nouphar
Oud Maniac
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Glue
Hey guys,
I'm planning to lower my oud's action myself. Among other things, I want to detach both nut and bridge, make the appropriate interventions, and then
reglue them. If I wanted to detach those parts again without making them any damage, I wouldn't want to use epoxy. Do you know guys a kind of glue
which allows a clean and non-problematic redetaching?
Regards.
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GeorgeK
Oud Addict
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Hi Nouphar,
I'm not an expert, but I think Hide Glue is used for these 2 surfaces.
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corridoio
Oud Junkie
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hi nouphar
search in this site hide glue and you will have all the advices
ale.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Hide glue is the best to use, although some modern synthetic glues have been developed that don't creep. But - I'm curious what "interventions" you
are planning to the bridge? The common cause of high action is the angle of the neck, not the height of the bridge. The condition contributing to this
angle is the warping of the oud body due to string tension. Removing the bridge is risky and not very effective for lowering the action - it has only
a small effect and even so places the strings closer to the face, inhibiting volume and mizrab stroke. The top nut is also only slightly effective to
lower the action other than the first position height. The strings grooves can be filed lower without removing it anyway. The height should be 1/2 - 1
mm above the fingerboard at the top and 3-5mm at the neck joint.
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
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Hi Raul- Dr Oud has some good points there. As for the nut, you can get away without any glue at all to hold it in place, or very minimal. The nut
will be held in place very nicely by the tension of the strings going over it. good luck with your project and let us know how it goes! MW
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carpenter
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The Dr is right - I'm betting on the neck angle.
Glue-wise:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.htm...
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
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clamping down the bridge?
Hi Doc and Jim- I've been thinking about Nouphars idea of removing the bridge and then the thought came to me- suppose you do take the bridge off nice
and neatly. Then you go ahead and fix it back in place with hide glue. Wouldn't you need to clamp the bridge down for best results? Without having the
oud's top off, how would you go about clamping the bridge down? Are there special clamps that one would use? The sound holes seem a bit far from the
bridge, but could you clamp it from any of the sound holes? Are there special clamps to use? regards. MW
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nouphar
Oud Maniac
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
Hide glue is the best to use, although some modern synthetic glues have been developed that don't creep. But - I'm curious what "interventions" you
are planning to the bridge? The common cause of high action is the angle of the neck, not the height of the bridge. The condition contributing to this
angle is the warping of the oud body due to string tension. Removing the bridge is risky and not very effective for lowering the action - it has only
a small effect and even so places the strings closer to the face, inhibiting volume and mizrab stroke. The top nut is also only slightly effective to
lower the action other than the first position height. The strings grooves can be filed lower without removing it anyway. The height should be 1/2 - 1
mm above the fingerboard at the top and 3-5mm at the neck joint. |
Guys, thank you a lot for your replies.
Dr. Oud, you did say it, neck's angle is the most determining factor of the action of an oud. In my case, the instrument suffered from warping at the
upper third of the neck since the pegbox-neck joint gave away, so a very visible crack developed in that joint. I've proceeded to put some transparent
epoxy there and, with the help of hook-end straps for car roof I've secured an straight neck posture till the epoxy cures - I will give it a week.
Then, if I am still not satisfied with my oud's playability, maybe I will do the "interventions" I'm thinking of - nut removal and lowering, bridge
removal and new hole plugging, fingerboard leveling and finally nut and bridge gluing.
Thank you all again.
Regards.
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corridoio
Oud Junkie
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Hi Matthew
as I know, in this cases you have to use the c-clamps, there are different sizes and shape on market (expensives..)
if you look on some luthier's tools web site you can see some.. and obviously on dr.oud book it's all well explained..
Ale.
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Greg
Administrator
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MatthewW
Hi Doc and Jim- I've been thinking about Nouphars idea of removing the bridge and then the thought came to me- suppose you do take the bridge off nice
and neatly. Then you go ahead and fix it back in place with hide glue. Wouldn't you need to clamp the bridge down for best results? Without having the
oud's top off, how would you go about clamping the bridge down? Are there special clamps that one would use? The sound holes seem a bit far from the
bridge, but could you clamp it from any of the sound holes? Are there special clamps to use? regards. MW |
Here is a special clamp designed for this purpose by Master Faruk and his partner Suat (shown at his lathe in the second photo).
There is a good picture of this clamp in action here:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7260#pid453...
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by corridoio
Hi Matthew
as I know, in this cases you have to use the c-clamps, there are different sizes and shape on market (expensives..)
if you look on some luthier's tools web site you can see some.. and obviously on dr.oud book it's all well explained..
Ale. |
Hi Ale
is this the type of less expensive c-clamp that can be used for clamping an bridge to the oud without removing the soundboard?
thanks, MW
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000DD1TC?tag=fretnotguitar-20&camp=1...
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Hi,
the periodic contraction and elongation of the string along the direction of the string is one of the essential parts of the sound production of the
Oud and of every lute with the traditional kind of bridge - in contrast to the 'free floating' bridge, where the transversal vibrations are the
essential ones.
With the lute the bridge itself acts as a kind of lever transferring the vibrations to the sound board.
(BTW this is also the case with classical guitar, which is largely underestimated. As rule of thumb, everything else same the guitar with the higher
bridge will have more substance and volume).
By lowering the bridge you might improve the action slightly, but at the cost of changing the volume and the sound of the oud - not worthwile, because
it won't be better!
Lowering the nut helps only with the first haf tone and with the general feeling of playability, but if you overdo it you might get some nasty
buzzes.
If the Oud has any value to you, please don't do it - check all the other possibilities. It's certainly the neck that needs the adjustments...
best regards
| Quote: | Originally posted by nouphar
Hey guys,
I'm planning to lower my oud's action myself. Among other things, I want to detach both nut and bridge, make the appropriate interventions, and then
reglue them. If I wanted to detach those parts again without making them any damage, I wouldn't want to use epoxy. Do you know guys a kind of glue
which allows a clean and non-problematic redetaching?
Regards. |
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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| Quote: | Originally posted by MatthewW
Hi Doc and Jim- I've been thinking about Nouphars idea of removing the bridge and then the thought came to me- suppose you do take the bridge off nice
and neatly. Then you go ahead and fix it back in place with hide glue. Wouldn't you need to clamp the bridge down for best results? Without having the
oud's top off, how would you go about clamping the bridge down? Are there special clamps that one would use? The sound holes seem a bit far from the
bridge, but could you clamp it from any of the sound holes? Are there special clamps to use? regards. MW |
If the bridge is fitted properly, hide glue will bond without clamping. To fit the bridge you need to lap sand the bottom of the bridge - hold a piece
of 80-100 grit sandpaper ,rough side up on the face at the bridge position and rub the bridge back and forth until it filts exactly on the face
surface. Primer-glue the bridge bottom and the area on the face and let it dry. Then apply thinned hot hide glue to the bridge bottom only and hold it
in place until the glue gels, then leave it untouched for 48 hours. Excess glue can be rubbed off when it first gels, or later by softening with some
warm water and scraped with a wooden scraper without any damage to the face.
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Hi there, maybe the whole issue is outdated, but as far as special clamps are concerned, there is a great choice of clamps at http://www.stewmac.com, which is i.m.h.o a great shop for instrument tools.
best wishes
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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I saw one of these at Ace Hardware the other day, and it was 50% off too!! 
Faruk's jigs and fixtures are always a treat to look at. Building an oud in Faruk's shop must be real fun. I'm just waiting for a less painless way of
making bowls.
About gluing bridges. I think a special clamp through the hole is the best way, and it can be much simpler than Faruk's for us who don't have the
magic of Suat. A wooden cam clamp with auxiliary pads can work fine. You can also do a rub joint as Richard suggests, but I don't 't do the sizing
coat. If your subsequent coat isn't hot or wet enough, and your size coat is too thick, you will have problems. This is a technique for those skilled
with hide glue. A very quick way to glue the bridge (and I've done it several times with great success) is to use a go-bar deck. I place the whole oud
inside the deck and make a rabbeted caul that fits over the bridge. The go-bars are not too strong, but just enough to put a good amount of pressure.
You are pressing against the soundboard here, so you must keep it light. I fix the bridge position with a piece of tape on the back of the bridge,
flip it over (the tape acts like a hinge) heat the bottom of the bridge a little with an iron, slather on a generous coat of hide glue with a brush
thats just as wide as the bridge footprint, flip the bridge down and press quickly watching for liquid squeeze out, then place my caul and the
go-bars. The beauty of this technique is it allows 360 degrees of unobstructed access around the bridge for cleaning the squeeze out right away.
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