joseph
Oud Maniac
Posts: 62
Registered: 6-22-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Can the oud be converted into a lute?
Has anyone tried it using a lute's removable gut frets and lute strings? I would be interested to know.
I have a cheaper spare oud that I don't use much, and I'm getting quite interested in learning about early Western music, but I don't know if the oud
can be used a lute. For example, is it similar in scale length, and the width of the fretboard to some early renaissance lutes?
Thanks
Joseph
|
|
|
DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Joseph
You could certainly tie frets onto it but it wouldn't really be a lute - Ouds are much more heavily built, to operate at higher string tensions and to
be played harder with the risha. European lute music starts getting interesting when it moves from a plectrum to playing with the fingertips in the
early renaissance. It gets really interesting when the polyphonic potential of this new technique is fully exploited, particularly by Francesco Canova
da Milano. I've tried playing some lute music on an unfretted oud and you just can't play hard enough to get into the proper dynamic range of the oud.
A lute is built like an eggshell and really picks up delicate playing well, but, as you probably know, it's always a very quiet instrument. Even if
you can get your mates to be absolutely silent, it still demands quite hard attention to really hear. The beauty of the lute is that, being quiet, if
it's played well, it almost "sucks" the listener in - quite nice to have an oud to play then. when you're tired of all that subtlety and fancy a good
honest blast.
The other problem might be the width of the fingerboard, as you mention. There's a lot of playing adjacent strings on the same frets, for which you do
need a bit of space, though having frets helps because you don't have to put the two fingers exactly in the same position on the fingerboard.
Farhan Sabbagh has a track at the end of his CD (I don't remember the title, but I think there's only one) called "luth medieval", which is actually
in a renaissance style. I'm not sure how he did this, but I remember reading somewhere this was a "specially adapted" oud and I think he still plays
with a plectrum. For me, this didn't really work (though I love the other pieces on this recording).
Anyway, why don't you have a go and see what happens? And post the results.
|
|
|
DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
PS - enjoyed the very thoughtful posts you were making a while back. Please keep it up!
|
|
|
charlie oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 694
Registered: 11-19-2007
Location: Newcastle upon tyne. UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: chords prefer frets
|
|
Hi Jo, I would go along with what Dave says. The 6 course European lute is about half the weight of the oud and is strung (bass to treble) G C f a d
g. It is a fine instrument and if you are serious I would consider buying one. A good quality lute is far more expensive than a good quality oud but
there are makers and second hand instruments which are affordable. There is not much point in playing the lute unless you play fingerstyle as plectrum
style lute is more or less obsolete. The Italian ricecare and fantasias from around 1510 to 1560 are outstandingly beautiful especially those by
Francesco da Milano as mentioned by Dave and are notated in tablature. By all means try a conversion by tieing on frets, the scale length is the same
(60cm) but you will need much lighter strings if you take it up to lute pitch, i.e.0.45 for the top g. Good luck
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Just for information - the lute that I regularly play has an overall string spacing at the nut of 38 mm over six courses (single treble and the rest
double) - using Pyramid lute strings at a tension of 2.5 - 3 kg for each string of the double courses and a bit higher tension for the treble. You
will likely have to experiment a bit to arrive at the optimum string tension etc.The length of the nut on an oud will be a little narrower than on a
lute but by fitting a new nut you might be able to gain a little extra in string spacing - particularly when using the small diameter Pyramid lute
strings. Nevertheless many original lutes had quite narrow string spacings at the nut - so a lot will depend upon personal preference and size of
fingertips.
I use graduated gut frets - reducing in diameter in stages from the nut end of the fingerboard to the bridge end - largest diameter 0.9mm down to
0.6mm. Equal diameter frets (say 0.8mm in diameter) can also work. Some adjustment to the nut height may be required to provide the necessary string
clearances over the frets (by shimming under the nut) - as well as possibly some adjustment in string height at the bridge. Gut frets are better than
nylon as they are easier to tie and do not cut into and wear out the strings prematurely.
Lute and oud soundboards are similar in construction and weight so the oud will likely respond O.K using fingerstyle technique. The lute should be
played with fingertips - not long nails as would be the case for a classical guitar player - hence the need for the low tension, purpose designed,
strings.
A good lute should be easily heard in a small room or hall with good natural acoustics. It should have a 'cathedral like' resonance - responding to
even slight external vibrations. Nevertheless, the playing dynamic for a lute should range from the 'sound' of absolute silence to the maximum volume
possible - sometimes difficult to achieve in these noise polluted modern times! Your oud likely will not be so resonant - but, as already suggested -
you can always upgrade to a better lute in future if you wish. Good luck.
|
|
|
patheslip
Oud Junkie
Posts: 160
Registered: 5-24-2008
Location: Welsh Marches
Member Is Offline
Mood: smooth
|
|
I use my oud as a plectrum lute tuned as an oud but with tied frets for extra attack. It's great for noisy dance music bashed out in competition with
gittern and flute a bec.
I'm pretty sure that plectrum lutes lasted into Elizabethan times and that not all early music was sweet and low. There's room for the raucous in
the renaissance.
(Don't tell anyone, but sometimes I take the frets off and play it properly, but not when anyone's listening. )
|
|
|
pirsultan
Oud Addict
Posts: 34
Registered: 1-23-2007
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
As has already been suggested the oud works really well for playing the medieval plectrum style western lute repertoire. When I played early music 20
years ago or more I fretted up an old Egyptian oud very effectively. The action was high so it required no adjustments and actually made the whole
thing more sensible to play.
If you want to see just how effective this can be try and get a hold of recordings by Thomas Binkley and the Studio der Fruhen Muzik, particularly one
called Estampie which has a large band using fretted ouds and kanuns (qanun) etc playing 14c Italian instrument music - and is brilliant. You can see
a picture of the late Tom Binkley and his oud here http://www.music.indiana.edu/som/emi/tba.shtml
|
|
|
joseph
Oud Maniac
Posts: 62
Registered: 6-22-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Can the oud be converted into a lute?
Hi,
Thanks everyone for the great replies, and outlining the differences. At this stage, I just want to experiment to see if I would like the instrument,
and if I could play it, but then I don't want to condemn the instrument just because my experiment is wrong! The best solution would obviously be to
rent an instrument and experiment, but there is not such an early music instrument shop near me. There are lots of music shops selling thousands of
the same type of guitar! I also read that the guitar can be played as a lute by altering the tuning, just to learn some lute repertoire, so that' s
another possibility for initial experimenting.
By the way, this question is part of a broader question about learning musical instruments. Since attending the Arabic music retreat, I saw the
benefit of learning in groups as part of small ensembles, and how that is superior to individual learning. Unfortunately, I don't know of any Arabic
groups near me that play classical Arabic music. I'm looking for something amateur and casual as I don't have much spare time and I'm into classical
type music, rather than popular songs. There are however some early music societies in my area and these play recorders and perhaps guitars and
cellos. There are also a society that play the mandolin, and these are perhaps the most suitable, as I like early Western music and classical music in
general besides Arabic music. This interest in early music has increased recently after I attended a concert for Simon Shaheen and Paul O'Dette at the
guitar festival in Adelaide, Australia. I also happened to pick a CD lately called Viol Dreaming - TheMarais Project by an Australian consort led by
Jennifer Ericsson, which I really loved, and I highly recommend. It would be great if any instrument that I chose has some transferable skills from
the Oud, but I realise that it might not be the case with the lute, because it is fretted, so now it is into chord playing.
So the other question to ask is has anyone been through a similar experience, and what second instrument they ended selecting?
P.S - Thanks Dave for your invitation to put more posts. I've been busy with the LilyPond updates on Arabic music lately which I think now will be
part of the next release of LilyPond, and I had to work quite hard with their technical writer to fit my updates with the LilyPond documentation, but
now that's almost done, I hope I can continue some of the topics I left open soon.
Thanks
Joseph
|
|
|
pirsultan
Oud Addict
Posts: 34
Registered: 1-23-2007
Location: Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Joseph
My advice would be to think about the early western music you really like and want to actually play. It sounds like you are attracted to Renaissance
and early Baroque music (BTW I used to know Jenny Ericsson when we were both in Winsome Evans's Renaissance Players - she's a great musician). If you
are really attracted to the Renaissance lute I think you need to try and get at least a basic student instrument. You can change the tuning on the
guitar (it only involves one string) but other than making it then possible to read the lute tabulature I don't see that you are achieving much. The
plucking style on the lute is very different from guitar - more a brushing of the strings than plucking - so the sound and the feel of the playing
will not be at all like a lute.
If on the other hand you have a liking for the earlier early music, particularly the monophonic repertoire of the 12th to 15th centuries then using an
oud (fretted or not) will work very well - as in the case of the Thomas Binkley recordings I mentioned earlier (Paul O'Dette was part of the ensemble
on that Estampie recording I mentioned).
As for other instruments to consider, I would suggest the vielle is a good choice. You can play the vielle (medieval fiddle) fretted or unfretted. I
have a very nice vielle (fretted) made by Bernard Lehmann (which was very reasonably priced too).
Paul
|
|
|
joseph
Oud Maniac
Posts: 62
Registered: 6-22-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the good advice, especially about the differences between the guitar and lute that I wasn't aware of. I will spend more time listening
before I decide on an instrument, but there is much music that I like, and not enough time to learn instruments properly. Unfortunately I did start
liking music so much rather late in life. This is just the general complaint that life is too short -).
Cheers
Joseph
|
|
|
DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi again Joseph
Your suggestion of using a guitar reminded me of something. I spent 6 years in a very lute-unfriendly clime until quite recently. I started out with
my baroque lute but had to send it home as the fluctuations in humidity were getting to the bracing. So I ended up with just a guitar. It's never
going to be the same thing, but I did find that, with a bit of a change in technique, you can get into the same emotional zone. Funnily enough, I
found a flamenco guitar actually works better than a classical for the six-course renaissance repertoire. This may sound surprising since they're
generally built for a more brash style of playing but they're built more lightly and have a faster response and a more delicate, silvery tone, when
played gently. I still played with the nails (as with an oud, fingertips just don't give you enough purchase) but found it worked quite well. Just
tune the G string down to F sharp and you'll have the same intervals as a lute. If you want to get up to the most common lute tuning, which is G-g',
use a capo on the 3rd fret. However, I generally found this sounded a bit thin on the guitar and the sonority was better with the capo on the 2nd.
(The capo also helps get over the problem that some lute fingerings are a bit difficult for people with lazy fingers such as me using the full guitar
string length.)
Overall, my gut feeling would be that this would work better for the fingerstyle renaissance repertoire than a converted oud, though, as others have
said, if you want to go for medieval plectrum style, the oud is your best bet.
Just to repeat myself and charlie though, the renaissance lute repertoire around the mid 16th century really is a garden of delights. As the lute was
the main classical instrument of the time, you can go on exploring for ever. The music is of as high a quality as any written in the western tradition
in any era and its relatively unknown, so you can feel very self-satisfied in your arcane specialism. It's quite a special feeling to read tablature,
sometimes in facsimiles of the original, and hear the notes come out as intended by the composer nearly 500 years ago. You feel like a cross between a
mechanical piano and a time machine. My personal favourites are Francesco (as mentioned), and the great three spanish vihuela composers, Mudarra,
Narvaez and Milan. Then later on, Dowland is equally sublime, but I prefer the earlier style. If you want to get into this area, the Diana Poulton
lute tutor is a brilliant book and will, on its own, keep you out of the pub for a couple of years with very well-chosen pieces - none of your boring
dozen a day stuff here.
With Marais, you're getting into the baroque, which is a whole new world to explore (and you'll need a viol, which is beyond my ken). Happy hunting.
|
|
|
billkilpatrick
Oud Junkie
Posts: 563
Registered: 1-3-2004
Location: italy
Member Is Offline
Mood: what?
|
|
here's information on how to tie fret knots:
http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/fretknot.htm
... i tried it (still got the dents in the neck to prove it ... scars) but it wasn't a huge success - didn't sound like anything like a european lute
and made the oud sound like something less than it should.
- bill
|
|
|
joseph
Oud Maniac
Posts: 62
Registered: 6-22-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi Bill,
Wow. That's amazing that you've tried it so quickly. I had a look on the web sites, but the fret packs and lute gut strings are quite expensive, so I
thought that I need to do more research and give it more time (I did sent an email to aquila in the USA to see if I can get lute strings and fret
packs for a reasonable price, but I haven't heard from them yet - Maybe they just thought my project is crazy).
So, I'm just curious now, when you say you put frets on the oud? Did you also have lute strings, or did you just use the oud strings, and is it an
Arabic or a Turkish oud?
Maybe all of these variables make a difference too, but I must say that my expectations are quite low given what everyone had already said. Perhaps,
on my next trip to Europe or the USA, I'll look for a lute. I saw they offer lute kits on the web site which are much cheaper, but I really don't know
how hard these are to build by following the instructions, and I'm not confident at all of my ability to follow the instructions and put a lute
together.
|
|
|
billkilpatrick
Oud Junkie
Posts: 563
Registered: 1-3-2004
Location: italy
Member Is Offline
Mood: what?
|
|
joseph -
i tied frets on my egyptian made oud years ago. as i say, it wasn't a success - nothing was gained in the process and the ability to make quarter
notes and beyond was lost.
if you're dead keen to try it, use a high "e" string from a guitar - that should give you an idea.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I have never made a lute from a kit but some kits being offered these days include a pre-built bowl as well as a finished rose (as an extra) for
around $1500. This option would eliminate much of the time consuming and skilled work involved in making a lute but there would still be quite a bit
left to do in fitting and assembling the instrument. So, if you have doubts at all about your manual skills or are not interested in undertaking the
challenge (and satisfaction) of building your own lute, assembling a kit might not be a good option. Also, there is no guarantee that the finished
lute will turn out to be a good instrument (but it will likely be quite satisfactory if the instructions are followed).
The advantage in buying a lute (used or new) from an instrument retail outlet is that you should be able to verify how good (or bad) an instrument is
before you buy it. Best not to buy without trying.
|
|
|
DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The Early Music Shop in Bradford, UK, do basic student lutes for around £500 and they're well reviewed. They also have budget models for around £400
and kits for even less.
|
|
|
rootsguitar
Oud Junkie
Posts: 144
Registered: 7-12-2012
Member Is Offline
|
|
I'm having such a good time with the opposite---that is a lute converted to an oud---although I realize that's an oversimplification to interchange
the words---as I wrote in another post I cut the frets off of an Early Music Shop 8c Lute a few months ago.
Its interesting to stumble upon this archived post 5 years later.
As experiment I have been using mono-filament fishing line for most of the strings ( not the outer ones) and the 0.81 mm( 80lb test) stretches a
little different so I tried to tighten the pegs to a tension that wasn't a struggle for the instrument.
I have found the tuning ( D-GG-AA-CC-DD-GG-A-A ) is holding well & also takes the bamboo slide with no trouble( after some hours of practice
that is.)
I mostly just wanted to continue playing with all fingers ( no pick) when I decided to give the lute a try and also thought a few more courses to fill
out solo performance would fit my goals.
The wider neck of the 8c lute ( compared to classical guitar ) requires a much more " open" rt hand for sure. Been enjoying the change.
I still admire the oud greatly & with any luck I will be able to try one eventually.
---I have recently been enjoying internet access like never before and had no idea
what a sarod, a rubab, or a ruan was until very recently too.
These are lucky times to investigate music ( & digital clip on tuners too---the only trade off is SO much info available---can take up a lot of
practice time!-----regards ----TR
|
|
|
fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
|
|
After starting out on the oud learning maqamat, with a risha, I've lately been enjoying playing with my fingers, like fingerpicked guitar, and using
the tip of the index finger for strong notes and tremolo. Trying to build up a bit of a "practical chords" vocabulary. The narrower the neck the more
impractical ;-)
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Note that no matter how many courses there are on a lute, only the first six courses (occasionally the seventh) are stopped on the fingerboard the
remainder being played 'open' - so no requirement to stretch further than this with the left hand at least. Multiple courses beyond the seventh are
plucked with the thumb of the right hand extended - the hand being 'anchored' on the sound board with the little finger so that the thumb can find the
appropriate open bass strings with certainty. Also the string spacing (at the nut) on a lute with six double courses is usually significantly less
than on a modern classical guitar with six single strings. So for example on surviving lutes the overall spacing of the first six courses can range
between 33mm and 39mm - which is about the same spacing for a 6 course oud (33mm to 38mm). This compares with a modern classical guitar spacing of
43mm to 45mm.
The closer string spacing of the lute may seem too close for someone graduating from guitar to lute but is necessary for some of the more advanced
lute (and vihuela) repertoire where a fingertip may have to stop more than one course (as a partial 'barré') and where long stretches of the left
hand are required. Narrow spacing is also necessary on the larger lutes (some with over 90 cm stopped string length) where great stretches of the left
hand are necessary.
The strings on a lute - at least from the beginning of the 16th C - were plucked with soft fingertips not a plectrum (risha) or fingernails (although
there were some exceptions to the latter). The smallest of the lutes (mandolinos) could be played with either fingertips or plectrum.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
