
-Josh
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sydney
Oud Junkie
Posts: 579
Registered: 12-9-2003
Location: Down Under
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bastanikar
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Hello Josh
That Lecture of yours is absolutely fantastic mate...... Honestly you are too good.
Emad from Sydney
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