ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Help Identifying 2 ouds
Those 2 ouds don't have labels, I haven't seen them in person so I don't know the dimensions.
May be the forum's "collective memory" would be able to identify them.
The first oud looks egyptian for me, may be a Farouk Shehata, it reminds of the Maurice Shehata owned by Jameel, the inlay design on the fingerboard
and the circle and squares around the soundhole are the same -but less refined and detailed- than Jameel's oud :
http://www.arabicouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6021#pid3...
It's just a guess, any ideas ?
|
|
|
ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The second one is more mysterious and somehow more interesting, it looks smaller and the inlays design is spiky, the fingerboard is deep black, the
bar on the pickguard is unusual.
Syrian, or may be even Turkish ?
|
|
|
zalzal
Oud Junkie
Posts: 747
Registered: 12-9-2005
Location: Nîmes France
Member Is Offline
Mood: still alive
|
|
these ouds, and specially the inlays, evocates to me the oriental christians, like greek, orthodox, byzantine, not african christians like copts, not
asian christians like armenians .
I just suddenly imagined them played in churches acompanying choirs.
BTW do the oud accompany choirs in oriental churches???
(just guessing)
|
|
|
SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Nice ouds!!
i think the first one could be Gameel Georges,
Zalzal,
technicaly speaking the only instruments allowed in the ceremony most eastern churches are the and cymbals and the triangle. and in the case of many
only the chorals and voices are used.
now days many churches *mostly the ones that follow the pope of the vatican*
are using the organ like most roman catholic churches.
this being said, many tarateel are sung using oriental instruments. but they are not present during the offices. Tarateel are not part of the liturgy
but are religious odes.
here is a great example of tarateel from my own denomination.
http://www.marcharbel.com/cantatas/cantatas.htm
|
|
|
ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I was sure that I've already seen the small rosettes design on oud1, now I remember, this was the big rose design of the oud in Jdowning "Restoration
of egyptian oud" serie. Another egyptian connection.
For me it seems that this design is a representation oh the "Lyra of Hermes", if it is, it would be more of a freemason symbol than christian.
http://www.arabicouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6878#pid4...
|
|
|
ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Regarding oud 2, and as pure SPECULATION, I found some interesting common points with Karibyan, in terms of overall shape, small rosettes design,
bridge and pegbox shape.
The size of the central hole is however bigger, could it be because of the repair that took away the central rose ?
The opinion of our turkish and turkish oud experts friends would be really appreciated, but also comments and speculations.
Karibyan on left, oud 2 on the right, the lower roses picture is from a pic of 2 Karibyan that was posted by Jonathan
|
|
|
ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Pegbox:
|
|
|
zalzal
Oud Junkie
Posts: 747
Registered: 12-9-2005
Location: Nîmes France
Member Is Offline
Mood: still alive
|
|
A Michael Moussa oud owned by Raabiah with similar "Tree of life" design inlayed in the fingerboard....
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7735#pid485...
|
|
|
zalzal
Oud Junkie
Posts: 747
Registered: 12-9-2005
Location: Nîmes France
Member Is Offline
Mood: still alive
|
|
I think the fingerboard of the first oud is representing the HOM or tree of life which in Orient takes the form of a palmier with two symetrical
fruits hanging.
|
|
|
jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Nice work ALAMI.
Note that the geometry of oud #1 (as roughly measured from the posted image), is very close to that of the 14th C Arnault de Zwolle oud/lute (but
slightly more elongated). Note also that the sound hole diameter is 1/3 of the body width at the centre line of the soundhole - as dictated by the
Arnault geometry.
The Hermetic 'lyre' design of the small sound holes (if that it what it is) seems to be in agreement with the earliest of the lyres (three strings).
The 'five string' version on the rosette of my Egyptian oud would seem to be an attractive possibility also. Either way, any Hermetic link might make
strong case for Egyptian provenance?
|
|
|
ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
<edited to correct an error>
So, regarding oud 1, we have:
- The oriental Tree of Life on the finger board identified by zalzal, the tree of life is considered by the Eastern church as a prefiguration of the
cross, the same design is also found on a recent Michel Moussa oud,
- the -possibly-"lyra of Hermes" design found on jdowning egyptian oud It may be originally a hermetic symbol, which was common in Egypt, but it is
also possible that the use of this symbol has become common as a music related ornament.
- Samir guessing that it can be a Gamil George (a syrian christian established in Egypt)
- a strong ressemblance with Jameel's Maurice Shehata oud.
Those elements are hints to a christian egyptian oud maker.
What I was also able to know that for the last 35 years they were owned by a musician and that he got them "used" from another uncle-musician.
For oud #2 we are still waiting for an opinion from our Turkish Usta(s) friends.
I made the Karibyan speculation based on very few elements and would really like to hear if it is at least possible even if this kind of wild guess
can be called "Pirates of the Karibyan"
|
|
|
Greg
Administrator
Posts: 926
Registered: 7-22-2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Serene
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by ALAMI
.... even if this kind of wild guess can be called "Pirates of the Karibyan" |
Bravo! 
|
|
|
hamed
Oud Junkie
Posts: 293
Registered: 1-18-2005
Location: Seattle, Washington
Member Is Offline
Mood: Iss'al rouhak
|
|
I agree with Samir that oud # 1 is probably Gamil George, the shape of the oud is very similar to other georgy ouds, also the pickgaurd.
|
|
|
zalzal
Oud Junkie
Posts: 747
Registered: 12-9-2005
Location: Nîmes France
Member Is Offline
Mood: still alive
|
|
In the Michael Moussa oud it is the "tree of life" design of the fingerboard which is very similar to oud 1 here, not the "lyra of hermes" as i
wrongly stipulated in my last two posts, which i just edited.
|
|
|
ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 643
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Sorry zal I got mixed up, I edited the above post and corrected the error, I've looked to hundred of pics the last few days.
In fact I found a few pictures of Gamil George ouds and 2 of them have a back with exactly the same veneer design and colors.
In fact I am asking myself (and all of you) a more general question:
What is the right approach to link a oud that has no label to a certain maker, and at what point we can say that we have enough elements to be
affirmative ?
Do luthiers have a "signature" embedded in their work ? in the timbre of their ouds ?
How the identification works for another instruments, guitars or violins ?
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
