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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I believe that Brian has definitely pointed us in a better direction, further refinement of the regulations may very well decrease the negative
activities in this forum.
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MatthewW
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1031
Registered: 11-5-2006
Location: right here
Member Is Offline
Mood: Al Salam
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greetings all- this is a topic whose time seems to have come, as we see more and more fakes,scams, various problems and less honesty and integrity in
general being shown by some people selling ouds.
my £2 worth of thoughts on this:
perhaps one more thing that we could consider doing to help protect ourselves and newcomers to this forum looking to buy a good oud is that when a
member of the forum has had a bad experience or serious problem with any oud seller, he/she can list the name of the seller and the nature of the
problem in a special place in the forum, sort like we have a special FAQs section.
If the seller makes good the problem then the name can be removed, but this way others can see who to avoid, what the problem(s) were and what to look
out for.
Take the recent case of oud_man and the ongoing case that Francis is having at the at this very moment: he bought an oud from a new seller, it got
damged in transit, the seller was supposed to have it insured for $700 and made all promises to Francis but so far not one penny has gone to francis
for repairs. The name of the seller and the nature of the problem could be noted in the forum. If the seller makes good on the situation then it would
be removed:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8118
Perhaps this idea can be taken up, looked into and improved upon by the administrators of this great website, along with the other ideas brought
forward by others.
best wishes, MW
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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That does not make any sense, let us also see what Francis has to say about this. It seems we have chased another false seller out of the forum as
well.
To be honest all of these people can be caught, since they have made IDs on mikeouds.com there is an internet code that Mike gets and can send it to
the authorities that can get a hold of them.
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Chris, this is a VERY good thread that you have started.
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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What is your address in Switzerland and Germany?
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I see above that Abdelaal Hassanin could change my oud, if he wants to be serious.
He told me , when I bought "my" Nahat copy oud , it was the last he has. Now another one comes in his home.
It's a curious decision that saying I don't post anymore ouds before the affair is over with the last post. When a problem appears, forget it ( don't
resolve ) and go on giving ouds to sell in the forum.....
Abdelaal said the oud he sent me in the last days of august was insure for 700$, after he has tried to say in this forum that I broke my oud
myself....
He never send me the paper which can prove the oud has been insured, may be there is no paper....
After the damage , I asked him for to options:
-first: a free exchange of the oud .
-second: money to cover the repair of the oud.
I never obtain satisfaction . He just answer that he send me the insurance money if the insurance believe me!!!
I don't know if speaking about Abdelaal is important now. I don't think he is able to take his responsabilities, sure he doesn't want.....He has my
money, that's ok for him, he can go on selling ouds, and here, in this forum.....This fact doesn't let any doubt about his integrity and his
motivations.....
That's a part of what I have to say about this , to give and answer to Nadir's post.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8118
Sorry, I know my english is poor, and may be it is not easy to understand why I try to say. It will be easy for me in french, but I think that a
minority of people on this forum understand french.
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Pictures of ouds for sale that Abdelaal post above in this topic have been removed.
Abdelaal himself, a moderator?
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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You know, it's like the forum has hit critical mass and now everybody and thier brother is coming out of the woodwork trying to make $$$ from our
community.
For example, THIS was posted today. Now this guy may be on the up and up... but he's come onto the boards to sell ouds and gives NO information about who he
is... He has no reputation here... On one hand, I say let the buyer beware, but on the other hand - in reading about what's happened to Francis and
seeing the influx of oud sellers with 6 posts - I think it would be great if we could have some more structure in place to limit the exposure to this
sort of thing.
When I bought an oud from SamirCanada... I figured I had some level of protection because if the deal had been shady, he had made over 1,500 posts --
so he obviously had an interest to maintain his repuation on the board - so there might be some consequence if he ran off with my $$$ in terms of his
reputation here...
Reputation is what these guys do not have...
Chris Walters
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dubai244
Oud Junkie
Posts: 490
Registered: 3-8-2004
Location: Dubai, UAE
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi,
I totally agree with "Black List" idea or what ever you decide to call it. and to keep it simple, personally, i never buy oud from unknow person or
maker. Since i joined this great forum, i never have any kind this of problems simply because i dont deal with unknow people and i do a very throu
search about the maker or the seller then i decide if i want to order or to but the oud, most of the time i dont get enough informations so i dont buy
or order at all.
Lately, i have seen so many new oud makers posting there products pictures in this forum. Personally, i believe it is very good because you can see
the options availabe to you when you want to buy new oud and you can see what is the new in the market. Without these posts, i will never know that's
there are new makers exist in this world. and from these posts, you might see new idea's, new oud decorations, new kind of woods that never been used
before for oud ........etc.
Having saying that, I would never buy oud from these people simply because i dont know them and i have no idea who they are and no body is FORCING me
to buy from them.
I have seen some posts from members talking about "insurance" that the maker or seller have to provide for the custemer. Lets be reliastic, These new
makers, they barly make money, so i dont expect that these maker will give you any kind of insurance if the oud got damage. When i order some thing
from them, i am totally responsible about my decision. So please dont plam others for your mistake.
Last thing, if you want good quality oud from good maker or seller, you have to pay the price, otherwise, if you are looking for cheap prices then you
will end up with cheap people. (no offend to any body with respect)
Mike, please kindly add "Black list" section or what ever you want to call it, to this forum to avoid all this headache.
Thanks
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I think the Black List idea creates a whole new set of problems.
Look back on that list of 5 makers that Samir mentioned on page 1 of this post. I think that we would all agree that every one of those luthiers is
top-notch.
Yet in previous years, at least 2 of them have had absolutely horrible things written about their instruments. I think that many of you remember at
least one of these instances--the poster has been banned, as well as all of his aliases. The posts have probably all been taken down by now. Would
these people have been put on the Black List?
You take a hell of a risk by buying an instrument by mail. Ask for references. Contact others who have bought instruments from them. I've done
that, and I know that others have contacted me in the past about what my experiences have been with the luthiers.
Same thing with a "vintage" instrument. If you don't know the guy selling it, think twice. Three times. Then, if you still want it, think about it
some more.
As for the hamburglu post--I really enjoyed seeing the inside of the guy's shop, and am glad that he posted. I have no idea who he is, and therefore,
unless I could get a reference from somebody that I knew, probably wouldn't buy from him. But why should we ban him? He's done nothing wrong
Personal responsibility--that's the ticket.
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I'm with Jonathan - we've had one example recently (oud_man) which has been pretty much black and white, but there are a lot of others that would be
just too hard to call - with all due respect to Francis, his case is a tough one, and most of the really ugly incidents in the past have been over
similar issues. I don't think it's fair on the moderators to expect them to act as judge and jury when people's reputations are at stake. Of course,
if they want to take that on, fair enough. I like to see what people are offering and I don't think it's fair to tar everyone with the same brush that
oud_man obviously deserves.
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I agree with the personal responsability, but I don't use to consider all the people I don't know as possible dishonest people, not much as great
people....
I'm not a very young man, I'm not a new musical player, except on the oud. It seems to me that personal responsability concern everyone in his
acts....in our case, the buyer and the seller in the same degree....
Sorry, I don't use to live in a world in which everyone distrust everyone, with the exception of friends or recognised people....At first, I respect
the guy who tells he is a seller as a seller, with the responsability closed to this job....
May be I'm wrong when doing like this, but the world I hope to meet is not organised around suspicion.
So, It can be said I'm not responsable when buying a oud to Abdelaal. At first, I'had good feedbacks about these ouds here in the forum and around.
Second, the no-responsable people seems to be Abdelaal, no?
I didn't protect myself ( my money, that's different ....) against him, no confusion please.
This is my 2c contribution, after a empty 1000$ one, that's enough for me......ne tirez pas sur l'ambulance, les gars!
( a friend explains me today the meaning of 2$...2£..2 cents.....in french we say : une réflexion à 2 balles......)
Salut à tous,
Francis
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3404
Registered: 6-4-2004
Member Is Offline
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its not about making a tough call or not.
its about not allowing random people to sell ouds here when the sole purpose of being here is to make $$$. If you dont have a minimum of posts and
your not interested in contributing to the forum other then make making money of of it then you should come and take advantage of the comunity.
this is why.
1- it litters the forums with useless posts
2- there is no protection so its better off to stick to ebay
3- people interested in ouds monitor ebay anyways and so they will let eachother know of something interesting.
the issue is not against having them write and participate,
if they want to show pictures of their shops and if they want to contribute to discussions and if they want to defend their reputation their is
nothing wrong with that.
what is a drag are the shameless addverts and the hord of resellers that are using the forum just cuz its there. They have no clue how the forum
works, they post their junk in the wrong threads etc... I could go on and on.
Utimately, it is what is killing the forum spirit.
There is an ebay, an amazon or whatever else site you want to buy from where you get protection and ratings etc...
we can avoid this mess here and talk about ouds and music.
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Samir has it exactly on.
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Christian1095
Oud Junkie
Posts: 454
Registered: 4-29-2008
Location: North Carolina, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Indeed - I agree with Samir...
Chris Walters
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Amos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 405
Registered: 3-26-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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SamirCanada mentioned the time a few years back when someone got scammed and the community helped him out with money...that was me, when I was sold a
useless damaged Shehata under false circumstances. I have never forgotten how grateful I felt and still do, to this community and I agree that
commercial sellers do not belong here. Its true that most of us can tell a scam artist right away and I think that we all need to be sure to give
our advice/support to people posting "I want to buy an oud" posts and to keep a suspicious eye out for people who are selling crap or posting
commerical ads. I think we do a good job of this already and I am proud of all of us a group...several friends of mine have safely bought ouds on
this forum, and I would like to help that continue.
People like Mavrothis and Jonathan are great sources for Turkish oud info (history, purchasing info, credentials for vintage instruments, etc.) on
this board, I have had great exchanges of info with them, and I have heard great things about SamirCanada too. Thats just a few names of so many
honest and knowledgeable oud lovers here.
Amos
Our music is like an ocean...
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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
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I appreciate everybody's fervor in regards to this matter. It sucks to get screwed. The fact that Francis is getting this kind of support from a bunch
of people who more than likely have never even met each other, but are taking the time and effort to show how much they care is what continues to make
these forums what they are. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do or am willing to do at this point in regards to commercial sellers on the forums.
My only advice is to read the disclaimer thread carefully, and follow it's instructions. http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=1973
When you think back about it, we only found out about folks like Sandi Sandettin on the Oud Home Page forums. Then we got to know folks like Faruk,
Nazih, Dimitris, and many others on here. I hope there will be more and more in the future. Ultimately peoples true colors come out.
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I agree with Samir, also.
And I understand Mike's post. This great forum ( in which I'm a new member ) has a past, an history made of amazing experiences . The forum is growing
up and some dishonest sellers want to use his reputation for their business...
Mike didn't create this forum to get a police control job. I agree that he recalls this by the link of the initial thread .
The forum has to be regulated by each member, we don't have to ask this regulation to Mike...
This topic is full of ideas which help us now. We can gently get different opinions and feelings and this is good . May be we will agree about little
changes in the forum to "protect" some new guys here.....At this time , it belongs to Mike to say if this is in the forum spirit.....
Another 2 balles worth ......
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Encore deux balles de ma part: very insignificant suggestion: maybe the disclaimer title could be strengthened to read something to the tune of:
SCAM ALERT: READ THIS BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT BUYING.
Great news about our new moderator. I'm sure this will help. Francis, I really hope you can get some satisfaction. I certainly believe that if
Abdelaal can go the extra mile for you, it will help him a lot in this forum in the long term.
Good luck to all and soyez prudents!!
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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As a said before, I got punished by ordering an oud to Abdelaal......
It doesn't matter for Abdelaal, he just explains why I won't get anything....He is not personnaly concern by this, he will not have to help from
himself.....I don't agree with this attitude, too expensive for me and easy money for him.
And we know he actually belongs the same oud model for selling....The will to help is just in the words . Words are free....
All what I said before, in other posts of this forum, don't tell nothing else.
Each one can built his own opinion about such a seller's position.....
I think that now I will stop to repeat this ..... I don't want to use this forum just for this story. I'm not in ease with all this posts these last
days, somewhere I have a part of responsability and i'm not sure this is the more interesting topic, even if it is an important one. During this time,
music is far....
When this oud is repaired, it could take a long time for me to play it quietly, without the weight of this sad story...
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Abdelaal should be banned from ever coming here again.
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Nadir. I understand why Francis is upset, but given we don't know the facts, maybe it's best if the rest of us avoid inflaming things more.
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Dave H,
I think all the main facts of this story are in this forum ( read above and with the links ), from my opinion, from Abdelaal's opinion....from members
opinion.
A lot of ink has flowed about ....
If I add that the oud differs from his description : wenge bowl instead of palissander, different keys, different bridge, six part face ( = cheap
spruce? ), really thick ( an no traditional ) varnish.....
If I add ( but I don't want to, without his agrement ) what contains some Dr Atef's mails ( who deceive who? ).
I could also say more about this "swiss connection", but you can read the posts in "buy&sell" , have a look to the pictures......
I'm not a judge. I believe that what I said is enough for each one who wants to get his own opinion.....
I don't want to inflame things more......that's enough ( and probably too much ).
Salut à toi.
Francis
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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To end with this story.
This story takes most of me free time since one month; it takes each time a long moment for me to write in english ( I only use english , my
pre-scholar english ) on these forums.
That's why I believe that it's time now to end it.
I conclude by this:
I ordered this oud for 625$ + 52$ shipping. I paid a lot of banks charges because The seller was in a hurry to be paid. I paid 108 euros ( 150$ ) for
the custom charges. At all, 987 $.....
The oud will be repaired for 598 euros ( almost 1000$ ).
I don't think Abdelaal gives any dollar to me ( he didn't even send me the insurance paper, so I can't have any proof ).
This oud will coast almost 2000$.........really a cheap one.
With this money i'd better have order to Maurice Shehata or Nahzir Gadhban......
My position in the forum is very uncomfortable with this story, that's not what I want to give as my contribution. I prefer to speak again about
music.
Many thanks to all members who helped me.
This is a great forum and I love it........long long life....
Francis
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nadir
Oud Junkie
Posts: 329
Registered: 12-29-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I would also like to say that while the facts are reported from only Francis, Abdelaal himself has not logically made any justification or
acknowledgment for his actions or what he can do to amend it.
I have also asked for an address and have not received any response from Abdelaal, publicly. Also, Abdelaal has DELETED many of his posts or EDITED
them.
This is not inflammation but rather justification. I will personally not stand for a seller that has been robbing other members be present in this
forum. Abdelaal is clearly acting in an illogical manner for an honest seller and consistently with a dishonest one.
We all know what he has done, yet none are calling for action. Simply ignoring the problem does not make it go away.
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