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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Sellers with a Good Reputation
Over the past few weeks, there have been a number of new ouds being offered for sale on this forum. To be perfectly honest, I'm a little worried
about getting ripped off. When I purchased my first oud from a member of the board, I did a seach on his name just to get a feel for his reputation.
It helped that he had about a million posts.
I'm putting this thread out there just to see if there is an appetite for keeping a list of people who sell ouds and have a good reputation.
Chris Walters
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I have bought an oud from SamirCanada - oud was well packed and arrived in good condition. It was sent from Canada to the US. I would buy another
oud from Samir without question.
Palmyrami has had a poor reputation in the past. They made some changes to thier staffing and promised to do better going forward. I bought a $400
Sukar oud from them and it arrived safe and on time. "I" would feel confident buying another oud from them - but I would recommend that you read all
the feedback about them to get a good feel for thier reputation.
Chris Walters
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Viken Najarian and Faruk Turunz are also reputable manufacturers and sellers. Sandi (from Cankaya music) is also an additional person that would be
reputable to buy from. Maurice Shehata also has a good reputation and comes with PERSONAL recommendations from Mike.
And let us not forget our other members, like Jameel Abraham!
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corridoio
Oud Junkie
Posts: 184
Registered: 3-11-2007
Location: Italy
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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look at this list with web links provided by Greg months ago
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=6564#pid402...
note:
-Samir Azar website doesn't work now, we are waiting for news..
-Yaroub Fadel website has changed in http://www.yaroubfadhel.com
ale.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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Some other boards have policies in place to prevent abuse of "for sale" forums:
you have to have filled out your profile with your real name, etc. to post, or only people with at least 10 (non-spam) posts can put something for
sale, etc.
I don't know if it's necessary at this point, but as the forum grows it might be something to consider (if Mike wants to/has time).
I feel the forum has been a great community, so I'd like to see it keep the relaxed attitude, but it's a drag when people try to scam here, or just
post the same ad repeatedly.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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I think that mikeouds.com should ban commercial sellers from opperating on the forrums. Like you says Brian its a dragg when the first post someone
does is something like:
we build ouds, what do you think of our sound!???!!
its the best no!?
buy from us NOW!!
But then to make things worse... when no one responds they keep littering the forums with more of their threads.
I would like to commend Greg who acted well as a moderator for the site.
When someone is acting dishonestly they should be immediatly called out and dealt with.
The buy or sell ouds forum should be for members and members only.
preferably from participating members obviously.
Of course anyone who has been here for a few weeks will be able to recognize the difference between someone who is a contributing member and someone
who is trying to shamelesly exploit a gap in the market by pretending to be oud experts while being totaly clueless about the instrument.
They are scum and Fugueses... we should get rid of them since they are a drag on the community and they have no place here.
I am starting to think we may be at the point that there should be a probation period where if you act dishonestly or are just there to scam/take
advantage of the comunity then your toast no questions asked.
or even make new memberships invitation bassed only. but we may be punishing others for the actions of a few crooks.
This should be a forum for people of good character with genuine interest in the instrument and the music.
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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The good reputation of a seller means that it's not the first time he sells a oud on the forum.
May be a new seller would have to offer guaranties, more than a recognised one.
My last experience ( see " new ouds sellers " post ) tells that when a damage comes , then we can know the quality and the serious of the seller. I'm
sure that most of recognised sellers on this forum are able to take the hand when there is a problem at the oud reception.
May be it would be a good deal to pay half price when order, second half after receive. So the risks wouldn't be only for the buyer. With this way , I
would have lost 350$ instead of 700$, and the seller would take his responsability....
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Perhaps having a forum oriented buyer-seller rating would be beneficial? For example, a star rating system displayed regarding their buy/sell
performance, like on amazon?
It could be the case that people would leave their old ID to come with a new one, but, the IP address can be blocked by either an admin or Mike.
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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You know, maybe a POLL would be beneficial in this case. Everyone can see it, view the transaction, and then have a rating so that the people would
see how worthy a seller would be. Furthermore, it might be beneficial to delete and/or move the older topics (deemed as junk) off of the current
forum?
We cannot let con artists take over what Mike and the rest of the community have worked so hard to built protect!
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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It is also a good indicator to see the percentage of posts made in the forum overall (for example, some members are certainly 100% in the Buy &
Sell section).
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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I am not in favour of the rating system.
The forums are not a comercial hot spot to sell instruments.
Selling ouds here should be reserved for members who have some ouds to sell from time to time. selling and buying ouds isnt what mikeouds is about and
that has to be clear.
its about a family, a comunity of genuinely passionate and honest people.
if somebody is proven to have scamed another member, then they would be banned untill the issue is resolved. this has happened in the past.
and it would be the last time anyone would buy something from them. Is it worth it really to pull off a one shot deal and get 1000$ from scamming
someone.
Your reputation is ruined after this and the forum members/moderators would advise against anyone from buying from him ever again.
From reading the forums and getting involved in the comunity as a member you can tell who is here to stay and who is a scam artist. You can also ask
the other members what they think of buying a oud from person x.
when a member got scamed out of money by another crooked member a few years back, the rest of the members stood up and gave that person money to try
and compensate.
let the commercial sellers battle it out on Ebay and Amazon. Thats where they belong not here.
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Monawar Al-Jabar
Oud Junkie
Posts: 118
Registered: 1-16-2005
Location: Newcastle . UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: playing Oud
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The best thing is that we know who is the real i would recommend that the seller need show what type of oud he is selleing and some video clips and
the Buyer would need to get some recommendation from the right people in this forum and as someone said pay have of the money and the rest when the
oud arrive . Or the seller agree's to refund the money mineus the p+p this way the real selle won't have any problem with. 
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Monawar Al-Jabar
Oud Junkie
Posts: 118
Registered: 1-16-2005
Location: Newcastle . UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: playing Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SamirCanada
I am not in favour of the rating system.
The forums are not a comercial hot spot to sell instruments.
Selling ouds here should be reserved for members who have some ouds to sell from time to time. selling and buying ouds isnt what mikeouds is about and
that has to be clear.
its about a family, a comunity of genuinely passionate and honest people.
if somebody is proven to have scamed another member, then they would be banned untill the issue is resolved. this has happened in the past.
and it would be the last time anyone would buy something from them. Is it worth it really to pull off a one shot deal and get 1000$ from scamming
someone.
Your reputation is ruined after this and the forum members/moderators would advise against anyone from buying from him ever again.
From reading the forums and getting involved in the comunity as a member you can tell who is here to stay and who is a scam artist. You can also ask
the other members what they think of buying a oud from person x.
when a member got scamed out of money by another crooked member a few years back, the rest of the members stood up and gave that person money to try
and compensate.
let the commercial sellers battle it out on Ebay and Amazon. Thats where they belong not here. |
I agree with that 
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I agree entirely with Samir canada, also.
I think this topic is closed to the one I open a few days ago:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8118
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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......but now I'm still judge and jury, I don't forget this particular situation!
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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After reading Samir's post, I remember how the forum used to be in the beginning. I agree with Samir and was simply trying out of frustration to bring
justice to a member that was wronged.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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your right to do this Nadir,
but now you remember what the forums used to be and I have to say I am nostalgic about that.
Ultimately the waste of space they create from the conflicts and stupid adds and all that is what kills people's enthousiasm.
Ultimately when and if you decide to buy from a fly by seller.
There is nothing we can do.
Anyways now something needs to be done to ban all comercial sellers who participate only by promoting sales and all that.
Any of the moderators ready to take it hand??
There should be a statement along the lines of:
Effective sept 22nd all commercialy interested oud resellers will no longer be permited to advertise on the forums. You are advised to conduct your
sales outside of the forums on websites intended to do so. The use of the buy-sale forum in mikeouds.com is reserved for genuine honest and active
members of mikeouds.com and is not to be used by a oud reseller solely interested in profits. failure to comply will see your posts deleeted and your
account privileges revoked.
thank you.
this is nothing official just my 2$ as a member.
Mike,
Greg or Victor...
interested to take action on this?
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GeorgeK
Oud Addict
Posts: 46
Registered: 7-16-2008
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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The question Samir is how you would ban such an individual. These past few months has seen a few new members pop in just to make the sale and then
quickly evaporate. For me personally, if I were to buy an Oud from a member I'd check out their number of posts...this would be their unofficial
rating.
Further, while I whole-heartedly agree with the content and spirit of your proposal, I think back to when I first started as a forum member (not that
long ago  ) and I remember reading the disclaimer in the "buy sell section". It
basically advocates some of the ideas that are brought up here, ie "obtain feedback from at least two other members
who have frequented these forums for long enough to be able to provide objective feedback...". In addition, also based on this Disclaimer, I'm not
sure that Mike (or the other admins) want to get into the policing business as it requires a lot of work and is not so fun.
My $2 worth would be to leave things as is, and to remind the members from time to time to always get feedback before making a purchase.
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hey All
Lots of $2 worth contributed. It used to be 2c. That's the credit crunch for you. I'm going to throw in my $2 too and pretty soon we might just have
enough to buy a bargain oud by a famous maker, cash upfront, amazing sound  .
The first thing I'd say is that, thanks to the incredible knowledge and altruism of many of its members, this forum actually does a pretty good job of
screening out the hoaxers. As far as I've seen, when dodgy posts come up, people are onto them like a flash, flagging up the risks and the fakes for
the less experienced of us. Kudos to you .
Second thing is, the reverse applies to the hoaxers themselves. Oudselling is not going to make anyone a millionaire. If you want to earn big bucks by
cheating, join an investment bank (oh...oops ). Trying to sell a $50 oud for $500
is a pretty dumb wheeze, as wheezes go. I mean honestly, some of these recent scams look like they originated in Nigeria! In the oud world, if you
stay honest and you have some talent, you might just scrape a decent living. So pretty much all the long-termers are genuinely passionate about what
they do.
Now, I realise the temptation to say no to commercial sellers - the idea that someon might actually be taken in by one of these fools makes me really
mad, and I respect Samir's nostalgia for the time when the forum was small enough to trust people more. But I also think this is now THE English
language place on the internet for all things oud, and everyone knows this. That's a good thing, but it's bound to attract some chancers too. On the
other hand, some of the commercial sellers who come on here contribute a lot, and I'm talking about makers AND intermediaries. If they do contribute
their knowledge, i don't have a problem with them getting a little publicity out of the deal. As others have remarked, if you follow the forums for a
little while, you get and idea for who knows what they're talking about, and if on that basis people go to a seller, I think that's a good thing.
Sellers play an important role in keeping us abreast of new developments, technologies and innovations.
Secondly, administering some sort of screening system would almost certainly be an awful lot of work for the moderators and I don't think they have
the time.
So while I think there might be an argument for banning sales by short-term members, I'm not sure how it would work. Overall, I think I favour
individual responsibility and collective good advice. As someone pointed out, the disclaimer pretty much covers everything you need to be warned
about. That, combined with the vigilance of the core membership is hard to beat. People are still going to get burned every once in a while, but that
will happen anyway on ebay etc. Buying an oud over the internet means you can get some good deals but it's an inherently risky business and people
undertaking it should have taken a conscious decision to accept that risk.
Sorry, I've gone on a bit and I'm not even on topic. Good idea to keep a list of trusted sellers.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2916
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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Like you, Samir, I remember how the forum used to be and miss it.
However, I do think that it is potentially valuable to everyone who is in the community to have people be able to buy & sell ouds. It helps
everyone in the long run, and I don't see an easy way to ban "commercial" sellers only.
Faruk Turunz is a commercial seller, as was Haluk Eraydin. Yet they contributed a lot to the board and obviously have an interest in the oud above
commerce.
Should they be prevented from selling ouds here? I don't think so, but part of that is that they are very restrained in their commercial activities on
the board. It can be hard to find good or reasonably priced ouds, so it helps to be able to make deals here. The amount of interest this topic has
generated seem to indicate that a lot of us feel the same way about the commercialization of the forums.
Some suggested rules:
1. you can only post specific ouds for sale, not general advertisements (no "hey look at our great ouds!"
2. That you can't repost the same instrument repeatedly (though maybe allow people to bump a post after a week or two)
3. that for sale posts must include an asking price; if you want bids, go to ebay
4. That the individual selling the oud must identify him/herself. (In their profile, including real name, location, contact info).
5. No links to one's own ebay ads (possibly a member with good standing could point out an ebay post that they think would be of general interest, or
to ask others if they think it's worth purchasing)
6. At least 10 meaningful posts before one is allowed to post in the buy/sell section (this prevents people from simply registering a new name)
7. That buy/sell posters will be held to a stricter standard of propriety in the way they respond to questions/complaints about their products (e.g.,
no name-calling if someone says your fake sukar oud is fake).
All of these ideas are taken from similar forums for other instruments; I don't know much about running a forum, but I would think some of these could
be automated and not require a lot from Mike and Greg. The rest could be implemented by the rest of us flagging messages/users that ignore the rules.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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Brian thats a great step forward.
could we say that commercial resellers should be banned from posting. The ones that have nothing to do with the construction of the oud but just make
a margin from exploiting their connections in the middle-east.
they are present on ebay so let them stay there.
Makers such as Faruk Turunz, Nazih Ghadban, Veysel, Samir Azar, Haluk Eraydin (rip) and company.
have helped develop the forums trough their posts and trough sharing their knowledge. They are very much contributing members of the boards like any
other members. They are valuable members with a lot of knowledge and they do not shy from sharing it with us.
If you have ever noticed these are people that let their work speak for itself. Have you ever heard any of these respected luthiers slander another
maker's work? NEVER thats why they are respected and considered to be the creme de la creme.
I firmly believe that by getting rid of resellers and commercial opportunists. We can have a trustful useful oud community again.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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OK, this isn't going to go over very well, but. . .
I think it's fine the way it is.
Mike's not taking any responsibility for any of the postings. By limiting the forum to only certain sellers, he would be essentially giving them a
stamp of approval.
Let the buyer assume the responsibility, and do their homework.
For what it is worth, I have ordered ouds from the following four members of this board, and in each case, they exceeded my expectations.
Cengiz Sarikus (Veyselmuzik)
Dincer Dalkilic
Peter Kyvelos
Faruk Turunz.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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Johnathan you give nice examples of people who are great makers and stand up honest members.
I can tell you something thats a problem is that the above people you mentioned very rarely advertised themselves as sellers.
Also the idea is for banning opportunist resellers the members you mentioned are all respected luthiers.
Take Veysel Music for example, at the beginning they where not sure what this forum was all about. But you can tell they understand now what this
forum is about and they contribute by sharing pictures and knowledge of their ouds.
it is True, people should do their homework but then again when the information to warn them of a seller is buried 3 years ago, its hard for them.
when one of those resellers places a generic add like, we have the best ouds come by from us.
or even worst when they make believe like they know what they are talking about, then people get duped for the simple reason which is:
experienced members know better to even bother with them and just brush it off but no-one responds something like.
these are resellers they are ripping you off HARD and your better off getting a oud from a respected maker or a respected member.
you know why they dont respond anymore? Its because it has gotten to be a drag and people dont care to answer the same old question again and again.
They are too many adds to many shady people that where accepted and tolerated and people dont look out for each other anymore.
Jonathan you remember how it was in the beginning and its definitely since we are allowing greedy people to do business here that its like this.
I am for Brian's idea.
Also proportionally the forum kept growing for years now and the number of moderators is no longer sufficient.
Oudman, (Victor) as been Awol for a bit perhaps he no longer has the time to get involved with the forums.
I think we could have another 3 moderators and it wouldn't be too too much.
Mike can chose them obviously at his discretion.
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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dreaming
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Another 2cents. Being a relative newbe to Mike's Ouds, at face value, I tended to trust postings from sellers on this forum than say, E-bay. I see
this forum as a place for experts and those of us who look to the experts on this forum to educate and mentor us in our magical oud journeys. I want
this forum to remain a special place in cybespace where profit is not the motivation, but a genuine passion for the music and instrument. That being
said, if a reputable builder or genuinely passionate collector like OudProff wants to sell on this form, then its a benefit to us all. I might be
able to find some incredible instruments I'd never be able to find elsewhere. But when a commercial non-oud player, non musician seller describes an
oud as "this took long time and lots of efforts to make", they do not belong here. I think there should be a guideline and screening process for
sellers. What it should be, I' don't know, but I do know that I don't want the likes of Oud_Man or Palmyrami on this forum. They can stay on E-bay.
We'll call them if we want them.
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 733
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
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I agree with Brian and Samir.
I don't think resellers should be allowed to post "their" ouds for sale and I don't think people should be able to create threads in the buy/sell
forum until they have accumulated a certain number of posts. Like most others I do see luthiers in a different light than resellers... although Haluk
is the only actual luthier I can remember who actively advertised his ouds on this site. Mike would occasionally give everyone heads up on Shehata
ouds but it's been a long time since that happened.
In my opinion this site has always been, and should stay, about our love for the oud and not a way for businessmen to get free advertising.
One possible suggestion I will make is perhaps a sticky thread with a *listing* of resellers. This list would be maintained by a moderator and would
simply have a name, url, and brief description of ouds offered. I suppose this could also list active luthiers with the same information. It would
be nice to keep it a rather short list because so many luthier's internet presence seems to come and go.
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